Trump NY Criminal Trial

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
136
Non-violent white collar crime does immense damage to our country and the best way to stop it is with very harsh prison sentences. Someone addicted to drugs or stealing because they are hungry aren't deterred by prison. But super wealthy white people sure are.

How many people have died as a result of Purdue pharma's non-violent crimes? How many people have lost their life savings due to conmen and fraudulent businesses? Why don't you ask a retired 75 year-old that lost their life savings to Enron if those were non-violent crimes. We should look at the actually outcomes, I'd much rather someone threaten me and take my wallet than steal my wages for years, yet one would get you 10 years and the other is completely ignored.

I have very mixed-feelings about that. I'm pretty sure I've argued both sides at different times (i.e. I vaguely remember arguing somewhere that the rich and powerful can cause harm and benefit themselves without needing to be personally violent, precisely because they have power so can get others to do the dirty-work for them - hence people at the top can be 'charming' and personally 'nice' while still causing immense harm).

But at the same time, having endured serious harassment and threats of violence from people in my immediate environs, I don't want those people released from prison to be free to going back to making my life a misery, just to make room in those prisons for people who don't pose such a traumatic threat (and who, to the degree they do pose a threat, can be dealt with by simply removing their social, political or economic power, without having to go to all the expense and trouble of physically locking them up).

Trump is only a threat insofar as the system gives him economic and political power. As an individual he's as threatening as a clown.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
136
not really. The Nazis strong-armed the ruling party to appoint him Chancellor. He wasn't ever voted into the position. He was voted into their legislature, whatever you call it.

Don't think much strong-arming was required. The ruling elites (who hated democracy anyway) maneuvered him into power because they thought he could be used as a tool to further their own interests. They misjudged that, of course.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,251
9,319
146
Non-violent white collar crime does immense damage to our country and the best way to stop it is with very harsh prison sentences. Someone addicted to drugs or stealing because they are hungry aren't deterred by prison. But super wealthy white people sure are.

How many people have died as a result of Purdue pharma's non-violent crimes? How many people have lost their life savings due to conmen and fraudulent businesses? Why don't you ask a retired 75 year-old that lost their life savings to Enron if those were non-violent crimes. We should look at the actually outcomes, I'd much rather someone threaten me and take my wallet than steal my wages for years, yet one would get you 10 years and the other is completely ignored.
Violent offenders need to be separated from society and actually rehabilitated. Otherwise, prison sucks for everyone involved. Enron and Purdue? The perpetrators should be left destitute and sentenced to a decade of daily community service, strictly overseen and enforced.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,802
29,553
146
Somewhat poorly written, but a decent explanation of what's going to happen.

In what way are Trump's 34 convictions and what's it: 60-some remaining indictments, political prosecutions?

He is being legitimately charged with actual crimes that multiple grand juries decided he very likely committed (also don't forget that he basically admitted to all of it, multiple times).

Trump is prosecuting Trump. Don't ever fucking forget that.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,789
10,309
136
In what way are Trump's 34 convictions and what's it: 60-some remaining indictments, political prosecutions?

He is being legitimately charged with actual crimes that multiple grand juries decided he very likely committed (also don't forget that he basically admitted to all of it, multiple times).

Trump is prosecuting Trump. Don't ever fucking forget that.
100%. And for the trumpiest crimes. If Trump had simply admitted to what he'd done in both cases, there'd be 0 indictments.

"Yeah I had sex with a porn star. So what?"
"Hey sorry national archives here's your stuff back"

But Trump's unwillingness to admit to any blemish or error has finally caught up with him.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,569
12,681
146
100%. And for the trumpiest crimes. If Trump had simply admitted to what he'd done in both cases, there'd be 0 indictments.

"Yeah I had sex with a porn star. So what?"
"Hey sorry national archives here's your stuff back"

But Trump's unwillingness to admit to any blemish or error has finally caught up with him.
His ego finally caught up with him. It didn't permit him to admit fault. A narcissist insists that the world adapt to his view of things and that went great for him right up until he became extremely public as the president and was given sufficient rope to hang himself.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,996
14,506
146
not really. The Nazis strong-armed the ruling party to appoint him Chancellor. He wasn't ever voted into the position. He was voted into their legislature, whatever you call it.

Yep, the Nazi party never had more than 37.4% of the vote (curiously and terrifyingly, that's about the % of Americans who are trump cultists). In the next German election they had lost support and got just 33.1% of the vote. That was the last election before Hitler seized power by manufacturing a crisis and bargaining for the support of the German military by murdering his own private army.
 
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skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,212
5,071
146
In what way are Trump's 34 convictions and what's it: 60-some remaining indictments, political prosecutions?

He is being legitimately charged with actual crimes that multiple grand juries decided he very likely committed (also don't forget that he basically admitted to all of it, multiple times).

Trump is prosecuting Trump. Don't ever fucking forget that.
Epic stupid is supposed to hurt.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,560
7,617
136
In what way are Trump's 34 convictions and what's it: 60-some remaining indictments, political prosecutions?
In this regard, it does not matter what you think.
This is about your enemy seeking revenge and vowing to do the "same" thing to you and yours.

