Trump tweets that aid to Pakistan could be cut

[UglyCasanova]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eceit-trump-launches-attack-on-pakistan-tweet

“The United States has foolishly given Pakistan more than 33 billion dollars in aid over the last 15 years, and they have given us nothing but lies & deceit, thinking of our leaders as fools,” he wrote. “They give safe haven to the terrorists we hunt in Afghanistan, with little help. No more!”

I agree with this, honestly what have we got out of the billions in “aid” that we send there? We finance their military while they continue to work against us, it seems like a lose / lose scenario.


Edit: not to mention the India angle and that we could do wonders for the India / US relationship by simply not funding their adversary. Strengthening ties there would help counterbalance the growing influence of China as well.

 

[Jhhnn]

Trump seems to think that base pandering is diplomacy...

 

[UglyCasanova]

So are you in favor of continuing aid to them?

 

[FIVR]

Do you understand what that aid is for? It's so we can keep flying our aircraft and droning people and operating in Pakistan with impunity.


Do you think Pakistan will allow the US to continue to do those things without us paying them?

 

[FIVR]

So are you in favor of continuing aid to them?

I'm all for it (cutting aid). Anything that reduces Trump's influence abroad is a great idea. Putin will pick up the slack.

 

[IronWing]

The US funds the Pakistani military, one side in Pakistan's slow rolling civil war. Cutting aid tilts the war in favor of the intelligence service that funds the Taliban and harbors Al Qaeda. I'm good with cutting aid but Trump's given rationale does not conform to reality.

 

[IronWing]

I'm all for it (cutting aid). Anything that reduces Trump's influence abroad is a great idea. Putin will pick up the slack.

Maybe, but more likely the Chinese in this case. Putin is too poor to afford a client like Pakistan.

 

[FIVR]

Maybe, but more likely the Chinese in this case. Putin is too poor to afford a client like Pakistan.

He probably won't offer money but he'll offer other things. You're right tho, the Chinese will want a piece of the pie (and can afford more than Putin).


It will be terrible news for Americans fighting in Afghanistan. The Taliban will be getting lots of aid from Pakistani intelligence that has been held up due to current diplomatic ties with the US.

 

[Paladin3]

I'm not well versed enough on international relations and foreign aid to know what to do. One one hand I would like to see us stop sending so much aid, but I'm not naive enough to think buying influence with countries we don't like is completely unnecessary. Heck, we don't even enforce our trade deals half the time when the other country cheats on us.

 

[urvile]

What about Pakistan's nuclear arsenal? How does that factor into this?

Apparently they are the only Muslim country that has a real capability.

 

[Jhhnn]

So are you in favor of continuing aid to them?

Yes. They have little control over the tribal areas along the Afghan border. Nobody ever has & nobody ever will, short of genocide. The people who live there are insular, ignorant, violent & poor in ways we barely comprehend. They simply defy governance other than their own tribal structure. It's been that way since forever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas

The Pathan tribes are always engaged in private or public war. Every man is a warrior, a politician and a theologian. Every large house is a real feudal fortress....Every family cultivates its vendetta; every clan, its feud.... Nothing is ever forgotten and very few debts are left unpaid.
Winston Churchill (My Early Life - Chapter 11: The Mahmund Valley)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

Notice #2-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanawatai

 

[zinfamous]

This is something that needs to be done but as always, Trump in charge of any dangerously good idea is a terrifying proposition.

 

[urvile]

Yes. They have little control over the tribal areas along the Afghan border. Nobody ever has & nobody ever will, short of genocide. The people who live there are insular, ignorant, violent & poor in ways we barely comprehend. Th

Yep. Even when the Pakistani military goes into the FATA in force (80,000 troops in 2004 according to that wiki article) they get fought to a standstill by the Pakistani Taliban. Even when they try repeatedly. The Pakistani government having little control of the area is an understatement.

You want to stop the Pakistani Taliban sheltering Afghani Taliban. How? I know let's just Nuke them.

Imagine there was a part of the US like that? Or whatever democratic, structured country you live in. Doesn't really compute does it?

EDIT: hang on after that last military coup I think Pakistan is a democracy now?

