Trump wants to privatize the FAA

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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Where are we as a nation exactly?

I work at places where entire IT staffs have been outsourced and operations, system admins, developers, etc...are now foreigners on work visas.

That's an example of capitalism at work. And where innovation gets you. The difference in quality is quite notifeable.

Something as important as air space should not be left to people (read as corporations, don't forget they're people), that have nothing else to do but make money off it.


You having IT to staff is an example of capitalism, and you going to that job is where we are as a nation. It could be much different.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
For many it is, we have half as many people as 10 years ago.

You're not convincing me that this is a smart move. I don't support privatization of infrastructure like the DOT. Just like i don't support privatization of prisons.

There's lots of info out there how capitalism has changed our country since it's inception.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
For many it is, we have half as many people as 10 years ago.

You're not convincing me that this is a smart move. I don't support privatization of infrastructure like the DOT. Just like i don't support privatization of prisons.

There's lots of info out there how capitalism has changed our country since it's inception.


Right, we turned into the most powerful nation on earth. Is that the info you mean?
 

nisryus

Senior member
Sep 11, 2007
752
135
106
We became powerful due to a lot more factors. First during the two World Wars, we were largely insulated from destruction that our European and Asian allies suffered.. (except mainly attack on the Pearl Harbor). Our infrastructure and economy were untouched and we were able to stay above, when comparing to the rest of the world. After the wars, and with many inventions and innovations from NASA, plus through military researches, which assisted the developments of private section, our technology (both public and private) had advanced faster than all others in the world. With military build up during the Cold War, no one can rival us as our bases dotted many strategic locations around the world.

Back to topic.. for Capitalism to work, it has to be market driven with little to some government regulations. I just can't see how market driven would apply to privatize the FAA. Each regional offices would have different regulation and procedures because they are run by different bushiness (bidders that won and got the contract awarded)? What incentive is there for private business to run FAA?
 
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flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
So capitalism is bad right?
I would t be responding to you via electrons on this message board on this tablet in this air conditioned house with wifi and lights and such without it.
Why does the government need to run it?

Capitalism is ultimately that an individual or an entity like a corporate makes profit. And how exactly does this come in or benefit when it comes to governing an entire nation, of 350M people? In how far is capitalism helping there?

This "privatization",now looking at Trump, can also be nothing more or less than transferring responsibility of something (be it FAA, EPA or whatever) to "private" individuals. You want the airspace of the US, security, unemployment, whatever, basically the needs of 350M people "ruled" by individual people?

Not enough that you have a "prep school Heini" without any political experience (Kushner) in gvt? Not enough that you have Trump's daughter which hasn't any experience whatsoever in a position in gvt now? You think placing people MERELY BECAUSE THEY WANT POWER AND WEALTH into gvt positions...giving them control over, say, EPA or the FAA....will have any benefit? You think it's good in a time where there is terrorism and conflict....to use people like this?

Trump thinks that governing "is like business", and IN SOME PARTS it indeed is, but in some other large parts business principles don't apply. (Made worse through the fact that how Trump did business his entire life, by literally fucking over people, is not exactly "optimal" either. But this is now exactly what he does. Fucking over 349.99M people for the benefit of a few. BUSINESS. Yes, exactly!)
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
Right, we turned into the most powerful nation on earth. Is that the info you mean?
Our rise to the top was largely kicked off by WW 2, IIRC. Want to learn? Look up corporate tax rates from that era. Our government didn't just print money to get where we are.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,047
4,805
136
Our rise to the top was largely kicked off by WW 2, IIRC. Want to learn? Look up corporate tax rates from that era. Our government didn't just print money to get where we are.
That combined with income divergence to continue separating the 1% from the rest of reality. I am currently writing a research paper on autonomy and its impact on our society which is where I learned just how far along it really is. For working people in logistics its about to replace you on a larger scale. Taxi drivers are about to go the way of the dodo bird with companies like Uber, Lyft, Udacity, Waymo and Voyager all rapidly developing SAE level 5 autonomous shuttles.

Truck drivers are about to feel the sting as well with SAE level 5 tractors combined with long range hybrid LEV and EV units replacing diesel tractors in the very near future. Companies like Nikola have integrated the shipping side into their trucks eliminating the need for dispatchers and planners as well as maintenance personnel. Freightliner and Peterbuilt both have gas turbine/electric hybrids undergoing validation testing that when combined with autonomy will eliminate the need for a human driver altogether. Then we have to consider the impact they will have on the petroleum industry when their largest fleet customers stop using diesel.

You might think that this will take a while but you are mistaken. U.S. XPRESS is the largest commercial trucking company in the country and they replace their tractors every two years meaning that this turnover will occur quickly. Currently they are backing Nikola and Freightliner and will start incorporating their latest units into their fleet just as soon as they become available. I've seen the fuel savings estimates of using autonomous trucks in a convoy which will only require a human driver in the lead vehicle with the rest following at a specific distances to take advantage of the reduced drag. This NASCAR style drafting is possible because the trucks are in continuous contact with each other so if the front truck has to brake that data is shared with every truck in the convoy so they will simultaneously take the same action.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
It's unreal, buts it's coming, and fast. All we can do is keep telling people about it.

My employer is about to rollout software dispatching, so more people will lose those jobs as well.

The only thing you can't automate is the boots on the ground, aka service. But you sure as he'll can insource them from other countries on work visas
 

SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,431
2,347
136
The Truth About the Big Airlines Push to Privatize Our Nation’s Air Traffic Control System

1. The Airlines Are Pushing for “Privatization” to Gain More Control Over Air Traffic Control
2. Privatization would allow the airlines to collude and engage in anti-competitive behavior.
3, Privatization Would Not Alleviate Delays or Costs
4, Rural communities, agriculture, general aviation and small businesses would lose the most under Privatization
5, There are serious security concerns with privatization
6. There is no evidence that privatization would help to more quickly deploy NextGen and the CBO estimates that privatization would add to our national deficit
7. The Public Wants the FAA to Stay in Control of the Air Traffic Control System.

Our FAA must retain oversight of the nation’s air traffic control system, so that our national aviation system continues to serve consumers and communities of all sizes.
 
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SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,431
2,347
136
Why does the government run the FAA anyways?
Gee, I don't know...why does the government run the Air Force or the Navy?

Cough...National Security?
https://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities/

What we do

Summary of Activities

We're responsible for the safety of civil aviation. The Federal Aviation Act of 1958 created the agency under the name Federal Aviation Agency.
We adopted our present name in 1967 when we became a part of the Department of Transportation. Our major roles include
  • Regulating civil aviation to promote safety
  • Encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology
  • Developing and operating a system of air traffic control and navigation for both civil and military aircraft
  • Researching and developing the National Airspace System and civil aeronautics
  • Developing and carrying out programs to control aircraft noise and other environmental effects of civil aviation
  • Regulating U.S. commercial space transportation
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,431
3,537
126
Back to topic.. for Capitalism to work, it has to be market driven with little to some government regulations. I just can't see how market driven would apply to privatize the FAA. Each regional offices would have different regulation and procedures because they are run by different bushiness (bidders that won and got the contract awarded)? What incentive is there for private business to run FAA?

I doubt we'd be talking about a private business like GE or Ford deciding to run the FAA. It would likely be a board of governors elected\selected from the major interested parties. So you'd have reps from the airlines, unions and government running the show.

There are some serious structural issues facing the FAA particularly in the ATC area. ATCs in some areas are constantly understaffed and thats not something that they have been able to address despite it being a multi-year issue. Much of the ATC still relies on the tracking system "Host" which was built in the 1970s and uses ground based radar because the roll out of NextGen (Which uses GPS) is several years behind schedule and hundreds of millions over budget.

Would privatization fix those issues? Maybe, maybe not. But something really needs to be done.

FWIW Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Australia and New Zealand all have privatized ATC and all the major airlines (except Delta) and the ATC unions are in support of the privatization.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136

Basically this. But it also forgets the biggest reason airlines want privatization. They want to change the fee structure so that general aviation pays the same as commercial. This would reduce their costs, while having a very significant impact on general aviation, especially business jets. Depending how it was implemented, it could basically close air space to all non-rich private individuals, which would also end pilot training in the US.

BTW: This is about privatizing Air Traffic Control, NOT the entirety of the FAA. ATC is basic infrastructure that needs to be seamless over vast areas and needs to be open to many different types of users. I see no good reason to privatize it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
FAA is first point of contact from military to civilian airspace handoff (and vice versa) safety issues. Therefore, it is much easier for the military and civilian government to issue an edict that will be followed once an event takes place.

I shudder to think of what happens when a private corporation's goal to make profit is put above safety in the Federal Airspace, and that's not even the worst of it.

Imagine 911, but instead of contacting the FAA, the military has to go down the list of every single private company running the airspace over each city, county, state, or air corridor. Now imagine these companies putting the military requests second because they make them no money. Now, add to this, the knowledge that the worst thing that would happen is that the corporations would lose their contracts.

My opinion is: This is a recipe for disaster.

This is silly. The military didn't contact the FAA on 9-11, the FAA and its controllers contacted the military. Your theory is far fetched anyways. Once the military is alerted they will have control of the situation.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Ok, ok, ok, apparently you believe that America is incapable of figuring out how to adapt to the modern world. <shrug>

Funny thing about this is apparently there is no way we can copy these European countries ATC systems. Because it is so complex. But we should copy their health care systems. So funny to see people change their view of the same govts when it doesn't fit their idea of how things work.

Interestingly I learned today in many countries this has been privatized.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Anyways I am not against privatizing this function provided it accelerate modernization. We are decades behind the curve right now with the govt solution. But if a privatization wont moves us forward then leave it where it sits.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Funny thing about this is apparently there is no way we can copy these European countries ATC systems. Because it is so complex. But we should copy their health care systems. So funny to see people change their view of the same govts when it doesn't fit their idea of how things work.

Interestingly I learned today in many countries this has been privatized.

I've never seen anyone on the left calling for a national, single payer, private healthcare system. So I really don't see how it is being to point out hypocrisy.

Anyways I am not against privatizing this function provided it accelerate modernization. We are decades behind the curve right now with the govt solution. But if a privatization wont moves us forward then leave it where it sits.

At the end of the day, Congress will have to approve the funds for modernization either way, so I have no idea why privatizing it would all of a sudden get us modernization. Unless the private companies increased fees to crushing levels.

At the end of the day we have a party in control that refuses to increase revenue or funding for infrastructure. The answer isn't selling off all of our infrastructure, it's to kick out the clowns.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
I've never seen anyone on the left calling for a national, single payer, private healthcare system. So I really don't see how it is being to point out hypocrisy.



At the end of the day, Congress will have to approve the funds for modernization either way, so I have no idea why privatizing it would all of a sudden get us modernization. Unless the private companies increased fees to crushing levels.

At the end of the day we have a party in control that refuses to increase revenue or funding for infrastructure. The answer isn't selling off all of our infrastructure, it's to kick out the clowns.

If a bunch of the cash will go to some congress-critter's buddy, it will definitely get done faster.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,843
9,092
136
I'm legitimately curious, has the US federal government successfully (meaning reduced costs AND improved operational efficiency, better outcomes) privatized entire agencies? What sort of track record do we have with that?

I'm asking because I only know of a few examples (Amtrak and the Postal Service) and neither has been that much more successful, but I also don't think they've been fully privatized. There was talk of privatizing NASA to better compete with commercial launch operations, but I'm not sure that's going anywhere.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,047
4,805
136
I'm legitimately curious, has the US federal government successfully (meaning reduced costs AND improved operational efficiency, better outcomes) privatized entire agencies? What sort of track record do we have with that?

I'm asking because I only know of a few examples (Amtrak and the Postal Service) and neither has been that much more successful, but I also don't think they've been fully privatized. There was talk of privatizing NASA to better compete with commercial launch operations, but I'm not sure that's going anywhere.
I was thinking that we should consider privatizing the presidency...oops too late.
 

Roflmouth

Golden Member
Oct 5, 2015
1,059
61
46
Does this mean those geniuses in the TSA who weigh five hundred pounds each and barely speak English would be sent back to McDonald's or their local homeless shelters? If so, I'm all for it.
 
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