Trump wants more nukes

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Didn't read through the thread so this has probably been addressed, but our nuclear arsenal is frighteningly outdated. I'm much less concerned about their ability to strike (which I'm sure they are capable of) compared to something going wrong and one being detonated unintentionally due to old tech. We don't need more nukes - and less is most assuredly better - but we do need to modernize them.

Fear monger often? Old tech isn't unreliable per se, certainly not when it's tested & refurbed regularly.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
You misunderstand my point. Germany entered the war then because they thought they could still win THEN, but thought that victory would be impossible in the near future due to the increasing military power of Russia. Therefore they decided to enter into war then instead of later. It's very easy to see how this applies to the current situation. Imagine the US is building a 'perfect' BMD system. You can't build that overnight, meaning there will be a period where foreign powers with strategic nuclear arsenals still have an effective counter to ours but can see a time in the near future where they no longer will. That provides a very strong incentive to act rashly. Does it make more sense now as to why BMD systems are destabilizing?

So then why didn't the U.S. attack the USSR when we had nukes and they were just developing the capability? Wasn't that just as destabilizing as us coming up with a BMD system? That's a direct analogue to the "victory would be impossible later" situation you think drove Germany's actions. Plus, even if we used your "logic" then why wouldn't we just keep the construction of the system a secret until it was operational? That would moot your idea that Russia or whoever would launch a pre-emptive strike.

Of you can just be more honest with both yourself and us and admit that you don't want such a system built because you actually secretly prefer the "stability" of the Mutually Assured Destruction paradigm over one where the U.S. achieves a position of superiority - you fear the U.S. "winning" as much or more than the idea that you might die by atomic fire.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
So for sake of argument I'll agree an "alliance" was a new technology and that Germany acted for the reasons you cited (I disagree but that's beside the point). That's still only one example you said history is "full of them." Surely with so many to choose from you can cite one where a new technology was the proximate cause of the war and will be directly relevant to why Russia or others would attack America if we were to build a BMD system.

Go listen to the hardcore history podcasts and you will find the theme repeating itself.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,122
14,489
146
A BMD that is capable of stopping an accidental launch or rogue state launch (say < 5 missiles) and is billed as such maybe useful.

Increases the cost of entry for non-nuclear states and have a chance to negate an accidental launch. Maybe make it available to any current nuclear power in good standing?

Anything more would be destabilizing and a (greater) waste of money.
 
Reactions: xthetenth

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,017
8,051
136
Missile shield could be a joint effort.
Though the issue may be if we share it with Russia / China, which rogue actors get to purchase it?
Would it matter if it was shared with foes?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
You seem to act as if arming the United States with the best and state of the art nuclear weapons is a bad thing.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

But America should know that. This is the country founded on bloodshed and violence and they have kept that lifestyle going after 300+ years.

Oh right ... spreading Democracy through peace and love and all that ...
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Go listen to the hardcore history podcasts and you will find the theme repeating itself.

Like I said, I'll wait while you go dig up those podcasts and cite examples to consider. Considering the technological advances of the last century or so that you'd have plenty of example right at hand. For example. when the U.S. debuted stealth technology that would have allowed a credible first strike capability against the USSR surely they preemptively retaliated before war with the U.S. was "unwinnable" correct? Or now when the U.S. is researching directed energy, railguns, and hypersonic weapons that will obsolete the Chinese surely they're gearing up to attack us at this very moment?

Or can we all just admit the obvious that such thinking is complete and utter bullshit and the Russians nor anyone else would do jack-shit if we developed and deployed BDM. To call it "destabilizing" is a complete and utter load of crap and if anything might be the most STABILIZING force in modern history.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
So then why didn't the U.S. attack the USSR when we had nukes and they were just developing the capability? Wasn't that just as destabilizing as us coming up with a BMD system? That's a direct analogue to the "victory would be impossible later" situation you think drove Germany's actions. Plus, even if we used your "logic" then why wouldn't we just keep the construction of the system a secret until it was operational? That would moot your idea that Russia or whoever would launch a pre-emptive strike.

