Trump NY Criminal Trial

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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, whether the conviction is ultimately upheld or not, you can't sum up the crime committed as simply as 'he stabbed someone and took their wallet'. 'he slept with a porn actress, then paid them off to keep quiet about it, via a complicated process involving his lawyer and misrepresenting what the money was for, while running for President' is just not as easily understood as a form of immoral behaviour as the former.

He has a lot of other legal troubles to deal with still, though, no?

The point here is whether or not the appeal will be fruitful. I think not, as the legal minds prosecuting the case likely have an ironclad case. But overturning of this conviction will be a huge net negative and just another brick in the fascism wall being built by the right. And they seem not just content, but enthusiastic about fascism. Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds

Trump has plenty of other legal troubles, always has.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,794
10,319
136
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, whether the conviction is ultimately upheld or not, you can't sum up the crime committed as simply as 'he stabbed someone and took their wallet'. 'he slept with a porn actress, then paid them off to keep quiet about it, via a complicated process involving his lawyer and misrepresenting what the money was for, while running for President' is just not as easily understood as a form of immoral behaviour as the former.

He has a lot of other legal troubles to deal with still, though, no?
The TLDR isn't that convoluted. Trump committed fraud crimes to illegally help his presidential election campaign.

It reminds me of a scenario long ago where I was editing a report for my manager, and one of his big things was consistency of wording. So in the report, he kept referring to "the item that just experienced a failure at this particular location".
This phrase would be continually used throughout the report, but it made more complex sentences challenging to read.
Just write "the item". Keep things short and simple.

Yes, the details are more complex, but part of building a good case is going to be making a jury understand what's going on. And clearly the prosecution did that if they went 34-0 across 12 jurors.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,705
49,289
136
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, whether the conviction is ultimately upheld or not, you can't sum up the crime committed as simply as 'he stabbed someone and took their wallet'. 'he slept with a porn actress, then paid them off to keep quiet about it, via a complicated process involving his lawyer and misrepresenting what the money was for, while running for President' is just not as easily understood as a form of immoral behaviour as the former.

He has a lot of other legal troubles to deal with still, though, no?
You can describe this case extremely simply.

Trump cooked the books for his business to hide the fact he was paying off porn stars.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,925
5,795
126
You can describe this case extremely simply.

Trump cooked the books for his business to hide the fact he was paying off porn stars, which in turn could have been the reason he won the election.
Edited for the bigger picture because some people don't seem to understand this.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
I have read and listened to many sources of legal opinions on this case from Johnathan Turley, Alan Dershowitz, and others how it was handled improperly.
You might want to check your sources, because most of these are not true. Let's break it down...
CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig has criticized the New York criminal case against Trump as an "unjustified mess" and argued prosecutors "contorted the law" to get the former president.
Honig's argument basically boils down to 'No politician has even been charged with these crimes, so no politician ever should'. It is wrapped up in a lot of fancy words, but that is what their argument is. It is spurious at best.
Honig also explained another appellate issue, arguing that it was unprecedented to have Bragg, a county prosecutor, enforcing federal law.
And he didn't. Honig uses some fancy rhetoric to make is sound like he did, but then states flat out in the very article you linked that they are all NY State laws. Honig states: "In fact, no state prosecutor — in New York, or Wyoming, or anywhere — has ever charged federal election laws as a direct or predicate state crime, against anyone, for anything." Which is absolutely true, because even in this case it didn't happen.
Honig later states that the NY state law is being elevated by another crime and that "according to prosecutors, the ‘another crime’ is a New York State election-law violation" No federal election laws found.

Honig used your confirmation bias to make you think he said something he didn't. It is a fancy way to lie by telling the truth.
CNN legal analyst Elie Honig has previously said that this case was legally dubious, uniquely targeted Trump and could not succeed outside of an anti-Trump district.
That is pure opinion, and we can never know if it is true or not. What we can know is that Trump's lawyers participated in jury selection, that 12 jurors that were jointly selected came to a unanimous decision, and they found him guilty on all 34 counts. That does not sound like something that would happen if the case was ambiguous.

CNN legal correspondent Paula Reid said Sunday that while any appeals process was unlikely to play out before the election, "there are some legitimate questions to be appealed here."

Erin Burnett, a CNN host, asked former prosecutor Mark O'Mara during her show on Thursday about Trump's odds on appeal. "I actually think they’re pretty good because there are a number of significant issues [with] the way this trial was handled," O'Mara said.
All of these is pure opinion with out any reasoning given. I can dismiss them with the same reasoning.

