Trump finally admits what we all knew..." I’m a nationalist, okay?"

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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Because it doesnt match with reality. There will always be people of average talent, below average talent, above average talent, and elite.

Quoting Emperor Charles Zi Brittania

“All men are not created equal. Some are born swifter afoot. Some with greater beauty. Some are born into poverty. And others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and in upbringing. In sheer scope of ability; every human is inherently different. Yes, that is why people discriminate against one another. Which is why there is struggle, competition, and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, Equality is.”

A Meritocracy would be the supreme, most desirable, and most beneficial form of sociology-economic system. Not a pseudo meritocracy based on nepotism, but one where everyone is forced to compete for every gain is the only one where men truly become the salt of the earth.
So where do you rate? And by whose metrics?

And do you think you were born to that status?
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,566
24,784
136
Gotta admit, it's fun to quote the Declaration of Independence, George Washington, and the Constitution itself, and have some 'conservative' denounce all if it as socialism and then pretend to lecture about what ideas he thinks America was really founded upon: Rambo.

Sao123 is a pretty special person and was told so by his mother every day as the little bus picked him to take him to the special school.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,560
7,617
136
He sure picked a good week to come out.

The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.
 
Reactions: PrincessFrosty

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.

Putting Germany first - by holding open those boxcar doors. You are a sad clown, Tobias. Words change over time, as does the meaning of them.
 
Reactions: nickqt

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,958
18,278
146
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.

For this, you would need to ignore Trump's 40 years in the spotlight, and his pandering to white nationalists for the last few years.

Otherwise, the ignorance is willful.
 
Reactions: pmv

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,260
8,192
136
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.


I don't 100% disagree with you, but I'm probably at about 90%. What puts the 'white' in front is (a) the contemporary US context and (b) Trump's long track-record.

You are right that one could hear it as being about the 'national' interest. But its quite obvious that's not how a large proportion of Trump's supporters will hear it, and he knows that.

(I've had arguments with Hillary supporting friends over whether Hillary is a nationalist - her approach to foreign policy makes her appear as such from the outside...but I wouldn't be so inclined to put 'white' in front of the word in her case).

Anyway, I would question whether there's ever any such thing as a pure 'national' interest. Certainly it's only true in very rare circumstances. Most of the time different parts of a nation have different interests. One of the few times it's true is when a nation has been taken over entirely by another nation, i.e. been colonised, which is why the word 'nationalist' has a different meaning in that context.

But even then - just look at what almost invariably happens after an independence struggle has been won. Domestic minorities are very often the next target for the nationalists after the colonisers have been sent packing.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
Trump isn't a nationalist in ANY context except "white nationalist". He doesn't defend longstanding US policies and norms which are part of our national identity. He doesn't care for large parts of the country and openly denigrates them. He doesn't give a crap about the "Nation", he cares about his "base"!


The ONLY nationalist part about Donald is his love for whites and his belief that the US is a white nation. In every other context he is either a globalist (middle east foreign policy) or a pro-Russian authoritarian oligopolist (everything else).
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.
Of course he is a white nationalist. Where have you been? You missed minority vote suppression, attacks on black football players for peacefully protesting police brutality, his hounding of the Central Park Five and demanding death penalty even after they were exonerated, all the racist crap he pulled on blacks who wanted to rent in his buildings, the Mexicans are rapists thing?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,260
8,192
136
Reality is that the world is a zero sum game.

Have you really thought through the full implications of that?
(For a start, there goes any argument for capitalism...or for any kind of society at all, really).
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.

Don't kid yourself. Trump is doing more than that. Witness the way the migrant caravan is being portrayed as an invasion.

Yeh, sure, somebody else could use the term "nationalist" in a different way, somebody who wasn't leading the culture war.
 
Reactions: darkswordsman17

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,582
7,808
136
The hell is wrong with you posters? You guys putting white in front of nationalist. There is no inherent racial motive to standing by America's national interests. Nationalist? Exchange the word with selfish, if you must, for you to better grasp the meaning. "Putting America first" appeals to people, especially those gutted by trickle down and in desperate need of a savior. All Trump is doing is virtue signaling to them, that their needs are his campaign. That he's offering them economic protection.

It has been his populist creed since day 1. He has just chosen a new buzzword to associate with it. Then you go and attach your own meanings to it, and yell "gotcha!". You would be best served without delusion or distraction. And instead attack the stupendous failure of "America first" policy at its core. It doesn't work and we Democrat voters know it doesn't.

If we care to win an election, we had best start explaining that to people, not meekly mocking the dog whistle.

We need policy, not a doomed conflict.
Nationalism doesn't have to be white, but it does have to explicitly attempt to "shut out" "others".

"Shut out" typically occurs through torture, imprisonment, and the murder of "others".

You can play the euphemism^semantics game if you like, but the only people playing are you, and right-wing authoritarians.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
Ah, the zero sum nonsense comes out. Yeah, I'm not going to engage you more earnestly, since you're all hat and no cattle.

It's not zero sum, in fact I'm acknowledging quite the opposite. The resources you can bring to bear to solve problems and ameliorate suffering is not fixed, and it's not just a given. Those resources scale depending on how much you look after your own interests and if you put other people first then they get a short term increase in resources but when the source is neglected the output falls you have to take away the support. It's better to look after your economy and your own interests and keep increasing your GDP and offer some small portion of that GDP as aid, rather than sperging all your money on helping everyone else and crashing your own economy and then in year 2 not having any excess in the economy to give anyone.

People help others out of whatever they have left over once they've taken care of themselves and their family, that's not a controversial thing.

Why aren't all people equal in your eyes?

It's observationally true that people aren't equal in any kind of functional way. Although I don't personally think that's a good argument for nationalism per se, it just happens to be accurate.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
Because it doesnt match with reality. There will always be people of average talent, below average talent, above average talent, and elite.

And it's even worse than that, because the distribution of some traits, like creativity for example, is not at all linear. In fact it follows a Pareto distribution, which is a square root law. The square root of a number of people in a productive domain account for 50% of the output. So in a business of 10 people 3 do half the work, but in a business of 10,000 people, 100 of them produce 50% of the output. That's why C-level employees and upper management are paid disproportionally higher. If you look at wealth it follows the same Pareto distribution which is why you have the 1% owning most of the money.

In creative domains the median creative output of people is zero. This is the sort of thing you can learn from Peterson's personality lectures actually, it's extremely interesting. 2017 lectures, the last half of them all deals with the big 5 model and IQ/Creativity, it's good to learn the science and the math it relies on.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And it's even worse than that, because the distribution of some traits, like creativity for example, is not at all linear. In fact it follows a Pareto distribution, which is a square root law. The square root of a number of people in a productive domain account for 50% of the output. So in a business of 10 people 3 do half the work, but in a business of 10,000 people, 100 of them produce 50% of the output. That's why C-level employees and upper management are paid disproportionally higher. If you look at wealth it follows the same Pareto distribution which is why you have the 1% owning most of the money.

In creative domains the median creative output of people is zero. This is the sort of thing you can learn from Peterson's personality lectures actually, it's extremely interesting. 2017 lectures, the last half of them all deals with the big 5 model and IQ/Creativity, it's good to learn the science and the math it relies on.

None of which has anything to do with Trump's dog whistle nationalism.
 
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