Trump being racist again. Immigrants "infest" the country

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
So then if context matters, would this change anything?



Its that quote as racist as "These illegals are infesting our country"?

Yes it is, because the statement implies that illegal immigrants are creating a crime problem when they are not. Illegal immigrants are only creating a crime problem if they commit crime at a higher rate than do citizens. Yet statistics say illegals have slightly lower violent crime rates, and slightly higher property crime rates, than do citizens, more or less evening it out. If illegals have a similar crime rate, then the per capita crime rate remains the same no matter how many you let in.

When he makes that statement using the word infest in reference to illegals and crime, he is most definitely stating that being permissive of illegals will increase crime because these illegals tend to be criminals, which so far as we know is a factually untrue statement based on a stereotype rather than on reality. Trump always tries to make his case for illegals bringing higher crime with anecdotes like MS13 or that shooter in San Francisco rather than with actual data. That's because his audience buys into preconceived racial stereotypes such that anecdotes work with them. They don't require any real data.

Combine that with the connotation of infest, and yes, it's definitely racist.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yes it is, because the statement implies that illegal immigrants are creating a crime problem when they are not. Illegal immigrants are only creating a crime problem if they commit crime at a higher rate than do citizens. Yet statistics say illegals have slightly lower violent crime rates, and slightly higher property crime rates, than do citizens, more or less evening it out. If illegals have a similar crime rate, then the per capita crime rate remains the same no matter how many you let in.

When he makes that statement using the word infest in reference to illegals and crime, he is most definitely stating that being permissive of illegals will increase crime because these illegals tend to be criminals, which so far as we know is a factually untrue statement based on a stereotype rather than on reality. Combine that with the connotation of infest, and yes, it's definitely racist.

Two flaws. First is that being ignorant of data is not inherently racism. Many people think recycling plastic and glass is good, but the reality is that we probably should not be with our current methods. That is ignorance. Now, ignorance can lead to malice and when that happens for race it becomes racism. What is likely happening in my opinion is that letting in people that would not otherwise be here increases the incidences of crime even though the rate goes down. So, if you have natural born citizens committing at a rate of 3/100, and immigrants commit the same crime at a rate of 1/100, then you will have more incidents and less of a rate. This is the lesser point though

The second is that his statement does not imply that immigrants tend to be criminals. He is saying that if you let in everyone, regardless of how bad they are, then you will get an infestation like MS13 is an infestation. People often speak in imperfect ways, but, saying they and then saying like MS13 after saying "no matter how bad they might be" shows an attempt to split them between okay and not okay. I get that you probably will disagree, but had this been said by someone other than Trump, it would be easily defensible. If you want to say that technically he said something wrong because of the technical meaning of his words, then it should stand alone. If you have to bring in his past, then you have to admit that the words do not inherently convey what is being argued.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Two flaws. First is that being ignorant of data is not inherently racism. Many people think recycling plastic and glass is good, but the reality is that we probably should not be with our current methods. That is ignorance. Now, ignorance can lead to malice and when that happens for race it becomes racism. What is likely happening in my opinion is that letting in people that would not otherwise be here increases the incidences of crime even though the rate goes down. So, if you have natural born citizens committing at a rate of 3/100, and immigrants commit the same crime at a rate of 1/100, then you will have more incidents and less of a rate. This is the lesser point though

Good thing that is your lesser point, because it's pretty weak. A POTUS has no excuse making statements about crime among an immigrant population in ignorance of the actual data and statistics kept by an agency of the executive branch over which he presides.

Not only is there no excuse, but likely there is no actual ignorance either. Trump has undoubtedly been briefed on the statistics, if not by someone in his campaign, then by someone in the White House. I refuse to believe he doesn't know. He is likely making his case with anecdotes knowing that it is wrong but that his base will accept the anecdotes and believe it anyway because they are predisposed to.