"There is an appeal that could have legs," Arlo Devlin-Brown, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan, told Politico. "The combination of the prosecution offering three different theories as to how the false records could have violated state election law, limited instruction on what some of those theories required, and the fact that jurors were not required to agree on which had been proven creates a real issue for the appeal," Devlin-Brown said.
I think this is the one that will actually be appealed. I also have a bit of a problem with this one. Basically the jury had to decide if he was guilty of a crime he was never charged with to decide if he was guilty of this one. Apparently the NY law is written specifically to allow that, so the NY Supreme Court will probably uphold the verdict. This is the one I think will go to SCOTUS. If so, that will be an interesting trial. If SCOTUS find in Trumps favor it will be a seismic shift in legal theory as there are many, many laws written that way.
It will basically wipe out most white collar crimes and throw our financial institutes into chaos as it basically becomes legal to embezzle.
Acting Supreme Court justice Juan Merchan was handpicked for this case rather than randomly selected. This is only the latest in a litany of Trump cases where Merchan has meted out tough rulings against Trump and his organization.
This is a conspiracy theory. There is no evidence of this, and all parties involved have said that he was randomly chosen. The only reason this is being said is because he handled some Trump cases before, but with the number of cases Trump generates in the courts it would be odd if he hadn't.

We learned later that Merchan has contributed to a group to stop the GOP and Trump. Merchan’s daughter is also a Democratic organizer who has helped raise millions against Trump and the GOP and for the Democrats.
$35 dollars. It is a bad look I agree. His daughter does not matter. That is long settled. But I don't think that alone is enough to overturn the verdict. At most he will be given a reprimand for it.
What is equally disturbing is the failure of Merchan to protect the rights of the defendant and what even critics admit were distinctly pro-prosecution rulings in the trial. It is not just the appearance of a conflict with Judge Merchan but a record of highly biased decisions.
Everything I've seen says that Merchan went above and beyond to protect the rights of the defendant. He bent court rules several times in Trump's favor, and was extremely easy on Trump. Trump was treated better than any other defendant would have been, and his only complaints are that he did not get enough special privilege. All of the arguments to the contrary are complete fabrications by Trump to try to act like the victim. Which is probably why you didn't list a single actual item that Merchan did that failed to protect Trumps rights or due process.
The Federal Election Commission likewise found no basis for a civil fine.
It would have been a surprise if they did. The FEC is about as toothless as they come.
With no federal prosecution, Bragg decided to use an unprecedented criminal theory not only to zap a dead misdemeanor into life (after the expiration of the statute of limitation) but to allow him to try violations of not only federal election law but also federal taxation violations. In other words, the Justice Department would not prosecute federal violations, so Bragg effectively did it in state court.
As has already been stated none of the charges were reliant on any federal laws. Bragg did opine that some federal laws were broken, but his prosecution was not based on any of them.
Judge Merchan allowed a torrent of immaterial and prejudicial evidence to be introduced into the trial by the prosecution. That included testimony from porn actress Stormy Daniels that went into details about having sex with Trump. She included a clear suggestion that Trump raped her.
This will be brought up on appeal, but my understanding is that Merchan allowed the testimony because it directly went to the reason Trump committed the crime, and he did stop her from providing too much detail, and he did strike the parts that were objected to as prejudicial. Basically, he did everything required to keep her testimony to the relevant parts of the trial. This is not like the Weinstein trial, Stormy did not say she was raped, she only said she was ashamed of having sex with Trump afterwards.
Merchan also barred the use of a legal expert, former FEC Chair Brad Smith, who was prepared to testify that such payments cannot be viewed as federal election violations and would not affect the election even if they were considered contributions, since they would not even have had to be reported until after the election.
This is a complete fabrication. Merchan actually allowed the witness, but on the condition that the prosecution could also call their own witness. The defense decided they would rather not have that witness than allow the prosecution to have one as well.
Judge in Trump’s hush money trial did not bar campaign finance expert from testifying for defense
Multiple choice for the undisclosed secondary crime that didn't have to be Unanimous. The Supreme Court has repeatedly emphasized that the requirement of unanimity in criminal convictions is sacrosanct in our system. While there was unanimity that the business records were falsified to hide or further a second crime, there was no express finding of what that crime may have been. We still don't know specifically what that was.
This one will be interesting, rationally since he is not being charged with those other crimes it does not matter what they were, only if each individual juror is convinced that at least one happened.

