Trump to end DACA program today reportedly

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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,652
10,515
136
Trump punted to Congress, which is where immigration should be dealt with in terms of policy. It's a legislative failure that Obama had to address the dilemma with an executive order.
In the oddest way, I think Trump is actually playing this right. Make congress get off their fat asses and get on record. They either have to show they are heartless assholes, or maybe do the right thing for a change. We'll see how really hard core some of these anti immigration people really are, and how they will have to answer to their constituent's at re-election. Folks, this is how our democracy is supposed to work. These executive orders by presidents of both parties have been increasing because congress will not do it's job.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,625
12,757
146
In the oddest way, I think Trump is actually playing this right. Make congress get off their fat asses and get on record. They either have to show they are heartless assholes, or maybe do the right thing for a change. We'll see how really hard core some of these anti immigration people really are, and how they will have to answer to their constituent's at re-election. Folks, this is how are democracy is supposed to work. These executive orders by presidents of both parties have been increasing because congress will not do it's job.
I have zero issue with this itself. Congress has seemingly done everything in their power to abstain from decisions and shovel off responsibility to anyone who will take it, then proceed to chastise those entities for making use of that responsibility. IMO they should take this back on their shoulders (along with other responsibilities) and stop giving the President reasons to push EO's.
 

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
This part is so, so hard. We've got two-four generations of people indoctrinated with the war on drugs, and honestly I don't know that it'll change before the Baby Boomers and Gen X'ers retire/die (speaking as a younger Gen X'er myself). The idea of accepting drugs as something to be routed around rather than walled up is antithetical to huge numbers of politicians, and constituents. Remember the hubub regarding Clinton talking about not inhaling? How on earth do you converge mindsets between those that flipped out over smoking MJ and the complete legalization of everything drug-related?

It's going to be a very hard thing to do, a lot of that mentality has been indoctrinated for generations. My father is a baby boomer and I remember the day I told him that I enjoyed some recreational pot use every now and then and it was like I stabbed him right in the heart. He wouldn't speak to me for a week straight, mind you, he was convicted of a DUI and couldn't understand that what he did was far more dangerous to society as a whole than lighting up on the weekends. Cognitive dissonance strikes really hard when it comes to drugs, on a fundamental level people want to put themselves in a bubble where as long as they are illegal their use will go away and our trust LEO's will deal with the bad guys.

The reality that alcohol and tobacco use are far more harmful to the body, and society than marijuana is difficult if not impossible to accept. Even when you point out the obvious history lesson available with regards to prohibition and the extreme rise of organized crime that followed for years. You may not like it personally, you may not even drink, but people will do what they want laws be damned. If they have to hit the streets to get what they want they will, and someone with the most nefarious intentions will be the one to provide it.

The solution isn't necessarily to legalize everything, but the current classification system is antiquated and completely incorrect with lots of peer reviewed data from other countries available to show that changing the way you view drugs can have a large effect on society. Marijuana is an easy substitute for a lot of opium based pain killers, it helps with seizures, and has strong anti inflammatory properties, and these are possible by using CBD extract without getting anyone high at all. Of course this kind of study isn't allowed in the US due to MJ being a category 1 narcotic with "no possible medical uses" which would be the first step in a long battle that will probably never happen as long as that piece of shit Sessions is there.
 
Reactions: [DHT]Osiris

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
As the grandson of immigrants, I don't fear dreamers. My grandparents were the brown people of their era, American citizenship was their proudest accomplishment and they believed strongly in the American dream. They also didn't have the luxury of crossing an arbitrary border to achieve it. There was a process, it worked and it controlled the flow of immigrants relative to economic need.

That process no longer works. It does not benefit our society for there to exist an undocumented underclass. But there is little incentive to fix the problem. Businesses like having exploitable labor. People like their cheap lettuce. White collar workers love their cheap house cleaners. Los Angeles would implode if people had to pay a fair wage market price for hand car washes.

We need a comprehensive migrant worker policy with a path to citizenship for those who desire it, green cards and visas to attract white collar talent and reasonable quotas for people who are truly refugees. However, with such a policy comes the recognition that not everyone gets in.