It's actually not a direct analogue as Germany was afraid of being destroyed itself instead of the US being afraid of not being able to destroy other nations as easily. Surely anyone can see the large difference there.

Also, I have no idea how you think we would be able to keep the construction of a BMD system sufficiently strong to thwart a strategic nuclear attack a secret until it was operational. There is only one economically feasible system for strategic BMD defense and that is a mid course intercept system that takes place in space. There's no way you're hiding that much hardware in space without people knowing what it is.

Of you can just be more honest with both yourself and us and admit that you don't want such a system built because you actually secretly prefer the "stability" of the Mutually Assured Destruction paradigm over one where the U.S. achieves a position of superiority - you fear the U.S. "winning" as much or more than the idea that you might die by atomic fire.

How about you be honest and just admit you hadn't thought this through instead of trying to assign secret motivations to me?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
Like I said, I'll wait while you go dig up those podcasts and cite examples to consider. Considering the technological advances of the last century or so that you'd have plenty of example right at hand. For example. when the U.S. debuted stealth technology that would have allowed a credible first strike capability against the USSR surely they preemptively retaliated before war with the U.S. was "unwinnable" correct? Or now when the U.S. is researching directed energy, railguns, and hypersonic weapons that will obsolete the Chinese surely they're gearing up to attack us at this very moment?

Or can we all just admit the obvious that such thinking is complete and utter bullshit and the Russians nor anyone else would do jack-shit if we developed and deployed BDM. To call it "destabilizing" is a complete and utter load of crap and if anything might be the most STABILIZING force in modern history.

This reflects a near total ignorance of strategic nuclear strategy. Stealth technology would not give the US a credible first strike capability because Russia, like us, relies on the nuclear triad. Stealth technology would not only require thousands and thousands of bombers to strike all of the land based and bomber based nuclear forces Russia has but it wouldn't do anything to take out the nuclear capable submarines that Russia has which by themselves could launch a catastrophic response. Russia's response capability was never threatened.

Instead of declaring that everyone else's thinking is bullshit I strongly suggest you go learn the first thing about strategic nuclear warfare.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's actually not a direct analogue as Germany was afraid of being destroyed itself instead of the US being afraid of not being able to destroy other nations as easily. Surely anyone can see the large difference there.

Also, I have no idea how you think we would be able to keep the construction of a BMD system sufficiently strong to thwart a strategic nuclear attack a secret until it was operational. There is only one economically feasible system for strategic BMD defense and that is a mid course intercept system that takes place in space. There's no way you're hiding that much hardware in space without people knowing what it is.

How about you be honest and just admit you hadn't thought this through instead of trying to assign secret motivations to me?

LOL, sure. Hopefully you don't piss the bed in fear someday when the U.S. does develop and deploy a BMD system. Because it makes perfect sense that would cause Russia to attack us because reasons.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
People are willing to destroy the entire world over their silly politics.

When will humans ever wake up? If not now, then when?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
LOL, sure. Hopefully you don't piss the bed in fear someday when the U.S. does develop and deploy a BMD system. Because it makes perfect sense that would cause Russia to attack us because reasons.

Thanks for your concern! It's always a pretty clear sign when you've lost an argument as you descend into petty insults.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Like I said, I'll wait while you go dig up those podcasts and cite examples to consider. Considering the technological advances of the last century or so that you'd have plenty of example right at hand. For example. when the U.S. debuted stealth technology that would have allowed a credible first strike capability against the USSR surely they preemptively retaliated before war with the U.S. was "unwinnable" correct? Or now when the U.S. is researching directed energy, railguns, and hypersonic weapons that will obsolete the Chinese surely they're gearing up to attack us at this very moment?

Or can we all just admit the obvious that such thinking is complete and utter bullshit and the Russians nor anyone else would do jack-shit if we developed and deployed BDM. To call it "destabilizing" is a complete and utter load of crap and if anything might be the most STABILIZING force in modern history.

mongol horde horse archers is one.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
People are willing to destroy the entire world over their silly politics.