It matters that THEY believe it is political persecution. For in those words, they will take action to normalize it going forward.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,818
10,226
136
I have very mixed-feelings about that. I'm pretty sure I've argued both sides at different times (i.e. I vaguely remember arguing somewhere that the rich and powerful can cause harm and benefit themselves without needing to be personally violent, precisely because they have power so can get others to do the dirty-work for them - hence people at the top can be 'charming' and personally 'nice' while still causing immense harm).

But at the same time, having endured serious harassment and threats of violence from people in my immediate environs, I don't want those people released from prison to be free to going back to making my life a misery, just to make room in those prisons for people who don't pose such a traumatic threat (and who, to the degree they do pose a threat, can be dealt with by simply removing their social, political or economic power, without having to go to all the expense and trouble of physically locking them up).

Trump is only a threat insofar as the system gives him economic and political power. As an individual he's as threatening as a clown.
If this came out before the election, he very likely wouldn't have been elected. His election and his horrible record on COVID lead to hundreds of thousands of extra deaths in the US. His environmental policy have allowed for more water and air pollution. His supreme court has lead to women having serious medical issues that doctors won't treat.

I'm sorry but that is greater harm than pretty much anyone in prison.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,818
10,226
136
In this regard, it does not matter what you think.
This is about your enemy seeking revenge and vowing to do the "same" thing to you and yours.

It matters that THEY believe it is political persecution. For in those words, they will take action to normalize it going forward.
You can't allow him to overthrow the government and ignore all laws because his supporters are part of a cult. The real take away from Hitler is that you actually have to punish insurrectionists and not give them the opportunity to seek power. This is why the 14th amendment bans insurrectionists from running, too bad the supreme court doesn't actually follow the Constitution.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,318
15,116
136
In what way are Trump's 34 convictions and what's it: 60-some remaining indictments, political prosecutions?

He is being legitimately charged with actual crimes that multiple grand juries decided he very likely committed (also don't forget that he basically admitted to all of it, multiple times).

Trump is prosecuting Trump. Don't ever fucking forget that.
It’s pure projection. They use the law and their power to initiate bogus investigations and make bogus claims all for political reasons/gains so they think that’s what democrats do.


Yep, the Nazi party never had more than 37.4% of the vote (curiously and terrifyingly, that's about the % of Americans who are trump cultists). In the next German election they had lost support and got just 33.1% of the vote. That was the last election before Hitler seized power by manufacturing a crisis and bargaining for the support of the German military by murdering his own private army.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,050
7,474
136
Yep, the Nazi party never had more than 37.4% of the vote (curiously and terrifyingly, that's about the % of Americans who are trump cultists). In the next German election they had lost support and got just 33.1% of the vote. That was the last election before Hitler seized power by manufacturing a crisis and bargaining for the support of the German military by murdering his own private army.

I wonder if ~33% is the sort of magic "substantial minority" number required for an unpopular group to have the critical mass to capture a nation's institutions and end its current form of government.

I'm not gonna run the numbers, but I suspect that to be the case.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,569
29,245
136
Somewhat poorly written, but a decent explanation of what's going to happen.
You skipped over the step where you show how this was a political prosecution and not just a small step towards well-deserved justice. How exactly did politicians get this past a grand jury and a regular jury? Republicans tried to do that with Hillary and failed miserably.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,050
7,474
136
For all the R chest pounding about how they’re going to vote even harder for the felon that they were already voting for some early evidence emerging that indies are not real thrilled with this.


-Honestly I would find the conservative position much more respectable and honest if the line was "Yeah, sure, he's guilty but I don't agree with the law and will be voting for him anyway" or even "Yeah he's guilty, but still the best choice for president" Rather than this political persecution BS.

I mean there are plenty of laws I would be pro-jury nullification. Not this one, but plenty where someone might violate the letter of a law that I just don't agree with. So I could see an argument from that perspective.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,325
4,587
136
That badge of honor bullshit is exactly that, BS. At a minimum there will be people who voted for him before that won't show up this time.
Yup these party over country are traitors just as much as their orange monkey king. Biden should offer medal of freedom to everyone that switches over from R to D in November
 
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pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,499
4,596
136
White or Right....

Right makes sense in the sentence, White doesn't fit.

Meh.
 
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gothuevos

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2010
2,015
1,726
136
Somewhat poorly written, but a decent explanation of what's going to happen.

You act like we give two shits if Obama, Biden, Hilary, Schiff etc are prosecuted.

Look, if you have enough evidence of a crime, can get an indictment, can go to trial, and can convince a jury of 12 to convict...then great.

Thought it was "respect the process" when Rittenhouse was acquitted. Why not now?

My loyalties are to the rules of the game, certainly not to politicians LOL.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,588
136
I wonder if all the people who are so concerned about the prospect of prosecuting a former president thought about the consequences of letting presidents know they can commit crimes with impunity.

And that other counties like France, Italy, etc have done this and it’s fine. People acting like this is without precedent in first world democracies are full of shit.
 
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