Trump finally admits what we all knew..." I’m a nationalist, okay?"

[Jhhnn]

A couple off the top of my head: Simon Bolivar, John A. MacDonald and Bismark?

I'll give you Bismarck, although that's a matter of perspective. The winners write the History. The other two are about independence, not nationalism as Trump espouses it. We're already independent.

It's just a pitch to the mindlessness of the "Murica! Hell Yeah!" crowd. Trump strokes their erroneous zones expertly.

 

[Vic]

And?

Nationalism and white supremecy are not the same thing.
Also I have yet to hear a convincing argument why nationalism is bad.
Globalism is the far greater evil.

War is awesome, right, brah?

 

[Victorian Gray]

I'll give you Bismarck, although that's a matter of perspective. The winners write the History. The other two are about independence, not nationalism as Trump espouses it. We're already independent.

It's just a pitch to the mindlessness of the "Murica! Hell Yeah!" crowd. Trump strokes their erroneous zones expertly.

No, both Bolivar and MacDonald were nationalists. The fight for independence was part of that.

As regards MacDonald, though, it was very much a nationalism built with the terrible cost of the destruction of the Aboriginal populations and their cultures/societies.

btw, you seem terribly dismissive, even ignorant, of certain aspects of your country's history. That's unfortunate.

 

[Vic]

It seems to be a global phenomenon. Not just the wealthier or majority white countries either. It's there in Brazil, Israel, Turkey, as well as Russia and the US and much of Europe. And ethno-nationalism and/or political polarisation is happening in places like South Africa, India, Sri Lanka. It's like an infectious disease. Both leftist internationalism and capitalist globalisation now seem to be out of fashion. It feels like a partial return to the 1930s. If the tide doesn't turn the consequences are going to get quite nasty.

If unchecked, war is the inevitable consequence. Just like it was 100 years ago.
If it is good for everyone to love their own country even to the detriment of every other country, and no agenda is evil that forwards your own national interest, then where does that lead?

But agreed that it is really fucking comical to see these nationalists pretend they're capitalists. Economically, nationalism is as far away from capitalism as socialism is.

 

[Viper1j]

Trump's business empire spans the Globe, but he's not a globalist. At least not in ways that his mesmerized devotees can understand.

And, this would be why he "loves the uneducated".

 

[Jhhnn]

No, both Bolivar and MacDonald were nationalists. The fight for independence was part of that.

As regards MacDonald, though, it was very much a nationalism built with the terrible cost of the destruction of the Aboriginal populations and their cultures/societies.

btw, you seem terribly dismissive, even ignorant, of certain aspects of your country's history. That's unfortunate.

Please. The border between British Canada & the US was finalized in 1846, with minor adjustments thereafter. Refusal of native peoples or any group to submit to either govt were brutally repressed before & after Canadian independence. It was all very much White Nationalism.

I asked for examples of good nationalists & you offered up MacDonald, only to condemn him now. Can't have it both ways.

 

[sao123]

Despite the sordid history of self proclaimed "Nationalist" politicians through history. Name off some good ones.

Thomas Paine, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Locke, Winston Churchhill, Dwight Eisenhower, Joe McCarthy, Harry Truman, John F Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Ronald Regan, and several others.

 

[sao123]

Why aren't all people equal in your eyes?

Because it doesnt match with reality. There will always be people of average talent, below average talent, above average talent, and elite.

Quoting Emperor Charles Zi Brittania

“All men are not created equal. Some are born swifter afoot. Some with greater beauty. Some are born into poverty. And others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and in upbringing. In sheer scope of ability; every human is inherently different. Yes, that is why people discriminate against one another. Which is why there is struggle, competition, and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, Equality is.”

A Meritocracy would be the supreme, most desirable, and most beneficial form of sociology-economic system. Not a pseudo meritocracy based on nepotism, but one where everyone is forced to compete for every gain is the only one where men truly become the salt of the earth.

 

[Vic]

Thomas Paine, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Locke, Winston Churchhill, Dwight Eisenhower, Joe McCarthy, Harry Truman, John F Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Ronald Regan, and several others.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

 

[Vic]

And Thomas Paine was a socialist FFS.

