Trump to end DACA program today reportedly

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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
I have a genuine question for the GOP lifers around here, how many immigrants that live here illegally have you personally ever met? Have any of them been "dreamers"? I know a lot of you don't live in the Southwest where Mexican-American culture is the norm, as a child of 2 Mexican immigrants (mother legal resident then later citizen, father completely illegal, now a citizen) what about them intimidate you so much?

I've met in my 30 years of life hundreds of undocumented immigrants, many of which my family and church helped to sponsor to get citizenship or residency here in the states. Those people have been some of the hardest working, devoted, and morally sound individuals I've had the pleasure of meeting. Many of their children were covered by the DACA, and every single one of them that I knew were stellar students and are now in college working towards degrees that will help a lot of people in the future (biomedical, engineering, health care). If there's anything to fear its that these people embody the true American dream, and the supposed patriots around here are embarrassed that brown people come to this country and find success in just a single generation through hard work. Yes some that come here are criminals, there is a certain percentage of all humanity that are pieces of shit regardless of color or country of origin. There's a ton already in this country that are here legally and we aren't discussing shipping them off to somewhere else.

This whole letter of the law argument is about as weak of an argument that can be had. You vote in elected officials who have blatant disregard for the letter of law, you have a Commander in Chief who just pardoned a racist old man who literally ignored the letter of the law after blatantly violating the constitutional rights of citizens he was supposed to protect. There are many absurd, immoral, and illogical laws that exist, especially at the state level. The way I was educated, when political means of abolishing outdated or badly created laws breaks down, as a citizen you exercise civil disobedience as a last resort. Marijuana legalization comes to mind, while still illegal federally lots of PD's and state's find the classification ridiculous and choose not to enforce the full penalty of the law. If enough local governments tell the federal government that they refuse to enact these laws, maybe our congress can get it's shit together and put together a bill that will actually help someone other than themselves get reelected.

/endrant

Living in the South of the US, I have met plenty of immigrants. While I mostly agree with your post about hard work and such, let go back to the root cause of the problem for those "dreamers". What was the main cause of their predicament? Did those dreamers' parents follow the immigration law to get/stay here?

The last time I check, the US is still a nation of rules and laws and as citizens/residents, like it or not, you do not get to pick which rule/law to follow and which one to blow off.

One more thing. Why is it ok for those "dreamers" to break the law to get here and then demand to stay here while million and million of LEGAL immigrants are waiting in vain for years and years to get here the LEGAL way?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
Jobs that citizens and legal residents could be doing.

As someone noted we're basically at full employment. Also that argument is routinely used to support the drastic curtailment or elimination of legal immigration which even conservative think tanks agree would be an economic disaster.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Wait, his AG said it was unconstitutional. How can he revisit something that's unconstitutional?

I thought exactly the same thing when reading the story. I guess T-Rump > Obama when it comes to the Constitution and getting things passed 'the right way'.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
One more thing. Why is it ok for those "dreamers" to break the law to get here and then demand to stay here while million and million of LEGAL immigrants are waiting in vain for years and years to get here the LEGAL way?

Their parents brought them here. Most 5 year olds don't exactly have a lot of input into those decisions. The argument that they have to go simply because the law is the law is morally bankrupt not to mention hypocritical in the extreme as the US has been only too happy to exploit the cheap labor their parents provided.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Their parents brought them here. Most 5 year olds don't exactly have a lot of input into those decisions. The argument that they have to go simply because the law is the law is morally bankrupt not to mention hypocritical in the extreme as the US has been only too happy to exploit the cheap labor their parents provided.

You "forgot" to quote this important part from my previous post.

...let go back to the root cause of the problem for those "dreamers". What was the main cause of their predicament? Did those dreamers' parents follow the immigration law to get/stay here?

and

...like it or not, you do not get to pick which rule/law to follow and which one to blow off.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Jobs that citizens and legal residents could be doing.

It's called competition. The jobs aren't just given to people, they earn them. That's the theory anway (try to explain that to the life history of our Dickhole in Chief).