The second is that his statement does not imply that immigrants tend to be criminals. He is saying that if you let in everyone, regardless of how bad they are, then you will get an infestation like MS13 is an infestation. People often speak in imperfect ways, but, saying they and then saying like MS13 after saying "no matter how bad they might be" shows an attempt to split them between okay and not okay. I get that you probably will disagree, but had this been said by someone other than Trump, it would be easily defensible. If you want to say that technically he said something wrong because of the technical meaning of his words, then it should stand alone. If you have to bring in his past, then you have to admit that the words do not inherently convey what is being argued.

If you let immigrants of any national origin in, you will bring more crime, and including possibly some individual gangs or other kinds of criminal conclaves. Like the entire Russian mob, for example. So what? Total crime is irrelevant. Crime per capita is the only thing that actually matters, because that is what determines, you know, your actual chance of being a victim of it. Compare a tiny island nation with 1000 people in it where 50% are felons to a nation of 1 billion people where 1% are felons. Which one is the more dangerous place to live? I think even an 8 year old would get the correct answer to that one.

Since the logic of "more immigrants equals more total crime" is transparently absurd if the rate of crime isn't higher among these immigrants, I can only assume he means that the rate is higher or else what coherent point is he even trying to make?

So far as "bringing in his past," I don't think that is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is that we know this is the POTUS making the statement, because at least a little context is needed. Yet, we will of course consider his past. We're all like the jury who saw the evidence that was subsequently ruled inadmissible. Our collective bell has already been wrung, and it isn't going to unring because you want to rule certain things inadmissible for purposes of discussion.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Good thing that is your lesser point, because it's pretty weak. A POTUS has no excuse making statements about crime among an immigrant population in ignorance of the actual data and statistics kept by an agency of the executive branch over which he presides.

Not only is there no excuse, but likely there is no actual ignorance either. Trump has undoubtedly been briefed on the statistics, if not by someone in his campaign, then by someone in the White House. I refuse to believe he doesn't know. He is likely making his case with anecdotes knowing that it is wrong but that his base will accept the anecdotes and believe it anyway because they are predisposed to.



If you let immigrants of any national origin in, you will bring more crime, and including possibly some individual gangs or other kinds of criminal conclaves. Like the entire Russian mob, for example. So what? Total crime is irrelevant. Crime per capita is the only thing that actually matters, because that is what determines, you know, your actual chance of being a victim of it. Compare a tiny island nation with 1000 people in it where 50% are felons to a nation of 1 billion people where 1% are felons. Which one is the more dangerous place to live? I think even an 8 year old would get the correct answer to that one.

Since the logic of "more immigrants equals more total crime" is transparently absurd if the rate of crime isn't higher among these immigrants, I can only assume he means that the rate is higher or else what coherent point is he even trying to make?

So far as "bringing in his past," I don't think that is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is that we know this is the POTUS making the statement, because at least a little context is needed. Yet, we will of course consider his past. We're all like the jury who saw the evidence that was subsequently ruled inadmissible. Our collective bell has already been wrung, and it isn't going to unring because you want to rule certain things inadmissible for purposes of discussion.

Then you need to have to admit that its not inherently racist, and that its the context of it being said by Trump.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Two flaws. First is that being ignorant of data is not inherently racism. Many people think recycling plastic and glass is good, but the reality is that we probably should not be with our current methods. That is ignorance. Now, ignorance can lead to malice and when that happens for race it becomes racism. What is likely happening in my opinion is that letting in people that would not otherwise be here increases the incidences of crime even though the rate goes down. So, if you have natural born citizens committing at a rate of 3/100, and immigrants commit the same crime at a rate of 1/100, then you will have more incidents and less of a rate. This is the lesser point though

So, do you really think Trump meant anything like that? If not, it's just obfuscation.

The second is that his statement does not imply that immigrants tend to be criminals. He is saying that if you let in everyone, regardless of how bad they are, then you will get an infestation like MS13 is an infestation. People often speak in imperfect ways, but, saying they and then saying like MS13 after saying "no matter how bad they might be" shows an attempt to split them between okay and not okay. I get that you probably will disagree, but had this been said by someone other than Trump, it would be easily defensible. If you want to say that technically he said something wrong because of the technical meaning of his words, then it should stand alone. If you have to bring in his past, then you have to admit that the words do not inherently convey what is being argued.