Think of it this way: I show a group of people a picture of a parking lot filled with cars, and ask them to tell me 'Yes' if there is at least 1 black car in that parking lot and 'No' if there is not. It seems crazy to require that they all point to the same black car for the 'Yes' to be the correct answer.

Maybe everybody else is wrong and you guys are right... I guess we will see in time.
It is not everyone, only your carefully curated selection.
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,213
2,330
136
@SMOGZINN

Great post

A few addictions.

The court of appeals is the highest court in NY

The whole no politician was not charged with these crimes in the past is similar to the whole no cops were charged with a crime so they cannot be charged…


If they are worried about a 35 donation then why is judge cannon still on the documents case
 

nOOky

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2004
2,892
1,910
136
They CAN intervene, but the normal process is for Trump to appeal th the NY State Court of Appeals then, if he loses, to the NY Supreme Court...and, finally, if he loses that, to the USSC.
Myself, I don't think they'll be able to restrain themselves...and will Calvinball a way into it earlier.

If they slow walk the process wouldn't that be so funny? I bet the state of NY has many other important cases ahead of this one. It's not like the fate of the free world is in the balance
 

APU_Fusion

Senior member
Dec 16, 2013
943
1,432
136
I see the loser Trump sucker PCGeek is back at it. He is 100% Trump supporter and wants to pop out orange babies. Pathetic Fox News watcher. But her emails /s
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,705
49,289
136
@SMOGZINN one important point is that NYS law does not require the jury to find Trump guilty of ANY underlying crime, just that he falsified the records with the intent to do so.

As an analogy if the prosecution can prove Trump falsified business records to go buy a mask and that he intended to use to rob a bank that is sufficient for it to be a felony regardless of whether or not Trump ever actually robs (or even attempts to rob) a bank.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
meidastouch YTchannel had the best coverage of the trial(broke the farting story) and had actual experienced ny lawyers in the courtroom to report. they correctly predicted the verdict well beforehand and were debunking the cnn/fox 'takes' on the blanche cross 'perry mason' moment.

[from months of coverage]
the Stormy Daniels testimony was allowed because the defense accused her of making up the story so she was entitled to provide details to support her claims. if the idiot turd hadn't ordered his lawyers to take the position that he didnt have the affair, the testimony would never have come out. all he had to do was stipulate to the sex and the defense could have cut off the salacious unflattering details.

the statute of limitation claims are utterly stupid. Vance couldnt bring charges in 2017 as the turd was a sitting president. Bragg on taking office held off the charges until he could review the case and supposedly only after talking to Cohen to evaluate if he was a credible witness did he decide to prosecute. the fact that the turd wrote the checks for the reimbursement while in office extended the window past 2016.

the feds could have brought the same charges for election interference but chose not to, partially due to it not being sexy. ny law is different and with the evidence and a properly bahaved Cohen testimony it was a slam dunk. that is why Bragg brought the case.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,331
4,588
136
He's just laying out his justification to vote Trump again lol...need to stop the corrupt Dems!!!
Exactly. Why anyone here believes he won’t is insane. But then again, many of the same people they think Manchin helped Biden more than he obstructed.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,705
49,289
136
But then again, many of the same people they think Manchin helped Biden more than he obstructed.
But this is obviously true so I'm not sure why people keep trying to dispute it.

If people would like to describe a situation to me where Joe Biden implements more of his agenda without Joe Manchin than with him I'm open to hearing it. Is it going to be some thing where a mythical non-Manchin Democrat wins a Trump +40 state?
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,650
3,200
136
There is a non-zero chance that the supreme Court might possibly help Trump if and when this gets to them.
At the very least, 4 of the justices will agree to hear an appeal they almost certainly have zero business in, and will sit on it for an extra 4-6 month delay.

And then they have that non-zero chance of calvinballing a ruling that eviscerates a long history of precedents to help out Trump.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,318
2,345
136
There is a non-zero chance that the supreme Court might possibly help Trump if and when this gets to them.
But the "limousine liberal" said that won't happen in a million years.

The crime Trump was convicted of isn't complicated, but it IS a novel application of a state law. The 12 people who mattered were convinced, and I'm fairly convinced but unfortunately none of us are named Clarence Thomas or Samuel Alito, or their conservative friends. When the charges were brought over a year ago, there was already plenty of copy on whether these crimes were misdemeanors, or rightfully elevated to felonies. It isn't just dirtbag Alan Dershowitz or conservative media. A recent NYT article suggests that appeals at the state level are unlikely to succeed, because the burden of proof is high for the defense to prove that the jury trial was flawed.