A lot of these guys start businesses. You can't make some "hey, the legal citizen should be starting that business instead!" argument.
 

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
Living in the South of the US, I have met plenty of immigrants. While I mostly agree with your post about hard work and such, let go back to the root cause of the problem for those "dreamers". What was the main cause of their predicament? Did those dreamers' parents follow the immigration law to get/stay here?

The last time I check, the US is still a nation of rules and laws and as citizens/residents, like it or not, you do not get to pick which rule/law to follow and which one to blow off.

One more thing. Why is it ok for those "dreamers" to break the law to get here and then demand to stay here while million and million of LEGAL immigrants are waiting in vain for years and years to get here the LEGAL way?

I'm glad you brought that up, I'll respond to that one and not that awful Jesus quote. It's important to remember that the current system is broken, the root cause of the parents of the dreamers being here illegally comes down to a few crucial issues. The first being financial inability to afford the fees associated with "fast tracking" your residency and visa application. While there are a lot of great people out there doing pro bono work as immigration lawyers on the side, the amount of people that need help is orders of magnitude more than they can handle. In my earlier post, I mentioned that my family and the church I attended when I was young used to sponsor illegal immigrants to help them. The reason I use the word sponsor is because it is just that, we fund raised for them, and received donations from the congregation to help with legal fees and processing fees. In order to extend your initial work visa or school visa into a residency, you need to find a gainful employer willing to essentially vouch for you and cover the extremely high fees associated with getting a good immigration lawyer. A friend of mine that has been living here from South Korea recently graduated from university and was given the usual 6 month window to find employment that all people with expiring student visa's receive. You think "Yeah, six months is plenty of time to find a job," but then comes the problem with this, you have to find a company willing to sponsor you, in return for sponsorship you are usually asked to take a wage or salary lower than market to offset the cost of sponsorship. In this particular case, my friends sponsorship was going to cost a company roughly $10,000. Think about that for just a second, you have a young college graduate entering the workforce, already with a crippling amount of student loan debt, that is going to be forced to accept pay lower than what the job would normally pay anyone else. A regular US citizen could probably take another loan to cover the 10k being asked, but what bank do you think will lend money to someone with an expiring visa? What company is willingly going to shell out 10 grand for a fresh out of college grad, when they could find any other eager graduate without having to pay for them. Usually as a part of this exchange, said employer asks you to sign a contract or a non-compete that states that since they're doing you this solid favor, you'll work your shitty salary without receiving a raise for lets say 5 years (this is what my friend was asked to do) In this particular case, the company he got hired by is actually saving money long term by paying 10k upfront and locking him into 5 years of low pay. This happens a lot, especially in IT where it's common for companies to sponsor graduating immigrants with expiring visa's and locking them into low salary jobs (here in San Antonio USAA does this a lot at their main campus).

Now that story follows what happens when you legally pursue citizenship. Imagine that you're a 45 year old woman living in Mexico, the cartels control your city, your husband and oldest son have been murdered by these criminals. You fear that your younger children will suffer the same fate, so you leave your life behind and make a dangerous choice, stay and eventually be killed and watch your children also be killed, or put the lives of your family in a strangers hands to try to sneak across the border. If the small chance that you trusted the right person, i.e. they don't rape you and sell you into sex trafficking or leave you to die, pays off you're now in a foreign country. You don't speak the native language here, you have no friends or family to count on, and you desperately need money to survive. You could attempt to find an embassy and declare yourself a refugee from violence, but that's going to result in you being sent back, and if you do get sent back, the local authorities will know you tried to flee the city, the cops are bought and paid for by the very people you were running from, what do you think happens at the end of that scenario? So like most undocumented immigrants, you suck it up, and find a place that will pay you cash under the table. The job is probably cleaning shit off toilets, or picking crops in over 100 degree weather for 14 hours a day and if you're lucky you'll make $5 an hour. This employer is underpaying immigrants, and also not paying any benefits or contributing to social security, they are saving a ton of money if the workforce is 100 undocumented immigrants. Do you think for a second this cheap ass boss would shell out any money to help you get your visa or green card? Hell no, they would tell you to call the cops, but oh wait, you'd just get deported and like I said before that is not an option for you. With cost of living in today's world, how long do you think it takes to save up ten grand making $5 an hour? (Full disclaimer this is a true story of a woman who my family helped sponsor and is now a resident and has children who were protected by DACA)