How would you say your sort vote any differently on all these matters than svnla or roflmouth?
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
In the oddest way, I think Trump is actually playing this right. Make congress get off their fat asses and get on record. They either have to show they are heartless assholes, or maybe do the right thing for a change. We'll see how really hard core some of these anti immigration people really are, and how they will have to answer to their constituent's at re-election. Folks, this is how our democracy is supposed to work. These executive orders by presidents of both parties have been increasing because congress will not do it's job.
I have zero issue with this itself. Congress has seemingly done everything in their power to abstain from decisions and shovel off responsibility to anyone who will take it, then proceed to chastise those entities for making use of that responsibility. IMO they should take this back on their shoulders (along with other responsibilities) and stop giving the President reasons to push EO's.

Well said and what do they say about great minds?

http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...today-reportedly.2517553/page-9#post-39065409
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
How would you say your sort vote any differently on all these matters than svnla or roflmouth?
Let's try to have a civil exchange.

My "sort" are not a homogenous group of people. Those of my "sort" who are still blue collar workers or small business owners have legitimate concerns relative to both political parties abandoning the middle class, and some of those same people bought into Trump's rhetoric. I can't deny that. You believe race motivated them, and race alone. I know many W voters who migrated to Obama but then switched to Trump. I think it goes deeper than race.

I also can't speak for svnla or roflmouth. I don't believe I've liked any of their posts, so that should be a pretty strong indication that not everyone who holds conservative views agrees with the current GOP.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Let's try to have a civil exchange.

My "sort" are not a homogenous group of people. Those of my "sort" who are still blue collar workers or small business owners have legitimate concerns relative to both political parties abandoning the middle class, and some of those same people bought into Trump's rhetoric. I can't deny that. You believe race motivated them, and race alone. I know many W voters who migrated to Obama but then switched to Trump. I think it goes deeper than race.

I also can't speak for svnla or roflmouth. I don't believe I've liked any of their posts, so that should be a pretty strong indication that not everyone who holds conservative views agrees with the current GOP.

Politics as an endeavor is very much about picking sides, and I'd like to think there are consequences to reliably picking the wrong side of history. It's a simple observable fact that human development has moved on from a statically conserved world, and said sort trying to protect their former advantages are largely parasitic drag.

Keep in mind you live in a country that's basically a legacy of the french revolution, where half the country ironically would've never agreed to it.
 

Roflmouth

Golden Member
Oct 5, 2015
1,059
61
46
It's going to be a very hard thing to do, a lot of that mentality has been indoctrinated for generations. My father is a baby boomer and I remember the day I told him that I enjoyed some recreational pot use every now and then and it was like I stabbed him right in the heart.

And that father's name:

 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
Let's try to have a civil exchange.

My "sort" are not a homogenous group of people. Those of my "sort" who are still blue collar workers or small business owners have legitimate concerns relative to both political parties abandoning the middle class, and some of those same people bought into Trump's rhetoric. I can't deny that. You believe race motivated them, and race alone. I know many W voters who migrated to Obama but then switched to Trump. I think it goes deeper than race.

I also can't speak for svnla or roflmouth. I don't believe I've liked any of their posts, so that should be a pretty strong indication that not everyone who holds conservative views agrees with the current GOP.


Cuck, low t













Just kidding
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,432
7,355
136
And Paul Ryan has gone from saying Trump should not end DACA to saying it was the right decision over the course of less than a week.

As a bonus he's chiding Democrats for "playing politics" with the debt ceiling. Does he just assume everybody had a stroke and can't remember the last better part of a decade?
I heard that latter one on the radio on my ride to the airport. All I could do is LOL.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
In the oddest way, I think Trump is actually playing this right. Make congress get off their fat asses and get on record. They either have to show they are heartless assholes, or maybe do the right thing for a change. We'll see how really hard core some of these anti immigration people really are, and how they will have to answer to their constituent's at re-election. Folks, this is how our democracy is supposed to work. These executive orders by presidents of both parties have been increasing because congress will not do it's job.

I agree 100%. Obama, in his speech when rolling out DACA, clearly said this is a TEMPORARY measure. People who are mad about this need to call their congressperson and urge them to do the right thing.
 
Reactions: Snarf Snarf

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
I agree 100%. Obama, in his speech when rolling out DACA, clearly said this is a TEMPORARY measure. People who are mad about this need to call their congressperson and urge them to do the right thing.

I'd take that a step further, even the people who are pleased that it's not being extended need to contact their congress members to tell them to put immigration reform as a top priority. It needs to be a bipartisan effort that has clearly defined steps and a process that isn't excessively expensive.