 

[UglyCasanova]

Yes. They have little control over the tribal areas along the Afghan border. Nobody ever has & nobody ever will, short of genocide. The people who live there are insular, ignorant, violent & poor in ways we barely comprehend. They simply defy governance other than their own tribal structure. It's been that way since forever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

Notice #2-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanawatai

It was the government not the tribes that hid bin Laden then gave China the stealth helicopter that crashed during the raid.

 

[Jhhnn]

It was the government not the tribes that hid bin Laden then gave China the stealth helicopter that crashed during the raid.

That doesn't change a thing that I said.

 

[urvile]

It was the government not the tribes that hid bin Laden then gave China the stealth helicopter that crashed during the raid.

Yeah that was messed up and the fact the US had to go in covertly makes it even more so. I wonder if they gave China that helo, sold it to them or barted it for something else?

I do wonder though if geopolitics is more nuanced than you, I, Donald trump or anyone on this forum would understand? Surely a chunk of that aid package is weapons systems being manufactured by US defence companies.

Otherwise they might start buying from someone else like China or Russia (like india does). Think about through life support costs on that stuff. That is going to be some big bucks.

 

[FIVR]

We should keep in mind that as of yet Trump has not made good on a single threat to cut aid to any country. He has cut aid to the UN (at least he claims he will) but he has threatened to cut aid to many countries and done none of it.


I have a feeling this is mere pandering to his base that he has no plan on following through. He will pick a fight with some dead soldier's family member or celebrity soon enough and all of this will be forgotten. Also, we should never underestimate the incompetence of Trump and his administration - even if he wants to cut aid he will probably fail because he'll forget or be caught up in bigger problems and scandals soon enough.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Good on Trump, hope he follows through. Osama bin Laden was living pretty comfortably.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'm a reliably Democratic voter and I also think Trump is on target to be the worst modern day President however on this I don't think he is too far off base.
Why support someone and give them ally status when they fuck you.
OBL lived a short distance from their fucking West Point equivalent, we had to keep the raid quiet because they'd leak it, the semi secret black hawk parts that were left behind they allowed other countries to evaluate them, to my knowledge Pakistan has never apologized for not knowing OBL was right in front of them.

 

[cirrrocco]

Yes. They have little control over the tribal areas along the Afghan border. Nobody ever has & nobody ever will, short of genocide. The people who live there are insular, ignorant, violent & poor in ways we barely comprehend. They simply defy governance other than their own tribal structure. It's been that way since forever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

Notice #2-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanawatai

if you go back from 2001, almost all of the terrorist leadership have been caught in the big cities. So it is one of the ideas that the TSP [ Terrorist state of Pakistan], propagate that they have no control over the badlands.
The shura, OBL, Taliban's top leadership, Al Q leadership, all the top 5's have been found in the bigger cities.

They must have be laughing at the world super power in Rawalpindi [HQ of the TSP military] as they are directly responsible for 90% of the causalities of US soldiers. The problem is the stupid notion by many of the old State dept and pentagon leadership, who think that the ISI helped us during the cold war and they still support the US. All the Pak army now knows to do is to artfully extract money from the US, Saudi Arabia and other sugar daddies. Every time a high level US leader makes a trip to TSP, they kill a number 3 and say look we are killing them. Give us a billion dollars more.

fucking ridiculous.

 

[urvile]

if you go back from 2001, almost all of the terrorist leadership have been caught in the big cities. So it is one of the ideas that the TSP [ Terrorist state of Pakistan], propagate that they have no control over the badlands.
The shura, OBL, Taliban's top leadership, Al Q leadership, all the top 5's have been found in the bigger cities.

They must have be laughing at the world super power in Rawalpindi [HQ of the TSP military] as they are directly responsible for 90% of the causalities of US soldiers. The problem is the stupid notion by many of the old State dept and pentagon leadership, who think that the ISI helped us during the cold war and they still support the US. All the Pak army now knows to do is to artfully extract money from the US, Saudi Arabia and other sugar daddies. Every time a high level US leader makes a trip to TSP, they kill a number 3 and say look we are killing them. Give us a billion dollars more.

fucking ridiculous.

Just to play devils advocate but what happens if they stop sheltering terrorists in the big cities (I will take your word for it) succesfully. Then how do they resolve the issue of the FATA and the Afghani Taliban that shelter there and launch raids across the border?

That's never going away. So the war in Afghanistan will just go on and on and on. I think once we get the Afghani military trained and equipped to a point that they can hold their own against the Taliban we should withdraw and leave them to it.

There would have been some juicy contracts for US defence companies when the Afghani armed forces was raised and equipped initially. Might as well milk it for all its worth.

As for the US giving the Pakistanis aid. I don't really care either way.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Trump - "The United States has foolishly given Pakistan more than 33 billion dollars in aid over the last 15 years, and they have given us nothing but lies & deceit, thinking of our leaders as fools. They give safe haven to the terrorists we hunt in Afghanistan, with little help. No more!"

Pakistan Defence Ministry - "Pak as anti-terror ally has given free to US: land & air communication, military bases & intel cooperation that decimated Al-Qaeda over last 16yrs, but they have given us nothing but invective & mistrust. They overlook cross-border safe havens of terrorists who murder Pakistanis."

Clearly, Pakistan should build a wall and get Afghanistan to pay for it. Yes, our relationship with Pakistan is complicated. That’s a good reason not to reduce it to a tweet.

 

[Bitek]

Sometimes it's better to keep your friends close but enemies closer.

Potentially dangerous move to give up any friendliness posturing and purse jingling towards public hostility and confrontation. Who knows just how important their intel is to our WoT.

Pakistan is very capable of stirring a bunch of shit up that can mean major trouble for us.

 

[pmv]

We should keep in mind that as of yet Trump has not made good on a single threat to cut aid to any country. He has cut aid to the UN (at least he claims he will) but he has threatened to cut aid to many countries and done none of it.


I have a feeling this is mere pandering to his base that he has no plan on following through. He will pick a fight with some dead soldier's family member or celebrity soon enough and all of this will be forgotten. Also, we should never underestimate the incompetence of Trump and his administration - even if he wants to cut aid he will probably fail because he'll forget or be caught up in bigger problems and scandals soon enough.

I don't have any strong opinion on the issue itself but this seems an important point. The ratio of pointless noise to actual action that comes out of the Whitehouse seems very high. I expect foreign governments of all kinds have entire units devoted to working out how to 'play' Trump and to humour him till he loses interest in any given issue.

 

[gamervivek]

I remember thinking in the aftermath of 9/11, quite naively, that this would turn Americans' attention towards what India had to endure for decades. Not only it didn't, but Osama turned up in Pakistan after US had supplied them during all these years for the fight against terrorism. Quelle surprise!

It was only a couple of years ago that I realized that it went even further,

Bush said during the nationally televised debate, “Arab-Americans are racially profiled in what’s called secret evidence. People are stopped, and we got to do something about that.” Then-Governor Bush went on, “My friend, Sen. Spence Abraham [the Arab-American Republic Senator from Michigan], is pushing a law to make sure that, you know, Arab-Americans are treated with respect. So racial profiling isn’t just an issue at the local police forces. It’s an issue throughout our society. And as we become a diverse society, we’re going to have to deal with it more and more.”

https://www.unz.com/isteve/10112000-george-w-bush-called-for-laxer-airport-scrutiny-of-arabs/

No wonder the alt-right uses the term 'cuckservative' to describe these 'conservatives'. As for the enlightened post-feminist, 'gender-equality uber alles' developed world taking in Muslims, words defy the description of their stupidity.

And of course, thanks Trump.

Trump - "The United States has foolishly given Pakistan more than 33 billion dollars in aid over the last 15 years, and they have given us nothing but lies & deceit, thinking of our leaders as fools. They give safe haven to the terrorists we hunt in Afghanistan, with little help. No more!"

Pakistan Defence Ministry - "Pak as anti-terror ally has given free to US: land & air communication, military bases & intel cooperation that decimated Al-Qaeda over last 16yrs, but they have given us nothing but invective & mistrust. They overlook cross-border safe havens of terrorists who murder Pakistanis."

Clearly, Pakistan should build a wall and get Afghanistan to pay for it. Yes, our relationship with Pakistan is complicated. That’s a good reason not to reduce it to a tweet.

Pakistan is already building a wall and apparently US was a backer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan–Pakistan_barrier

And they already have one, for all intents and purposes, with India.

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-comple...tors-use-the-unfenced-part-to-come-into-India