In both of these scenarios, there is only one person benefiting from the system. It's the employer exploiting immigrants to get cheap labor without any consequences. The system will remain broken, and immigrants will continue to hide themselves as long as the cost associated with becoming a citizen is unreasonably high for people trying to be here legally. Let's be real, not everyone can be an engineer or a doctor to make the kind of money to afford this, or to find a company willing to eat the cost for you because your knowledge is worth it to them. There has been multiple efforts for the last 30 years to revise this system, and for 30 years legislators have continued to prove their utter incompetence at coming up with a solution that is humane and actually punishes those who would try to take someones despair as a means of profit. As long as the fear exists for these people, they will never report themselves, they will be continuously exploited, and companies will continue to profit from their inability to defend themselves from it. It's a vicious cycle with no end in sight and our brave leader just hot potatoed that shit onto the most incompetent congress that I've seen since I've been alive.

You stated that you simply cannot choose which laws to follow and which to ignore, but I beg to differ. Each of us possesses a moral compass and a brain, we have the ability to decide what laws are just, and which are unjust. It has long been the American way to fight for justice, and our founders exercised civil disobedience on multiple occasions to get us to where we are now. It's about time we put the heat on the lawmakers in Washington to actually do their job, I've been getting people all day to call congressmen and senators to express how they feel about immigration reform. If they just allow the DACA protections to fall off and try to deport almost 1 million people and their families due to their incompetence, I sincerely hope police and local ICE agents refuse to execute the order to remove them. San Antonio PD has already stated that if the word comes down they will not enforce immigration policy, regardless of federal mandate or state order. All this talk of job stealing is complete bullshit, no one wants to do most of the things Mexicans are doing in this country, especially at the wage they get paid to do those jobs. If your concern is with immigrants on I9 visa's taking positions from Americans, call your congressmen and tell them you're for immigration reform that punishes employers who try to profit off the vulnerability of those who have no choice but to accept a lower salary to stay in this country. If you worry about the safety of this country, tell them you support immigration reform that has no tolerance for violent criminals that should be deported and black listed from returning. If you are upset because these people haven't been contributing to social security or paying taxes, tell your congressmen you support reform that grants work visa's to every undocumented immigrant in this country that can prove they are gainfully employed and have been living in this country for years.

There are a lot of solutions to this problem, but let me clear, mass deportation is not one of them. It's high time that we as a society stop trying to claim moral superiority while we defend the rights of neo-nazi's, klansmen, and Wall Street executives who bankrupt our nation while shunning those who embody the real American spirit of hard work, entrepreneurship, and unity in their community. This isn't a partisan issue, it's an issue of basic human decency. These kids didn't choose to come here, they didn't choose to break the law, and they definitely couldn't stop their parents from breaking the law. They have spent their entire lives here, a lot of them don't even speak Spanish, how can you expect them to "go home" and not have their lives destroyed. America is their home, these are the finest examples of immigrants we have in this country, hard working and working towards higher education, exactly what this country needs more of, but because of a stupid broken law that hasn't been reformed to function in modern society you want to destroy over 1 million lives to defend some ridiculous notion that laws are above moral scrutiny. I'm ending my rant here, but if you want those kids to be here legally, write your worthless representatives and tell them to make it happen or you'll be voting them out next election.

Edit: spelling is hard.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,681
7,180
136
Start throwing people who exploited that labor into jail and we can have a conversation about the law. Justice should not be the convenient punishment of the vulnerable just because those equally culpable can escape through money and power.

Funny how those folks who practically scream and shout for the wall completely ignore the biggest reason why so many foreigners take the chance to cross over in the first place.