I'm all for stricter policy with regards to behavior, violent criminals should be deported on first offense with no exceptions. Fast tracking should be possible for exceptional individuals, students doing great in school, community service work, people gainfully employed in important jobs in the medical field, and those who decide to serve as LEO or military. This would encourage those here to report themselves and get visa's while also encouraging them to work 110% to get residency or citizenship in a more timely manner.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
I'd take that a step further, even the people who are pleased that it's not being extended need to contact their congress members to tell them to put immigration reform as a top priority. It needs to be a bipartisan effort that has clearly defined steps and a process that isn't excessively expensive.

I'm all for stricter policy with regards to behavior, violent criminals should be deported on first offense with no exceptions. Fast tracking should be possible for exceptional individuals, students doing great in school, community service work, people gainfully employed in important jobs in the medical field, and those who decide to serve as LEO or military. This would encourage those here to report themselves and get visa's while also encouraging them to work 110% to get residency or citizenship in a more timely manner.
None of them should receive public assistance and our laws should be enforced no exceptions! This is how we ended up where we are in the first place. Also anybody being accepted should actually be fluent in English no exceptions. Nobody entering into our country with the intention of remaining here should be unable to speak our native language which is also federal law.

The application costing should be addressed and I feel like it should be a tiered system with the most qualified individuals paying the least amount to encourage the best and brightest individuals to come here legally.

Seeing people raising hell about breaking our laws waiving signs in Spanish should be your wake up call that they never assimilated into this culture.
 

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
None of them should receive public assistance and our laws should be enforced no exceptions! This is how we ended up where we are in the first place. Also anybody being accepted should actually be fluent in English no exceptions. Nobody entering into our country with the intention of remaining here should be unable to speak our native language which is also federal law.

The application costing should be addressed and I feel like it should be a tiered system with the most qualified individuals paying the least amount to encourage the best and brightest individuals to come here legally.

Seeing people raising hell about breaking our laws waiving signs in Spanish should be your wake up call that they never assimilated into this culture.

For the record, DACA does not allow public assistance to those that are here under its protection. They do not qualify for medicaid, welfare, or other government programs (I think with the exception of the school lunch program which I'm okay with, the children aren't old enough to pay taxes) When you say the laws should be enforced you mean deportation for the DACA children and their family no exceptions? That's a pretty hard line stance you hold if that's the case, and I think it's time that you accept reality here, it's going to be impossible to deport 11 million people from this country. ICE does not have the man power to handle 1 million, let alone 11 million. The buck would be passed onto local police departments, which are already understaffed and overworked in major metro area's to round up the immigrants and put them in holding cells. That takes away their time to do their actual job, to protect and serve.

To give you an idea of how little ICE can actually do, here in town the SAPD detain undocumented immigrants all the time for various things. They contact ICE every time and keep them in holding for 24 hours like they are supposed to, ICE is supposed to come pick up the individuals and deport them or take them somewhere else to be processed. Guess what happens? ICE never shows up, maybe they show up for 1 in ever 20 individuals in detention, or they specifically show up if it was a very violent crime like murder or rape. ICE doesn't have the manpower to deport 20 people, what do you think is going to be done to the estimated 100,000 here in San Antonio alone?

The budget required to handle the mass deportation of 11 million people would be astronomical, for those GOP supporters here who think the government already spends too much, are you willing to stomach the increase in spending? There would be a task force literally hunting people down in the streets and at their jobs. It would require checkpoints in all major cities, major disruptions to the lives of everyone in all major metro areas, while simultaneously creating a massive economic void in low wage jobs. We're talking 50% of kitchen staff, hotel housekeeping, janitorial work, construction, and landscaping just to name a few. I'm not sure what part of the country you live in, but here in the Southwest the effect on local economies is going to be disaster level. Los Angeles, San Antonio, Phoenix, Austin, Houston, and the entire Mexico-US borderline are going to be decimated by this.

Here's the problem I have with holding the law in such a high regard that it is absolute. If congress goes into session tomorrow and comes out with a bill that makes all DACA recipients legal citizens, and offers amnesty to 11 million people, how would that make you feel? By the letter of the new law, none of them are doing anything wrong, but by the letter of the old law they are still criminals. Is it okay for them to be here now because congress made it so? Is your sentiment of wanting the letter of the law enforced based in a moral responsibility to our country as a civic duty? When a law is unjust and is proven to be so, do you still feel it should be enforced even though it challenges the deeper moral values you hold? There was a time when it was okay to literally own other people as property, it was legal, and it was encouraged, did you feel that it was morally bankrupt to own slaves? What values are you willing sacrifice to satisfy this desire to uphold the laws of our country? You really shouldn't put so much weight into something as temporary and easily broken as laws, live by your own moral and ethical code, judge what's going on around you on that basis and that basis alone. Laws can be very immoral and cruel, they can also be the embodiment of justice, but just because a law is a law does not make it infallible.

