IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,098
28,689
136
By this point in his presidency, Bush I had already committed war crimes in Panama and launched his Kuwaiti adventure.

Clinton had already stepped in the burning bag of dog crap (Somalia) that Bush I had left on his door step.

Bush II had already let El Qaeda attack the U.S., let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, and was pitching his Iraq fiasco.

Trump's a dick, sure, but so far he's done nothing comparable.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
By this point in his presidency, Bush I had already committed war crimes in Panama and launched his Kuwaiti adventure.

Clinton had already stepped in the burning bag of dog crap (Somalia) that Bush I had left on his door step.

Bush II had already let El Qaeda attack the U.S., let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, and was pitching his Iraq fiasco.

Trump's a dick, sure, but so far he's done nothing comparable.

Trump is more focused on hurting us domestically than abroad it seems.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,875
36,865
136
Didn't they have to talk him out of invading Venezuela?

Basically nothing except Vietnam can reach Bush II standards of shitty.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,911
9,167
136
I wouldn't put it past this administration to pick an imbalanced fight (read: "winnable") with some poor shithole country if they think it might help win an election.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
Well, I would point out that Trump is a huge fan of ruthless dictatorships and goes out of his way to coddle them. I suspect he loves the idea of murdering the press when it reports uncomfortable truths.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,250
3,820
136
By this point in his presidency, Bush I had already committed war crimes in Panama and launched his Kuwaiti adventure.

Clinton had already stepped in the burning bag of dog crap (Somalia) that Bush I had left on his door step.

Bush II had already let El Qaeda attack the U.S., let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, and was pitching his Iraq fiasco.

Trump's a dick, sure, but so far he's done nothing comparable.

You mean besides becoming Putin's and MBS's little bitch? You mean besides sucking off every oligarch and strongman dictator in the world? You mean besides getting on his knees in front of Kim Jong Un?

You mean besides selling America's soul to the highest bidder?

Okay.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,570
8,469
136
I think to truly screw-up foriegn policy demands a greater attention-span than Trump appears to have. Doing damage abroad requires significantly more knowledge than doing damage at home - it took some very highly-educated people to make a mess of Vietnam and Iraq.

Though doing nothing about climate change is ultimately a foreign-policy issue and might have worse long-term concequences in that respect than either Vietnam or Iraq.
 
Reactions: Mike64

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,531
7,952
136
By this point in his presidency, Bush I had already committed war crimes in Panama and launched his Kuwaiti adventure.

Clinton had already stepped in the burning bag of dog crap (Somalia) that Bush I had left on his door step.

Bush II had already let El Qaeda attack the U.S., let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, and was pitching his Iraq fiasco.

Trump's a dick, sure, but so far he's done nothing comparable.

No he's worse. He's destroying NATO. Don't be surprised if Russia takes Alaska back and the sissy in chief does nothing about because all our NATO allies have left us.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,859
7,391
136
I'm waiting to see what kind of damage Trump can create when he's finally firmly fixed in a corner by Mueller and there's no other way out except to create a threat to the nation that's much worse than the one he and his party of sycophants created out of the need for everlasting control of the nation.

The Grand Diversion as it were. Trump's worst nightmare is that he be relegated to the backwaters of history as the most incompetent gutless POTUS our nation has ever had the displeasure of electing yet he can't help himself from sealing his fate in this regard.
 
Reactions: HomerJS
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
By this point in his presidency, Bush I had already committed war crimes in Panama and launched his Kuwaiti adventure.

Clinton had already stepped in the burning bag of dog crap (Somalia) that Bush I had left on his door step.

Bush II had already let El Qaeda attack the U.S., let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, and was pitching his Iraq fiasco.

Trump's a dick, sure, but so far he's done nothing comparable.

What he has done is work real hard to destroy pretty much every military/economic alliance that the US has. A truly wonderful approach to American foreign policy indeed.
 
Reactions: HomerJS

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,581
28,645
136
I'm waiting to see what kind of damage Trump can create when he's finally firmly fixed in a corner by Mueller and there's no other way out except to create a threat to the nation that's much worse than the one he and his party of sycophants created out of the need for everlasting control of the nation.