But Locke for sure explained the motivations of the nationalist when he said, "If man in his natural state be free, as is said, then why does he part with his freedom?"

 

[Vic]

Never ceases to amaze how these statist bootlickers feign to take up the mantle of classical liberalism while rejecting its most cherished ideals, and dare claim to support meritocracy while at the same time restoring the aristocracy.

"I'm opposed to nepotism, but I'm voting for Ivanka in '24".

Fuck n A..

 

[sao123]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

No-one ever accused Thomas Jefferson of being the brightest crayon in the box... in fact im pretty sure he was 75% pure idiot.

if the "creator" that "created" said... to some I "endowed" 5 talents, and to some I "endowed" 2, and to some I "endowed" only 1, then obviously those 3 groups were not "created" equally, and Jeffersons self evident truth, isn't self evident, nor truth.

 

[pcgeek11]

Yes we do.

We do now, after the arrest. A right wing nut case with a long history of being a nut job. At one point he threatened to blow up the electric company for cutting off his power.

 

[sao123]

Never ceases to amaze how these statist bootlickers feign to take up the mantle of classical liberalism while rejecting its most cherished ideals, and dare claim to support meritocracy while at the same time restoring the aristocracy.

"I'm opposed to nepotism, but I'm voting for Ivanka in '24".

Fuck n A..

fuck classical liberalism.
the only freedom is by being in the ruling class. And only the meritocracy determines who is in the ruling class.
that's why 1940 -1990 america was bad ass and the rest of the world war 3rd world country.
Now America is a pussified blob incapable of ruling even itself because of the lack of meritocracy, we are now run by the Kinder Gentler Disneyfied Rescue Fucking Rangers.

 

[Vic]

fuck classical liberalism.
the only freedom is by being in the ruling class. And only the meritocracy determines who is in the ruling class.
that's why 1940 -1990 america was bad ass and the rest of the world war 3rd world country.
Now America is a pussified blob incapable of ruling even itself because of the lack of meritocracy, we are now run by the Kinder Gentler Disneyfied Rescue Fucking Rangers.

Well, at least you're not ashamed to admit your hatred of America and the ideals she was founded upon like so many other Trumpers are.

 

[sao123]

Well, at least you're not ashamed to admit your hatred of America and the ideals she was founded upon like so many other Trumpers are.

Obviously you have confused American foundational ideals with some other Soviet Country.
America was not founded on socialism and equality of outcome.
America was founded on equality of opportunity. the opportunity to starve if you did not get your ass a skillset and a method of providing food/income.

if your aim in life is not to emulate Mike Rowe, Cornelius Venderbilt, John Rambo, or Julius Caesar then you are just dead weight.

 

[Vic]

The weirdest thing is that America from 1940-90 was practically a socialist paradise by today's conservative standards. It had obscenely high progressive income tax rates, 90% at the top tier at one point, and spent ridiculous sums relative to GDP on public works projects (like the interstate highway system and putting a man on the moon). And provided inexpensive if not free college education to most qualified students.
But today's kids with none of that are totally pussified. Yep

 

[Vic]

Obviously you have confused American foundational ideals with some other Soviet Country.
America was not founded on socialism and equality of outcome.
America was founded on equality of opportunity. the opportunity to starve if you did not get your ass a skillset and a method of providing food/income.

if your aim in life is not to emulate Mike Rowe, Cornelius Venderbilt, John Rambo, or Julius Caesar then you are just dead weight.

Except that you already said - quite clearly - that you're against both equality of opportunity and equal protection of the laws. Both of which are the foundations of classical liberalism which you're now trying to equate to communism.
Did you miss that somehow or are you just trolling?

 

[Vic]

Is it not weird when you tout equality of opportunity and some shitjob condemns it as equality of outcome and claims to be for equality of opportunity?
Is it disconnect? Or is it just some dishonest shitjob being dishonest?

Meh, I'm going with trolling.

 

[Vic]

Gotta admit, it's fun to quote the Declaration of Independence, George Washington, and the Constitution itself, and have some 'conservative' denounce all if it as socialism and then pretend to lecture about what ideas he thinks America was really founded upon: Rambo.

 

[sao123]

The weirdest thing is that America from 1940-90 was practically a socialist paradise by today's conservative standards. It had obscenely high progressive income tax rates, 90% at the top tier at one point, and spent ridiculous sums relative to GDP on public works projects (like the interstate highway system and putting a man on the moon). And provided inexpensive if not free college education to most qualified students.
But today's kids with none of that are totally pussified. Yep

The vast majority of the GDP was spent on military operations, which if we want an imperialist america today, I'm fine with that.

Socialism is not the same as big government spending. Don't confuse me with a GWB/GHB small government fool. Government provided infrastructure jobs are perfectly acceptable. I would advocate for 104% employment rate. Every last person in this country should be working a 10 hour day job. We should be building empty cities the same way China does just to employ people. We should be putting people on the moon weekly and Mars monthly.

What is not acceptable is handing people money to sit home on their asses and have 7 kids and collect welfare, food stamps, and free healthcare. Franklin Roosevelt might as well have just stood up in the temple and declared he is Satan himself... with new deal #1 and even worse new deal #2.

If we took every dollar wasted on social net programs and put it into our military and infrastructure, America could be great again.

 

[Moonbeam]

@sao123 You have convinced me to take your side of this argument. Men are not created equally, as you have said. You have an obviously profound inability to think rationally. You are a genuine Putz.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Except that you already said - quite clearly - that you're against both equality of opportunity and equal protection of the laws. Both of which are the foundations of classical liberalism which you're now trying to equate to communism.
Did you miss that somehow or are you just trolling?

Its trolling but he also genuinely believes that. Just like UglySheep, DumbshitSpyder, who's the dipshit that rage quit a bit ago?, and well there's far too many others. Its because they've had slogans and phrases chanted at them their whole lives and are incapable of thinking about them with any real context. They hear MAGA, and America First, and think that sounds great because they get the base words (which is actually shockingly rare, but shows the power of simpletons to connect with simpletons), because they're often blindingly ignorant of context, or think its all liberal propaganda just trying to tear it down out of tribalism that makes it negative and that inherently its great and that its just leftists that are preventing it from accomplishing all the positives.

Can you imagine how they'd have to deal understanding that without foreign aid, including a flamboyantly homosexual military leader, that America probably would've got their asses kicked by the British and not won independence, and would be like Canada today. Let alone them coming to grips with the fact that without immigrants and migrants, America never becomes what it did (oh and that goes two ways, without American migrants, going to work in other countries, spreading ideals, but more importantly commerce - of course things get complicated quickly if you delve into is that entirely positive).

 

[ecogen]

Obviously you have confused American foundational ideals with some other Soviet Country.
America was not founded on socialism and equality of outcome.
America was founded on equality of opportunity. the opportunity to starve if you did not get your ass a skillset and a method of providing food/income.

if your aim in life is not to emulate Mike Rowe, Cornelius Venderbilt, John Rambo, or Julius Caesar then you are just dead weight.

You do realize that the US is behind when it comes to equality of opportunity compared to nations with more robust social safety nets right? I'll let you figure out the rest, smart guy.

 

[darkswordsman17]

If unchecked, war is the inevitable consequence. Just like it was 100 years ago.
If it is good for everyone to love their own country even to the detriment of every other country, and no agenda is evil that forwards your own national interest, then where does that lead?

But agreed that it is really fucking comical to see these nationalists pretend they're capitalists. Economically, nationalism is as far away from capitalism as socialism is.

Exactly. That they don't understand there's very good reasons that nationalism is looked at abhorrently other than by wannabe dictators and despots and morons that think they can go play soldier.

That's the thing, they believe in very narrow forms. For instance their version of capitalism is one that benefits them at the expense of everyone else. Same with equality. As long as its about giving them all the rights they want, that's equality to them. Which, yes, is obviously completely fucked in the head, because they are. The logic and reason part of their brains are broken. That can be overcome by rigorous rote teaching (which is why they're able to develop as functioning workers in society that has built that stuff up, but its also why schools wanting to teach how to learn and use logic pisses them off, because they fundamentally don't understand how to do that and it scares and angers them).