So dishonest. Trump isn't trying to split between OK & not OK. He's lumping them together, making a point to include MS-13 in the narrative.

Let's dissect the whole tweet-

Democrats are the problem. They don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country, like MS-13. They can’t win on their terrible policies, so they view them as potential voters!

Democrats don't care about crime. False.

Democrats want illegal immigrants to pour into the country. False.

IIlegals are an infestation like MS-13. False.

Democrats want illegals as potential voters. False.

He didn't tell any lies that his devotees didn't already believe. Bullshit your way around that all you want.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,697
25,022
136
Progressheviks really don't have much value add outside of calling people racists, bigots, and phobes.

If you find the truth uncomfortable you should look within for the change you so desperately need. Your shame is what has made you so angry.

Shame at being so ignorant. Shame at your dislike for your fellow human beings. Shame at your inability to empathize with others. Shame at your inability to maintain relationships because your personality is toxic.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Then you need to have to admit that its not inherently racist, and that its the context of it being said by Trump.

Nope, you appear to have missed this sentence:

So far as "bringing in his past," I don't think that is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is that we know this is the POTUS making the statement, because at least a little context is needed.

I clearly said nothing about his past is necessary to deem the statement racist. Giving a little context by knowing it is a POTUS making the statement isn't really adding much. The remainder of that paragraph just says that of course we're going to take his past into account anyway, because it's impossible not to.

In any event, even if you happened to be correct, that the statement only becomes racist in light of the totality of all his statements and behavior, I'm not sure what value you think that point has. Analyzing a statement in the abstract with no real world context is an academic exercise which doesn't carry much weight in any serious political discussion. It kind of sounds like you want to go through the exercise of analyzing a statement in isolation because you think you have some point you can use to "win" an argument even if it involves arguing over something which is frankly not that important.

There's no need to look at a statement out of context when the context is known and relevant to interpreting the statement. We're not arguing over abstractions and semantics here - we're arguing about an actual POTUS of this actual country and his actual behavior, because those things actually matter.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Nope, you appear to have missed this sentence:



I clearly said nothing about his past is necessary to deem the statement racist. Giving a little context by knowing it is a POTUS making the statement isn't really adding much. The remainder of that paragraph just says that of course we're going to take his past into account anyway, because it's impossible not to.

In any event, even if you happened to be correct, that the statement only becomes racist in light of the totality of all his statements and behavior, I'm not sure what value you think that point has. Analyzing a statement in the abstract with no real world context is an academic exercise which doesn't carry much weight in any serious political discussion. It kind of sounds like you want to go through the exercise of analyzing a statement in isolation because you think you have some point you can use to "win" an argument even if it involves arguing over something which is frankly not that important.

There's no need to look at a statement out of context when the context is known and relevant to interpreting the statement. We're not arguing over abstractions and semantics here - we're arguing about an actual POTUS of this actual country and his actual behavior, because those things actually matter.

Saying that illegals are an infestation is to dehumanize them. It's bigotry no matter who says it or when.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Nope, you appear to have missed this sentence:



I clearly said nothing about his past is necessary to deem the statement racist. Giving a little context by knowing it is a POTUS making the statement isn't really adding much. The remainder of that paragraph just says that of course we're going to take his past into account anyway, because it's impossible not to.

In any event, even if you happened to be correct, that the statement only becomes racist in light of the totality of all his statements and behavior, I'm not sure what value you think that point has. Analyzing a statement in the abstract with no real world context is an academic exercise which doesn't carry much weight in any serious political discussion. It kind of sounds like you want to go through the exercise of analyzing a statement in isolation because you think you have some point you can use to "win" an argument even if it involves arguing over something which is frankly not that important.

There's no need to look at a statement out of context when the context is known and relevant to interpreting the statement. We're not arguing over abstractions and semantics here - we're arguing about an actual POTUS of this actual country and his actual behavior, because those things actually matter.