The GOP Ministry of Propaganda has done a spectacular job in this regard.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
Don't blame me for what this orange faced moron does.
I didn't vote for the monkeys arse....
But many who did fall for Trump are now experiencing nervous twitching, headaches, confusion, and lashing out at everyone in their path. Spouses that did not vote for Trump are becoming very concerned over the mental stability of their spouse that did vote Trump.
Trump-ies yelling at the kids. Aggression towards their pets. Picking fights with their neighbors. Uncontrolled aggression in the work place scaring their co-workers half to death.
All due to that huge mistake they made back on that one Tuesday of November 2016.

Not so much an anger with how their orange leader is now behaving, but more so anger with themselves. Knowing now they have screwed up has suddenly become personally embarrassing and emotionally disturbing for their life.

When everyone around them had tried to warn about voting stupid for this failed game show host, but they didn't listen, when that realization sets in for an individual they become very self destructive.
And those around them suffer.

Kids of those Trump-ies suddenly wonder what is possibly wrong with mommy (or daddy)?
Co-workers keep their distance in fear their Trump delusional co-worker will violently lash out. Bosses begin to question if their employee needs professional help, time away from others, or justified firing?

Yes... when someone that has been fooled into believing Donald Trump was the best thing since sliced bread, and now realize just how terrible conned they were, the result isn't pretty to watch.
It is one thing to come to grips when one has made a huge mistake, but to then deal with the reality of having been so ignorant is very hard to accept.
Blaming Trump is the easy part.
However realizing they are only to blame, absolutely devastating.

Yes little Timmy, mommy more than likely needs some professional help.
And for gods sake little Timmy, keep your distance in the meantime.
Trump-ie mommy (and or daddy's) self esteem has taken a massive hit.
They have realized the terrible flaw within their ability to judge and ability to see reason. Their lack of ability avoid the con, to avoid the con artist, to avoid a lie.
And that reality simply unable to deal with.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
While I might agree with many of you on other matters this is one where my opinion is firm. I would point out that I don't verbally attack people who disagree with me like so many others have chosen to do to me over illegal immigration.

For those persons hiding behind religion, church or the bible as a shield of justification on this matter I would point out that the Lord himself stated to obey the laws of man which many clearly are not doing by harboring illegals. So much for your faith.

I fully support legal immigration as a process that has produced some of our best and most productive citizens. I'm reminded of one Senator Robert F Wagner, a German immigrant, who did many great things for the working people in our country. You can thank him for the worker protections you all have right now. I'm sorry that some people have difficult lives in their home countries but that doesn't justify breaking our laws.

The deferred part of this action is over and its time to begin acting. I do feel that congress should take steps to reduce the cost of applying for citizenship but should in no way reward those who've broken our laws to come here.
 
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Reactions: AnonymouseUser

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
For those persons hiding behind religion, church or the bible as a shield of justification on this matter I would point out that the Lord himself stated to obey the laws of man which many clearly are not doing by harboring illegals. So much for your faith.

I'm a bit hazy on the theology from my parochial school education but my recollection is that this concept is not, by any means, an absolute because it could be used to justify literally anything.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
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Does Trumps recent comments about DACA remind anyone else of the Trump talks abortion week where he covered every possible position regarding abortion over a 5 day span?
Literally went from day one, both Woman & Doctor in violation should be jailed to day five abortion is a settled topic the courts decided years ago.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,689
25,000
136
While I might agree with many of you on other matters this is one where my opinion is firm. I would point out that I don't verbally attack people who disagree with me like so many others have chosen to do to me over illegal immigration.

For those persons hiding behind religion, church or the bible as a shield of justification on this matter I would point out that the Lord himself stated to obey the laws of man which many clearly are not doing by harboring illegals. So much for your faith.

I fully support legal immigration as a process that has produced some of our best and most productive citizens. I'm reminded of one Senator Robert F Wagner, a German immigrant, who did many great things for the working people in our country. You can thank him for the worker protections you all have right now. I'm sorry that some people have difficult lives in their home countries but that doesn't justify breaking our laws.

The deferred part of this action is over and its time to begin acting. I do feel that congress should take steps to reduce the cost of applying for citizenship but should in no way reward those who've broken our laws to come here.


Are you as absolutist when it comes to pot? Its only "legal" in a minority of states and still illegal at the federal level.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
One more thing. Why is it ok for those "dreamers" to break the law to get here and then demand to stay here while million and million of LEGAL immigrants are waiting in vain for years and years to get here the LEGAL way?

Initiative?

I dunno, I don't really take my response all that seriously because I certainly prefer those that make the effort to navigate the process legally, but I thought this is one of the last remaining of the mythical "bootstraps" scenarios that the typical conservative should get a hard-on about, no? These people are certainly no less American than our current president (probably more so considering their actual contributions to this country), so I think there certainly needs to be a means for these people, especially, to obtain citizenship in a preferential manner. They really had no choice in their place of birth or where their parents brought them as children and by nearly all accounts, they are rather well integrated.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
And Paul Ryan has gone from saying Trump should not end DACA to saying it was the right decision over the course of less than a week.

As a bonus he's chiding Democrats for "playing politics" with the debt ceiling. Does he just assume everybody had a stroke and can't remember the last better part of a decade?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
For those persons hiding behind religion, church or the bible as a shield of justification on this matter I would point out that the Lord himself stated to obey the laws of man which many clearly are not doing by harboring illegals. So much for your faith.

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" references money, not people. There was a time when just being a Christian was considered subversive under Roman law & it's not like they all just quit being Christian because of it. It's not like Christians didn't harbor Jews in Hitler's Europe, either.

But do go on with your self righteousness.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
And Paul Ryan has gone from saying Trump should not end DACA to saying it was the right decision over the course of less than a week.

As a bonus he's chiding Democrats for "playing politics" with the debt ceiling. Does he just assume everybody had a stroke and can't remember the last better part of a decade?

What's funny/sad about this is that playing politics with the debt ceiling IS a truly terrible thing. It's why we should abolish the debt ceiling immediately. The thing is, people regularly playing politics with the debt ceiling was an entirely forseeable consequence of what Republicans did in 2011. I remember saying it many times in the past that once one party goes down this path the other will invariably follow, which is why Republicans never should have done it in the first place.

Yet another case of 'you reap what you sow'.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
World's meanest Keebler elf about to get his deepest desire:

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
What's funny/sad about this is that playing politics with the debt ceiling IS a truly terrible thing. It's why we should abolish the debt ceiling immediately. The thing is, people regularly playing politics with the debt ceiling was an entirely forseeable consequence of what Republicans did in 2011. I remember saying it many times in the past that once one party goes down this path the other will invariably follow, which is why Republicans never should have done it in the first place.

Yet another case of 'you reap what you sow'.

Yes, this was unfortunately predictable.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
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As I said earlier, I think Trump or more likely Kelly played this right. He's thrown the responsibility back to Congress where it should have been to begin with. They have been dodging this issue for years plus many have used the issue to pander to both sides, since they don't have to vote yes or no they are allowed to do this. I am all for seeing a vote to tell who votes yes and who votes no. This is also a great item for bipartisan deal making.

Note this buffoon who is pissed because he can no longer avoid making a decision on DACA.

*From CNN fake news:

GOP leader upset Trump punted DACA to Congress
From CNN's Lauren Fox

Rep. Steve King says he is frustrated with Trump's DACA decision today. He can't believe Trump punted this to Congress.

"I don't think Congress needs to have this fight," King said

"The base could erode away from us all," King said, referring to the fact that Congress has not passed Obamacare repeal, tax reform and now is going to consider an immigration bill.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,362
136
I'm glad you brought that up, I'll respond to that one and not that awful Jesus quote. It's important to remember that the current system is broken, the root cause of the parents of the dreamers being here illegally comes down to a few crucial issues. The first being financial inability to afford the fees associated with "fast tracking" your residency and visa application. While there are a lot of great people out there doing pro bono work as immigration lawyers on the side, the amount of people that need help is orders of magnitude more than they can handle. In my earlier post, I mentioned that my family and the church I attended when I was young used to sponsor illegal immigrants to help them. The reason I use the word sponsor is because it is just that, we fund raised for them, and received donations from the congregation to help with legal fees and processing fees. In order to extend your initial work visa or school visa into a residency, you need to find a gainful employer willing to essentially vouch for you and cover the extremely high fees associated with getting a good immigration lawyer. A friend of mine that has been living here from South Korea recently graduated from university and was given the usual 6 month window to find employment that all people with expiring student visa's receive. You think "Yeah, six months is plenty of time to find a job," but then comes the problem with this, you have to find a company willing to sponsor you, in return for sponsorship you are usually asked to take a wage or salary lower than market to offset the cost of sponsorship. In this particular case, my friends sponsorship was going to cost a company roughly $10,000. Think about that for just a second, you have a young college graduate entering the workforce, already with a crippling amount of student loan debt, that is going to be forced to accept pay lower than what the job would normally pay anyone else. A regular US citizen could probably take another loan to cover the 10k being asked, but what bank do you think will lend money to someone with an expiring visa? What company is willingly going to shell out 10 grand for a fresh out of college grad, when they could find any other eager graduate without having to pay for them. Usually as a part of this exchange, said employer asks you to sign a contract or a non-compete that states that since they're doing you this solid favor, you'll work your shitty salary without receiving a raise for lets say 5 years (this is what my friend was asked to do) In this particular case, the company he got hired by is actually saving money long term by paying 10k upfront and locking him into 5 years of low pay. This happens a lot, especially in IT where it's common for companies to sponsor graduating immigrants with expiring visa's and locking them into low salary jobs (here in San Antonio USAA does this a lot at their main campus).

Now that story follows what happens when you legally pursue citizenship. Imagine that you're a 45 year old woman living in Mexico, the cartels control your city, your husband and oldest son have been murdered by these criminals. You fear that your younger children will suffer the same fate, so you leave your life behind and make a dangerous choice, stay and eventually be killed and watch your children also be killed, or put the lives of your family in a strangers hands to try to sneak across the border. If the small chance that you trusted the right person, i.e. they don't rape you and sell you into sex trafficking or leave you to die, pays off you're now in a foreign country. You don't speak the native language here, you have no friends or family to count on, and you desperately need money to survive. You could attempt to find an embassy and declare yourself a refugee from violence, but that's going to result in you being sent back, and if you do get sent back, the local authorities will know you tried to flee the city, the cops are bought and paid for by the very people you were running from, what do you think happens at the end of that scenario? So like most undocumented immigrants, you suck it up, and find a place that will pay you cash under the table. The job is probably cleaning shit off toilets, or picking crops in over 100 degree weather for 14 hours a day and if you're lucky you'll make $5 an hour. This employer is underpaying immigrants, and also not paying any benefits or contributing to social security, they are saving a ton of money if the workforce is 100 undocumented immigrants. Do you think for a second this cheap ass boss would shell out any money to help you get your visa or green card? Hell no, they would tell you to call the cops, but oh wait, you'd just get deported and like I said before that is not an option for you. With cost of living in today's world, how long do you think it takes to save up ten grand making $5 an hour? (Full disclaimer this is a true story of a woman who my family helped sponsor and is now a resident and has children who were protected by DACA)

In both of these scenarios, there is only one person benefiting from the system. It's the employer exploiting immigrants to get cheap labor without any consequences. The system will remain broken, and immigrants will continue to hide themselves as long as the cost associated with becoming a citizen is unreasonably high for people trying to be here legally. Let's be real, not everyone can be an engineer or a doctor to make the kind of money to afford this, or to find a company willing to eat the cost for you because your knowledge is worth it to them. There has been multiple efforts for the last 30 years to revise this system, and for 30 years legislators have continued to prove their utter incompetence at coming up with a solution that is humane and actually punishes those who would try to take someones despair as a means of profit. As long as the fear exists for these people, they will never report themselves, they will be continuously exploited, and companies will continue to profit from their inability to defend themselves from it. It's a vicious cycle with no end in sight and our brave leader just hot potatoed that shit onto the most incompetent congress that I've seen since I've been alive.

You stated that you simply cannot choose which laws to follow and which to ignore, but I beg to differ. Each of us possesses a moral compass and a brain, we have the ability to decide what laws are just, and which are unjust. It has long been the American way to fight for justice, and our founders exercised civil disobedience on multiple occasions to get us to where we are now. It's about time we put the heat on the lawmakers in Washington to actually do their job, I've been getting people all day to call congressmen and senators to express how they feel about immigration reform. If they just allow the DACA protections to fall off and try to deport almost 1 million people and their families due to their incompetence, I sincerely hope police and local ICE agents refuse to execute the order to remove them. San Antonio PD has already stated that if the word comes down they will not enforce immigration policy, regardless of federal mandate or state order. All this talk of job stealing is complete bullshit, no one wants to do most of the things Mexicans are doing in this country, especially at the wage they get paid to do those jobs. If your concern is with immigrants on I9 visa's taking positions from Americans, call your congressmen and tell them you're for immigration reform that punishes employers who try to profit off the vulnerability of those who have no choice but to accept a lower salary to stay in this country. If you worry about the safety of this country, tell them you support immigration reform that has no tolerance for violent criminals that should be deported and black listed from returning. If you are upset because these people haven't been contributing to social security or paying taxes, tell your congressmen you support reform that grants work visa's to every undocumented immigrant in this country that can prove they are gainfully employed and have been living in this country for years.

There are a lot of solutions to this problem, but let me clear, mass deportation is not one of them. It's high time that we as a society stop trying to claim moral superiority while we defend the rights of neo-nazi's, klansmen, and Wall Street executives who bankrupt our nation while shunning those who embody the real American spirit of hard work, entrepreneurship, and unity in their community. This isn't a partisan issue, it's an issue of basic human decency. These kids didn't choose to come here, they didn't choose to break the law, and they definitely couldn't stop their parents from breaking the law. They have spent their entire lives here, a lot of them don't even speak Spanish, how can you expect them to "go home" and not have their lives destroyed. America is their home, these are the finest examples of immigrants we have in this country, hard working and working towards higher education, exactly what this country needs more of, but because of a stupid broken law that hasn't been reformed to function in modern society you want to destroy over 1 million lives to defend some ridiculous notion that laws are above moral scrutiny. I'm ending my rant here, but if you want those kids to be here legally, write your worthless representatives and tell them to make it happen or you'll be voting them out next election.

Edit: spelling is hard.

Just want to say thank you for bring up the level of discourse in P&N. It's been years since I've seen such a level headed and well reasoned post. I so wish we had more quality posts like these.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
As I said earlier, I think Trump or more likely Kelly played this right. He's thrown the responsibility back to Congress where it should have been to begin with. They have been dodging this issue for years plus many have used the issue to pander to both sides, since they don't have to vote yes or no they are allowed to do this. I am all for seeing a vote to tell who votes yes and who votes no. This is also a great item for bipartisan deal making.

Note this buffoon who is pissed because he can no longer avoid making a decision on DACA.

*From CNN fake news:

Of course they can avoid making a decision, that's precisely what they've done for the last decade and a half, including a long time before DACA existed.

This is a dumb move because it's unlikely Congress can actually come to a deal on this, especially now that Trump has once again out-bargained himself by trying to give himself an out to 'revisit' it in six months if/when Congress fails. The only problem with that now is when he revisits it he's going to have to fight his own administration's words that DACA was illegal. So sure Congress should pass an immigration bill. I don't think it's likely to happen though and this deadline appears to have been made before giving any thought as to how it would play out. This was a very, very dumb play IMO.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
There is the minor matter of dealing constructively with illegals who've been here for many years, the parents of the Dreamers & of American citizens, as well. 7M or so have been here for over 10 years.

Probably not. Trump's playing the make America White again angle for all it's worth.
Trump punted to Congress, which is where immigration should be dealt with in terms of policy. It's a legislative failure that Obama had to address the dilemma with an executive order.
 
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