When will humans ever wake up? If not now, then when?


If we destroy the world then we got what we deserve. Im excited to witness the end of humanity though. Pretty cool thing to live through. or I should say during.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Thanks for your concern! It's always a pretty clear sign when you've lost an argument as you descend into petty insults.

You're welcome. Maybe at some point you'll start thinking and reconsider why you think the Russians would preeemptively attack the U.S. and guarantee a loss via WMD because they feared the potential that they might someday lose a future war due to development of BMD. With your obvious expert level grasp of game theory I could see why you'd feel a move with a 100% loss probability is a something the Russians would do.
 

ReignQuake

Member
Dec 8, 2015
86
5
11
It was recently discovered that the USA has been testing newly created nuclear warheads for other countries. The USA is definitely not idle.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
You're welcome. Maybe at some point you'll start thinking and reconsider why you think the Russians would preeemptively attack the U.S. and guarantee a loss via WMD because they feared the potential that they might someday lose a future war due to development of BMD. With your obvious expert level grasp of game theory I could see why you'd feel a move with a 100% loss probability is a something the Russians would do.

Maybe you should go back and reassess what made you come up with the idea that this would be a 100% loss probability for Russia as it most certainly isn't. And why would their attack need to be nuclear in nature and not an attack of some other sort to force us into abandoning our program, etc? Seriously, every post you've made here shows that you've put no thought into this. Did you even know what the nuclear triad was before this discussion? Did you even know how credible BMD systems could be made (mid course guidance)? It seems like you didn't.

The reasons why a credible strategic BMD system is destabilizing are incredibly obvious.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
It was recently discovered that the USA has been testing newly created nuclear warheads for other countries. The USA is definitely not idle.
Nothing happens in this world without America's fingerprints on it. (Or more specifically, nothing happens without the fingerprints of those who control America and its closest allies.)
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
So who preemptively attacked the Mongols because they feared being able to compete with horse archers?

The Mongols' original conquest of all "people in felt tents", unifying the nomadic tribes in Mongolia and then the Turcomens and other nomadic peoples,[citation needed] had come with relatively little bloodshed, and almost no material loss. It was not originally the intention of the Mongol Empire to invade the Khwarezmid Empire, and according to Juvaini, Genghis Khan had originally sent the ruler of the Khwarezmid Empire, Sultan Muhammad Aladdin, a message greeting him as his equal: "We now have the obligations of neighbors. Human wisdom requires that both sides walk the path of concord and observe the duties of friendship."

However, the Governor of Otrar refused to receive the mission and had all 450 of them killed, with permission from the Sultan. Upon hearing of this atrocity months later, Genghis Khan flew into a rage and used the incident as a pretext for invasion. The Mongol invasion of Central Asia however would entail the utter destruction of the Khwarezmid Empire along with the massacre of much of the civilian population of the region. According to Juvaini, the Mongols ordered only one round of slaughter in Khwarezm and Transoxiana, but systematically exterminated a particularly large portion of the people of the cities of Khorasan. This earned the Mongols a reputation for bloodthirsty ferocity that would mark the remainder of their campaigns.

----------


fear made them lash out and kill the 450. Fear of this battlestation
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Needs 25% more tinfoil.
A country doesn't become as dominant as America has become by not being involved in everything. Also, the more dominant a country becomes, the more deceptive it becomes in order to hold on to that power and maybe even become more dominant.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,446
126
While we're asking for favors, can we get Putin to say that he's working on a joint Mars program with China? If the nuke program is getting a funding increase, NASA will want one as well.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Ahh the left is again showing us its true colors.

Its ok if Iran, China, Russia, anyone that hates America works on getting better, more modern nukes. But if the USA does it, we are terrible evil people.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
Ahh the left is again showing us its true colors.

Its ok if Iran, China, Russia, anyone that hates America works on getting better, more modern nukes. But if the USA does it, we are terrible evil people.

What the fuck are you talking about you ignorant hack!

I have yet to see a single person complain about getting more modern better nukes. What the issue has been is about getting more nukes for no apparent reason.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |