Trump wants to force all Muslims to register with a database

[mikeymikec]

Out of curiosity, exactly how much Muslim immigration do you support? Do you have an upper limit, for example, would your support for Muslim immigration stop at 100,000/yr, 1,000,000/yr or some higher number? If you have a higher number, why?

I don't support any exact number of Muslim immigrants. I don't support any number of any immigrants whatsoever. Immigration serves an economical function that any globalised society requires. Saying I support an exact number on it is as stupid as saying "640KB should be enough for anyone".

I don't support immigration for ANYBODY that doesn't have a job waiting for them already. The quality of support that we give the poorest in America has been sliding for quite awhile now. I do not see how bringing in uneducated persons with no skills and no hope for employment would do anything other than harm those already at the bottom. I am not overly strong in this conviction and could probably be moved from it. What do you think?

First of all, check employment figures for immigrants compared to natives for most developed countries. They're typically higher for immigrants, which means that the jobs are there. The fact of the matter is that immigrants are more likely to take *any* job and/or move anywhere for it. Think about it for a minute - at what point would you consider making a long term move (at the very least) to another country for work? You would be moving away from virtually everything and everyone you know to a place that you have no knowledge of whatsoever.

People move to where the jobs are.

The only point that I would agree with you on is that the most disadvantaged people living in any developed country should be given some assistance to improve their situation.

The only thing I'm wondering is, what does any of this have to do with Muslims?

 

[bshole]

The only thing I'm wondering is, what does any of this have to do with Muslims?

Take for example Syrian refugees. What skillset or education do they have to make them employable?

From what I understand, each Syrian refugee costs the federal government $20K just to bring here. That money comes from the taxpayers.

After they get here:
47% receive cash assistance
74% are on food stamps
56% are on Medicaid

Those numbers aren't that bad if only a trickle are coming in. If that number increases drastically, it could become quite problematic.

The Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), enrolls refugees in a broad range of welfare programs – for which refugees automatically qualify after 30 days. ORR spent about $609 million in FY2015. Nearly half of this goes to states and voluntary resettlement agencies to help defray cash, medical assistance, and employment-related assistance for newly arrived refugees. The balance funds formula grants to states and NGOs for English language and employment-related training and the Unaccompanied Alien Children Program.

Once settled, the refugees are eligible for further federal support and most take it, said the report.

— 47 percent of refugee households received cash assistance.

— 74 percent of refugees were on food stamps.

— 56 percent are on Medicaid.

http://www.npg.org/library/forum-series/impact-refugees-size-security-u-s-population.html

 

[Bird222]

First thing, Trump is an idiot.

Second thing is that no matter who voted for what, the courts will strike this down if it made it through Congress which it won't. And no, any appointment he could make to the SCOTUS isn't going to support an attack on the Constitution in this way.

So on this one issue people can complain about him and some of his supporters, but this isn't happening.

So how did the internment camps stand?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Take for example Syrian refugees. What skillset or education do they have to make them employable?

From what I understand, each Syrian refugee costs the federal government $20K just to bring here. That money comes from the taxpayers.

After they get here:
47% receive cash assistance
74% are on food stamps
56% are on Medicaid

Those numbers aren't that bad if only a trickle are coming in. If that number increases drastically, it could become quite problematic.



http://www.npg.org/library/forum-series/impact-refugees-size-security-u-s-population.html

Make up your mind. Are you talking about immigration or are you talking about refugees? The two are *not* the same so please stop treating them as if they are.

 

[Blue_Max]

Make up your mind. Are you talking about immigration or are you talking about refugees? The two are *not* the same so please stop treating them as if they are.

...except they are, because:

...they're not really refugees - very few of the muslims in camps around France & England came from Syria at all -- and very few of them want to leave should the violence at home lessen or end (let alone defend their families they care so much about.)

 

[mikeymikec]

Take for example Syrian refugees. What skillset or education do they have to make them employable?

You realise that Syria is (or maybe was) a developed nation like any other, so Syrian refugees would have skillsets just like fleeing Americans would if America became a major warzone?

 

[pcgeek11]

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/20...didate-donald-trump-immigration-intv-erin.cnn

I never said all either, and you've inserted "all" in there to try and make yourself feel better about it.



https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-...mp-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration





Look at the fucking OP you responded to!

Christ, the force of denial is strong with this one.



In that case you'll be able to provide the quote stating those exact words.

From your own post:

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population.

 

[SP33Demon]

Trump has historically been about what can he do to promote himself over the welfare of those around him and the people that were too stupid to understand that truth are about to get a rude awakening. Granted there are checks and balances in place but you cannot stop stupid. The working people who elected him are not educated in our labor history nor do they understand that the protections that they take for granted were all put into place by caring Democrats to give them a voice at work.

Even if you don't like labor unions, which I don't particularly care for, you still have protections provided by the NLRA, RLA and the other various labor oriented Acts that exist to protect people. My parents complain about SS but consistently vote against themselves by voting Republican. When people wrongfully assume things, which college attempts to break you of by showing you how to conduct scholarly research, think critically and perform a rhetorical analysis, then anything goes and you end up believing whatever fringe media presents to you as truth.

Trump won white men with college degrees by a 49-45 margin and yes he killed it with the non-degree populace. To say they're not all educated shows how stupid you are.

 

[pcgeek11]

You aren't college educated are you? Hitler did the same with Jews when he took power in Germany. The U.S. did the same thing to Japanese Americans during WW2 when it took its own citizens who'd committed no crime and placed them into internment camps on the west coast in violation of the 14th Amendment which says:
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Reference:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Well first of all we don't live in Nazi Germany.

I never said it has never happened before. I think we have grown as a country since WW2.

 

[pcgeek11]

Does the racism of Trump supporters not seem vile and insane to you? This is not to say the BLM setting cities on fire isn't as vile and insane but it seems to be "resentment" for just looking different for Trump supporters vs "resentment" for people who look like them getting mistreated and shot by Police.

I just want this to stop and quite realistically I don't see any other way other than to divide the country into 50 states.. and just say go be happy in your own state or move to one that's more liberal or conservative.

I haven't seen any Trump supporters doing anything illegal or vile or insane.

Too bad I cannot say the same for those on the left. Riots and burning for what the last three days so far.

Sad just sad.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The Muslim database thing is a misinterpretation of something Trump was asked regarding illegal immigration from Mexico. He has never campaigned on creating a Muslim database.

I don't support any exact number of Muslim immigrants. I don't support any number of any immigrants whatsoever. Immigration serves an economical function that any globalised society requires. Saying I support an exact number on it is as stupid as saying "640KB should be enough for anyone".

Elaborate please, how does "globalised society" require immigration? What function do immigrants serve that cannot be addressed with local population? Japan certainly never required immigration. I don't think China exactly relies on it either; a lot of Westerners that live in Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc to usually work in banking or tech, otherwise I'm doubtful.

First of all, check employment figures for immigrants compared to natives for most developed countries. They're typically higher for immigrants, which means that the jobs are there. The fact of the matter is that immigrants are more likely to take *any* job and/or move anywhere for it. Think about it for a minute - at what point would you consider making a long term move (at the very least) to another country for work? You would be moving away from virtually everything and everyone you know to a place that you have no knowledge of whatsoever.

People move to where the jobs are.

The only point that I would agree with you on is that the most disadvantaged people living in any developed country should be given some assistance to improve their situation.

The only thing I'm wondering is, what does any of this have to do with Muslims?

They're higher in the USA for two reasons. First, we're extremely picky with our legal immigrants and accept only the smartest, most educated, wealthiest, etc. Those people obviously have no problem finding jobs. Second, our illegal immigrants and their children are largely dual-citizens, which means that when the job market is tightening, they can always self-deport back to Latin America (which has been happening over the last couple years).

The same doesn't hold in, say, France, where you have large Algerian and Tunisian populations chronically unemployed and at far higher risk of crime/terrorism.

 

[Indus]

I haven't seen any Trump supporters doing anything illegal or vile or insane.

Too bad I cannot say the same for those on the left. Riots and burning for what the last three days so far.

Sad just sad.

Either you're willingly blind, or indifferent or you're just trying to promote and rationalize white supremacy.

I tried being reasonable but it is clear to me now, that's not possible.

 

[pcgeek11]

OK.

 

[Zaap]

The Muslim database thing is a misinterpretation of something Trump was asked regarding illegal immigration from Mexico. He has never campaigned on creating a Muslim database.

Oh come on.

Donald Trump "would certainly implement" a database system tracking Muslims in the United States, the Republican front-runner told NBC News on Thursday night.

"I would certainly implement that. Absolutely," Trump said in Newton, Iowa, in between campaign town halls.

"There should be a lot of systems, beyond databases," he added. "We should have a lot of systems."

When asked whether Muslims would be legally obligated to sign into the database, Trump responded, "They have to be — they have to be."

I don't know what he was smoking that day, or if he has been taking stupid pills, but he was answering questions about "tracking Muslims". He didn't clarify anything that would allow anyone to take this any other way but clueless, batshit insanity. When asked how it was different than Nazi Germany, he just said, "You tell me."

One could argue loaded/baiting questions to some extent, but what kind of moron public figure answers even a loaded question with such cluelessness?

it's impossible to defend the guy, because just about anyone has a LEGIT fear of him eventually going full retard like the above, during a press conference/ at some gathering of world leaders / addressing the world/nation etc.

He has a tendency to let the most idiotic bullshit spew from his mouth, clearly without any kind of real world sensor to know that what he's saying is full on stupid and could even lead to some sort of crisis depending on time/place he may go off the deepend.

It's inarguable- the man is going to need MAD handlers to keep him from going full retard at the worst possible time.

 

[buckshot24]

pcgeek11's apparent take on Trump reminds me a fair bit of all the people who were duped into voting for Brexit: Thinking that you're going to get all the stuff that you want without any of the bad stuff.

I don't think I've heard anything quite so naive as "checks and balances" in response to blatant racism though. When you voted for Trump, that's what you gave permission for. You've given power so that the rules can be changed according to what your chosen candidate campaigned for.

Even if you reject that argument, why on earth would you vote for him if you don't think he'll do what he says he'll do? Or should we treat what Trump says like how so many Christians treat the Bible: Cherry-pick the bits you want to hear and ignore the bits you don't?

Also, I think it's as cowardly as fuck to try and absolve yourself of voting for a blatant racist by saying that you don't think he'll actually get to follow through on his racist opinions because of the actions of better people.

Muslim isn't a race.

 

[agent00f]

Likewise, I was quite surprised several Hispanics I know voted for Trump, and tell me he wasn't anywhere near as unpopular among their families as its been made out to be.

Turns out, not every Hispanic person ONLY cares about the single issue of illegal immigration. Not every Hispanic person is only concerned with being deported because they are here illegally, or is harboring a bunch of people who are. (Some actually find that idea condescending and insulting.) Some Hispanics actually care about other issues -just like everyone else- and not all run screaming at the words "enforce our immigration laws."

'magine that. The way the left oversold it (as usual) you'd have thought every single Hispanic person was just a carbon copy single issue duplicate of the next.

How white were they?

Muslim isn't a race.

It is to the racists you cover for.

 

[jackstar7]

Muslim isn't a race.

Indeed. So how do you identify them?

 

[buckshot24]

Indeed. So how do you identify them?

By their beliefs.

 

[agent00f]

Indeed. So how do you identify them?

By their beliefs.

Just ask the germans.

 

[mikeymikec]

From your own post:

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population.

a) you don't care that it is racist, b) you're incredibly dim and you don't think it's racist to say that due to your favoured candidate's stated ineptitude, he would pursue a racist policy until he can figure out how not to be racist.

For example: If a major of a city said that non-whites are not allowed into their city until the major can figure out how to bring crime down, what do you think the major is trying to say there?

I also noticed that you haven't responded to any of my other points.

 

[justoh]

If the liberal test for racism is any discrimination against any person, for any reason, who happens to be of a race, then isn't any kind of person discrimination racism? And what does that say about all of us? Is this what liberals mean when they say we are all racists?

 

[pcgeek11]

a) you don't care that it is racist, b) you're incredibly dim and you don't think it's racist to say that due to your favoured candidate's stated ineptitude, he would pursue a racist policy until he can figure out how not to be racist.

For example: If a major of a city said that non-whites are not allowed into their city until the major can figure out how to bring crime down, what do you think the major is trying to say there?

I also noticed that you haven't responded to any of my other points.

That is not racist regardless of what you want it to be. Not allowing Non-Citizens, Refugees, immigrants from areas or countries that are known trouble areas Until they can be properly vetted is not racist. It is NOT the same thing as a mayor not allowing a citizen into his city, regardless of skin color and esp if it was based on skin color.

Two completely different things.


Also notice this, I am not required to respond to your post.

 

[agent00f]

That is not racist regardless of what you want it to be. Not allowing Non-Citizens, Refugees, immigrants from areas or countries that are known trouble areas Until they can be properly vetted is not racist. It is NOT the same thing as a mayor not allowing a citizen into his city, regardless of skin color and esp if it was based on skin color.

Two completely different things.


Also notice this, I am not required to respond to your post.

He's just pointing out that dishonest people have a habit of avoiding points disfavorable to them, and nobody is exactly accusing the trump crowd of integrity.

 

[mikeymikec]

Elaborate please, how does "globalised society" require immigration? What function do immigrants serve that cannot be addressed with local population? Japan certainly never required immigration. I don't think China exactly relies on it either; a lot of Westerners that live in Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc to usually work in banking or tech, otherwise I'm doubtful.

Part of the answer is in the post you responded to. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "require", but I did mean it insofar as allowing that society to work at its optimum work output, which every developed country wants even if it doesn't do its utmost to achieve it.

AFAIK China has an extremely cheap labour force (which means lots of jobs in the current state of affairs). As the average standard of living rises in China and other such countries, the same forces will apply to it as other developed countries, as it develops in a more general degree as the US and many European countries. The standard of living is rising in China, and as that happens, wages go up, working conditions go up, etc. Some of the cheaper jobs will go elsewhere, and some people will go after those jobs if there is no alternative. Some of the more expensive jobs will go elsewhere and some people will leave for those jobs too.

I don't know anything about Japan in this respect (except Japanese immigrants definitely exist, so they left for a reason), so no comment.

If a developed country only trained/educated people for exact roles to suit their future requirements, then maybe immigration theoretically wouldn't be required, but there are several obvious things wrong with that idea:

1) People unexpectedly not being employable any more (death, disability, crime, moving to another country)
2) The unexpected in general (natural disasters, a sudden boom in a particular industry)
3) Is it really likely that all the people born in a given time span are going to grow up to be what that society wants them to be? What if generation 1 has far more intelligent people in than generation 2 (definitely an oversimplification but I hope you see the general point).

It wouldn't change the fact that either you end up having more people than jobs, or not enough people for particular jobs, or a hundred other mismatches, for which immigration fills the gap.

They're higher in the USA for two reasons.

As I said, they're higher in most developed countries. Go and check. The fact that you can find an exception or two means nothing. I would expect to find some exceptions in countries that have been most affected by an influx of refugees for example, because while people moving to where the jobs are is a natural process, a sudden influx of refugees is not natural and so will have a more unnatural effect on a given society, which is why developed nations should be trying to provide a fair share of help to such people.

 

[disappoint]

I have a question for you all. Do you want to live in a free country? In a free society?

I ask what seems like an obvious question with an obvious answer because you don't right now. You don't live free if you don't have freedom of speech and you don't have freedom of speech. You may think you do but you really don't.

Oh sure you're free from criminal prosecution from the U.S. government, but you're not free from violent opposition to your views if you say something a violent person doesn't like.

If you think you have freedom of speech, try making a comic like Charlie Ebdo and see what happens. This is what the government would like to protect you from. Maybe they can't entirely, but they can try.

The question now is: Do you want them to try or not?