We are in this boat because for the past 12 years we've elected officials who are cowards. They value re-election above all else, and they toe party lines and partisan talking points to keep their position of power. This issue has been needed to be addressed since Reagan amnestied immigrants in the 80's, but the risk of rocking the boat too much has scared congress from actually doing anything about it. This issue is not caused by 11 million people looking for a better life, it's caused by law makers who effectively refuse to do their job. It's now become a multi-generational issue which transcends normal legal issues. The people are here, we can't afford to get rid of them, and we can't afford to keep allowing them to live here without paying taxes and contributing to other government programs while pulling money out of them. Everyone needs to accept the reality that these people are Americans, and have been for a long time because many of them have been here for most of their lives, if not all of their lives like the dreamers. Take mass deportation off the table, start talking about punishing employers with criminal charges who exploit cheap illegal labor, and remove the fear of losing their families from these people so they can speak up and become documented and start following the legal process of becoming a citizen.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,625
12,757
146
None of them should receive public assistance and our laws should be enforced no exceptions! This is how we ended up where we are in the first place. Also anybody being accepted should actually be fluent in English no exceptions. Nobody entering into our country with the intention of remaining here should be unable to speak our native language which is also federal law.
Which native American language would that be?

The application costing should be addressed and I feel like it should be a tiered system with the most qualified individuals paying the least amount to encourage the best and brightest individuals to come here legally.

Seeing people raising hell about breaking our laws waiving signs in Spanish should be your wake up call that they never assimilated into this culture.
Really? A $thing should be most accessible to those who have the easiest ability to afford it? You really are a 1%er, aren't you?
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
I lived in a border county for several years and watched the border patrol's finest operate first hand. Those guys were more interested in smoking and joking all piled up next to a single vehicle allowing the rest of the fleet to serve as cover and concealment for the illegals crossing the border within 50 feet of them.

Reagan really opened up the flood gates when he granted amnesty in 1986 without doing anything tangible to secure our borders so we agree there. If we make a path to citizenship for people who've broken our laws then we should refund the money paid by people who obeyed our laws and did it legally. You don't reward a burglar for breaking into your home because he felt entitled to share your home with you perceiving that you had extra rooms available that he might use.

Addressing the corruption in MX and helping them to stabilize their economy is the right thing to do as long as it doesn't detract from our own economy. Our government has an obligation to take care of American's first and they aren't doing such a hot job at it. Some states are giving tuition assistance to these dreamers while citizens can't get anything and that is bullsh!t. I didn't get any state assistance to pay for college yet I had a 4.0 GPA. How is that fair?
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
Which native American language would that be?


Really? A $thing should be most accessible to those who have the easiest ability to afford it? You really are a 1%er, aren't you?
Then you pay for the riff raff out of pocket and what a kind soul you are with your bottom 10% English skills.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,625
12,757
146
Then you pay for the riff raff out of pocket and what a kind soul you are with your bottom 10% English skills.
There's irony in here somewhere.

What the hell are you even trying to say? That my taxes should go to supporting social programs which support everyone who lives in this nation (as they already do)? Okay? Are you now refusing to pay taxes because some of it might go to programs you do not support? The IRS would like to have a word with you I'd imagine.
 

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
Tuition assistance* is strictly income based, and it is federal aide money. If they received it, it means a citizen of the same income bracket also qualified, if you did not, it means you didn't qualify.

Edit for clarity
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,842
9,088
136
"Those DACA kids gotta go--their parents never paid to stay at one of my properties so their kids could be American!!!"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-flock-to-trump-properties-to-give-birth-to-us-citizens

While Trump rails against U.S.-born children of undocumented immigrants, his Florida properties have become a playground for birth tourists from Russia’s upper crust. The Daily Beast has discovered several companies are advertising rentals in Trump properties to expectant Russian parents. While the Trump Organization does not directly profit from subleases of privately owned condos, it does benefit from Russian patronage of the nearby Trump International Beach Resort. (The Trump Organization did not return requests comment.)
Many of the companies that cater to Russian birth tourists advertise their services openly and warn no one will get in trouble as long as they don’t lie on immigration paperwork.
 
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