People are wasting a lot of energy on pcgeek11 though. Suffice to say all that really matters, on numerous levels, is the outcome of the November election.


Hopefully by then the majority of the 21 seat court won't be so corrupt.
Not holding my breath.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,705
49,289
136
At the very least, 4 of the justices will agree to hear an appeal they almost certainly have zero business in, and will sit on it for an extra 4-6 month delay.

And then they have that non-zero chance of calvinballing a ruling that eviscerates a long history of precedents to help out Trump.
While I agree the odds are not exactly zero I think they are quite low. Not because I think SCOTUS is above it but because of the significant costs and uncertain benefits to Trump.

Also people forget this but SCOTUS has mostly ruled against Trump in his various criminal scandals. They way they help him is through doing the slowest slow walk to ever slow walk of all his unfavorable cases before eventually ruling against him. Like for the 1/6 trial I suspect the court eventually rules against him on the most important issues but they've chosen to sit on it and prevent it from being litigated before the election.

I think the SCOTUS path here is clear - nothing else goes to trial before the election but otherwise they don't issue any rulings on Trump's criminal trials. After the election if he wins the cases are all mooted anyway so they don't have to do anything and if he loses they can toss him overboard.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
While I agree the odds are not exactly zero I think they are quite low. Not because I think SCOTUS is above it but because of the significant costs and uncertain benefits to Trump.

Also people forget this but SCOTUS has mostly ruled against Trump in his various criminal scandals. They way they help him is through doing the slowest slow walk to ever slow walk of all his unfavorable cases before eventually ruling against him. Like for the 1/6 trial I suspect the court eventually rules against him on the most important issues but they've chosen to sit on it and prevent it from being litigated before the election.

I think the SCOTUS path here is clear - nothing else goes to trial before the election but otherwise they don't issue any rulings on Trump's criminal trials. After the election if he wins the cases are all mooted anyway so they don't have to do anything and if he loses they can toss him overboard.
All the, in my opinion, rational people I listen to regarding the SC's role in the issue say the same thing.

I think Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real issue, a form of self hate expressing the feeling 'just my luck, oh woe is me, Mommy always favors Trump over me'. Resentment and suspicions of favoritism when it comes to the sense of justice we feel we did not receive are projected as political reactions and feelings.

All this catastrophizing and projections that the stars are against us and that evil will win in the end is, again in my opinion, nothing more than this. The enemy isn't evil so much as our ego attachment to mechine behavior. How can you think rationally when running a script designed to keep us asleep.
 

NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,965
2,571
136
100% you need to punish insurrectionists.

You see the hissy fit the GQP is throwing about Judge Merchan presiding over Trump's trial? They are painting him as a partisan hack, since he has contributed $250 or something like that to some Democrat politicians. And also that his daughter, Loren Merchan, works for a digital campaign firm, which does run campaigns for Democratic politicians. They totally forget the fucking partisan hacks like Uncle Thomas Clarence and Samuel Alito who have wives actively working to fuck over the nation.

I am very close to feeling that the only way for this country to change is to become just as radicalized as the right. At this point, I'm not sure what else will help push change. Maybe the only way to get the GQP is to fight fire with fire.
No, becoming as radicalizedbas the right, won't fix anything, it will just make it worse. The fix is exactly what is happening to Trump: Accountability. But it has to go farther than just holding one man accountable for a fraction of his crimes. It has to hold everyone accountable for their crimes, no matter how big or small they are. No more excuses of why that shouldn't happen.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
Indeed it was a noble and very fact-based effort. But JFC, how much time do you have to have on your hands to waste that many words on a piece of shit like geek?
People are wasting a lot of energy on pcgeek11 though. Suffice to say all that really matters, on numerous levels, is the outcome of the November election.
I hold this truth to be self evident, that the value of a person can be seen in the quality of their aim. Who has the better aim, the Buddhist who vows to save every sentient being, or the person who holds others to be beneath his or her own personal estimation of worthiness to assist? In my estimation. Have any stone casters ever really considered why Jesus OKed stone throwing on one condition? To die to self righteousness is to die to the ego. Beyond that is the awakening to the joy of empathic love and compassion for of all things.

Oh but Moonbeam, and here come the endless rationalizations:

It is so sad we suffer such pain. Maybe we can change.
 
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