The Grand Diversion as it were. Trump's worst nightmare is that he be relegated to the backwaters of history as the most incompetent gutless POTUS our nation has ever had the displeasure of electing yet he can't help himself from sealing his fate in this regard.

What you stated is already a living history
 

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,175
2,902
136
Certainly agree when it comes to comparing to GWB. GWB is a mass-murdering invader who deserves to be mentioned with certain others in history that have invaded other countries "in the name of security" and racked up a high body count. Depending on sources, several hundred thousand to a million. Not to mention helping ISIS form and grow, sowing a whole new giant crop of orphans who hate the US, and a truly huge amount of money spent for absolutely nothing (unless you are a blackwater shareholder). All for lies over WMDs.

And yes I hold their cowardice against Democrats like Hillary, who bent over and took it rather than look like "traitors" in the bloodlust that people called patriotism at the time.
 

Mike64

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2011
2,108
101
91
Well, I would point out that Trump is a huge fan of ruthless dictatorships and goes out of his way to coddle them. I suspect he loves the idea of murdering the press when it reports uncomfortable truths.
Tbh, except when those "ruthless dictatorships" happened to be of the socialist/communist persuasion, that's been standard US Foreign policy since... (Oh, right... NVM, delete the word the "since" in the preceding sentence. And no, the "modern" PRC does not count. The Chinese government is about as "communist" as Barry Goldwater was...)
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
Tbh, except when those "ruthless dictatorships" happened to be of the socialist/communist persuasion, that's been standard US Foreign policy since... (Oh, right... NVM, delete the word the "since" in the preceding sentence. And now, the "modern" PRC does not count. The Chinese government is about as "communist" as Barry Goldwater was...)

Oh yeah, I'm not denying the problems with the US' tendency to prop up bad regimes. It's just that Trump seems to revere dictatorships for their own sake, like he's envious of their absolute rule and power to kill political opponents.

With Russia you can see the financial motivations (Trump panders because he hopes to get a real estate deal). With North Korea, though? He had no reason to be as kind to Kim Jong Un as he did, even if he saw a deal as a a cynical public relations ploy. I think Trump genuinely wishes he had Kim Jong Un's total control.
 
Reactions: Meghan54

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
OP said something not explicitly negative about Trump. AT P&N reacts accordingly.

You mentioned foreign policy so whatever happens is fair game. Trump really doesn't have a foreign policy so its hard to cite failures. He's alienated our allies, Europe is now forced to view us as an enemy since Trump does. That will be great to have more nukes pointed at us one day. Embraces murderous prince and lies about the murder. Protects pal Putin and won't act proportionately to Russia's attack but why is a matter that may be answered by current investigations. Certainly Trump publically asked Russia to hack the Dems, that was nice too. So he doesn't have policies, he blusters well and alienates and still manages to toss the occasional drone. So far? No new war so that's good.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,570
8,469
136
Europe is now forced to view us as an enemy since Trump does.

Trump views the US as an enemy? Is that what you meant to say or is it a failure of syntax?

It's not an indefensible claim, to be fair, so it's hard to tell.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Trump views the US as an enemy? Is that what you meant to say or is it a failure of syntax?

It's not an indefensible claim, to be fair, so it's hard to tell.

Could be both I suppose. Trump views Europe as an enemy so Europe needs to consider the US as the same.
 

Mike64

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2011
2,108
101
91
It's just that Trump seems to revere dictatorships for their own sake
Yeah, well he is one very strange bird. I still feel like I have no rational basis for analyzing most of what he does except on an abnormal psych basis; watching him in action just feels like watching a young child reacting to "stuff" without any discernible cognitive rhyme or reason (except for the pandering to his political base...)
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,250
5,693
146
Yeah OP, you're forgetting that he's trying to dismantle NATO, that even with his cowtowing he still almost triggered a serious confrontation between us and Russia due to Syria. He seems to be working to enable Israel and Saudi Arabia working to seed chaos in the Middle East (they're every bit the instigators that Iran is, and that includes their attempts at espionage in the US and attempts to manipulate our government).

Isn't Russia fucking around in Ukraine again too? If Turmp stands down and lets Russia fuck Ukraine, that is going to tell Europe that we're compromised and can't be relied on (which will have ramifications for probably the next century...), and Russia is gonna see blood in the water and they're gonna up their aggression even more.

Oh yeah, I'm not denying the problems with the US' tendency to prop up bad regimes. It's just that Trump seems to revere dictatorships for their own sake, like he's envious of their absolute rule and power to kill political opponents.

With Russia you can see the financial motivations (Trump panders because he hopes to get a real estate deal). With North Korea, though? He had no reason to be as kind to Kim Jong Un as he did, even if he saw a deal as a a cynical public relations ploy. I think Trump genuinely wishes he had Kim Jong Un's total control.

I don't know, Turmp probably did make an inquiry into setting up a resort there or something. Hell, maybe NK even offered it. They have that giant empty pyramid hotel building...

I think the NK stuff though was mostly that people told him "no US President has ever been able to make meaningful progress with them" and Turmp, believing he really is this master deal maker, thought he'd be able to get a deal done in a weekend. And then he met his match in basically a younger North Korean version of himself (Turmp and Jong Un are more alike than they're different).
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,570
8,469
136
Yeah OP, you're forgetting that he's trying to dismantle NATO, that even with his cowtowing he still almost triggered a serious confrontation between us and Russia due to Syria. He seems to be working to enable Israel and Saudi Arabia working to seed chaos in the Middle East (they're every bit the instigators that Iran is, and that includes their attempts at espionage in the US and attempts to manipulate our government).

Isn't Russia fucking around in Ukraine again too? If Turmp stands down and lets Russia fuck Ukraine, that is going to tell Europe that we're compromised and can't be relied on (which will have ramifications for probably the next century...), and Russia is gonna see blood in the water and they're gonna up their aggression even more.



I don't know, Turmp probably did make an inquiry into setting up a resort there or something. Hell, maybe NK even offered it. They have that giant empty pyramid hotel building...

I think the NK stuff though was mostly that people told him "no US President has ever been able to make meaningful progress with them" and Turmp, believing he really is this master deal maker, thought he'd be able to get a deal done in a weekend. And then he met his match in basically a younger North Korean version of himself (Turmp and Jong Un are more alike than they're different).


Though he _hasn't_ dismantled NATO. And, while Dubya may not have been the smartest President ever, when it came to foreign policy he did have very focused and ideologically-driven advisors and was capable of listening to them and getting on board with them. Not sure whether Trump has a Rumsfeld or a Wolfowitz (probably not) but even if he does he certainly isn't capable of listening to them or even understanding what they are saying.

If Trump had a focus and ideological certainty about foreign policy to match that of the neo-cons, he'd probably have seen that (antipathy to NATO) through to it's logical conclusion. Instead he simply doesn't seem that interested in the world outside his domestic prejudices, and gets pulled this-way-and-that depending on which insiders he comes under the influence of at any given moment (which seems to me to explain that oddly ritualistic cruise-missile assualt on Syria, which as far as I can make out cost more in US ordnance than it did in damage to Assad's forces)

You can accuse him of not standing up to US enemies, but then the manner of such 'standing up' has not, with past, smarter, Presidents, necessarily been a good thing anyway.

I still think that in foreign-policy (and that alone) he hasn't (yet) plumbed the depths that some of his predecessors did. And it's largely because he's just not that interested in it.

What he _has_ done, certainly, is undermine the image of the US globally. I believe the surveys show every country that isn't Israel now has a more negative view of the US. He makes the US look unreliable and a bit ridiculous (mind you, I'm just waiting till Boris Johnson becomes PM...sigh).
 
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Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,250
3,820
136
Certainly agree when it comes to comparing to GWB. GWB is a mass-murdering invader who deserves to be mentioned with certain others in history that have invaded other countries "in the name of security" and racked up a high body count. Depending on sources, several hundred thousand to a million. Not to mention helping ISIS form and grow, sowing a whole new giant crop of orphans who hate the US, and a truly huge amount of money spent for absolutely nothing (unless you are a blackwater shareholder). All for lies over WMDs.

And yes I hold their cowardice against Democrats like Hillary, who bent over and took it rather than look like "traitors" in the bloodlust that people called patriotism at the time.

There were a few like you in the 30's as well.. You would have sucked off Hitler rather than risk stubbing your toe in combat.

Then again, people beyond counting died throughout history, so you could spout your bullshit.. All in the name of what you call "bloodlust".
 
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