Again, he clearly tried to denote that not all immigrants are equal, and that MS13 represents the infestation. Because he did not explicitly state things clearly (nobody does) you must infer racism because of his past. It is unclear unless you add in that context.
 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
67
91
Yea, Trump isn't racist. He just doesn't give two shits about anyone who he doesn't want to bang or can benefit him directly.

This is actually true. People who throw around the racism card every time Trump says something stupid, are actually doing the word a disservice.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Again, he clearly tried to denote that not all immigrants are equal, and that MS13 represents the infestation. Because he did not explicitly state things clearly (nobody does) you must infer racism because of his past. It is unclear unless you add in that context.

Leave MS-13 out of it for a moment-

"They don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country."

That's outright bigotry & lies. Mentioning MS-13 just pushes the fear button to drive the message home.
 
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Jul 9, 2009
10,723
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136

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
Leave MS-13 out of it for a moment-

"They don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country."

That's outright bigotry & lies. Mentioning MS-13 just pushes the fear button to drive the message home.

They weren't illegal -- and more importantly -- it didn't matter till they were brown.

Now?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Does anyone else find it hilarious that the little crying girls mother pictured by every lefty publication actually abandoned her husband and other 3 kids, and fled with $6,000 to illegally enter the United States? Someone call child protective services....... for the childs sake.


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-hou...media-exploiting-toddler-photo-175002249.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-face-child-separation-crisis-speaks-out.html

So what? It's not about 1 child but about thousands.

The Daily Mail?

She set out on her journey from Puerto Cortes, Honduras to the U.S. at 6am on June 3 and allegedly paid $6,000 for a coyote
.

They allegedly make shit up all the time.
 
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Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Does anyone else find it hilarious that the little crying girls mother pictured by every lefty publication actually abandoned her husband and other 3 kids, and fled with $6,000 to illegally enter the United States? Someone call child protective services....... for the childs sake.


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-hou...media-exploiting-toddler-photo-175002249.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-face-child-separation-crisis-speaks-out.html

Too bad they weren't in a tunnel you could toss a grenade into. Then you could have shown how much you truly care.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Saying that illegals are an infestation is to dehumanize them. It's bigotry no matter who says it or when.

Yes, I agree, but Realibrad is parsing the words to mean that he was somehow referring only to a criminal element among them, and not them in general. I obviously disagree with him.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Leave MS-13 out of it for a moment-

"They don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country."

That's outright bigotry & lies. Mentioning MS-13 just pushes the fear button to drive the message home.

Lol, you cant take out words and then expect things to stay the same.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Here's Trump commenting about illegal immigrants.


In case you were unaware of the definition if "infest"


Yet all you Trump stooges ignore example after example and still claim Trump is not racist.

LOL!

You call Trump and his supports Nazis but you have no idea what a Nazi really is. You need to study history. And, yes, illegal aliens do constitute an infestation.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yes, I agree, but Realibrad is parsing the words to mean that he was somehow referring only to a criminal element among them, and not them in general. I obviously disagree with him.

He's trying to change the meaning of language itself. If I say person A is an asshole like person X the names don't really matter. I still said person A is an asshole.

Trump said illegals are an infestation regardless of any qualifiers he put on it. That's dehumanizing.
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,035
5,338
136
LOL!

You call Trump and his supports Nazis but you have no idea what a Nazi really is. You need to study history. And, yes, illegal aliens do constitute an infestation.
good little propo boy. You're rolling now.
It's not like hitler used the similar terminology to rile up anger against the jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc. Nope, he definitely didn't do that.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Yes, I agree, but Realibrad is parsing the words to mean that he was somehow referring only to a criminal element among them, and not them in general. I obviously disagree with him.

I find these discussions where people twist themselves into knots to find a way in which a well known racist happened not to be racist in these particular circumstances to be tiresome and ridiculous.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,663
4,137
136
Easy to see who the pro-ILLEGAL immigration people are. I for one would rather not be a country full of illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants are a-ok.
 
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