Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Border With Syria

[Jaskalas]

Dropping barrel bombs on towns and cities and now carpet bombing by the Russians aren't going to win you the support of your people.

No one asked how the Germans or Japanese felt about our bombs. Maybe we should have stopped winning the war to instead win hearts and minds.

OR... when blood is in the air you don't stop to ask for permission or support. When it comes to military conquest only submission matters. Pick the winning side or pick a grave. That's how Saddam ruled Iraq. That's how anyone restores order in the Middle East.

We directly fuel terrorism found across the region by arming terrorists and deposing governments. Our policy is a threat to the world, and Turkey carries it out.

 

[Zorkorist]

We should have continued the Iraq War and maintained a leadership presence in the region. Today the region is more scary than ever.

-John

 

[Pocatello]

No one asked how the Germans or Japanese felt about our bombs. Maybe we should have stopped winning the war to instead win hearts and minds.

OR... when blood is in the air you don't stop to ask for permission or support. When it comes to military conquest only submission matters. Pick the winning side or pick a grave. That's how Saddam ruled Iraq. That's how anyone restores order in the Middle East.

We directly fuel terrorism found across the region by arming terrorists and deposing governments. Our policy is a threat to the world, and Turkey carries it out.

Somehow I don't think support the Assad regime is going to stop terrorism in the West. Those French terrorists are French citizens who became radicalized. The West needs to understand why so many young Muslims in their own countries are turning into terrorists or becoming radicalized.

 

[bshole]

Somehow I don't think support the Assad regime is going to stop terrorism in the West. Those French terrorists are French citizens who became radicalized. The West needs to understand why so many young Muslims in their own countries are turning into terrorists or becoming radicalized.

Refusal to integrate because their religion says so?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ine-publishing-cartoons-Prophet-Mohammed.html

The problem is the West's tolerance of anti-freedom religious zealots who actively seek the demise of Western civilization.

 

[shady28]

Refusal to integrate because their religion says so?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ine-publishing-cartoons-Prophet-Mohammed.html

The problem is the West's tolerance of anti-freedom religious zealots who actively seek the demise of Western civilization.

Gotta love that sign in one of the pics.

Here's a close-up :

 

[IronWing]

We should have continued the Iraq War and maintained a leadership presence in the region. Today the region is more scary than ever.

-John

You go first.

 

[blastingcap]

Refusal to integrate because their religion says so?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ine-publishing-cartoons-Prophet-Mohammed.html

The problem is the West's tolerance of anti-freedom religious zealots who actively seek the demise of Western civilization.

Why is this? If one decries hardcore fundamentalist cults/churches like Westboro Baptist (the infamous "GodHatesFags" church), many people are ok with that. But the same people rush in kneejerk "defenses" of Islam. Is it because they are ignorant? Do they not realize that Islam has not had a Reformation and still says stuff like how women's testimony is worth 1/4 that of a man's, allows honor killings, tolerates slavery, and where leaving Islam (going atheist or converting to another religion) or being gay is punishable by death?

You can't have it both ways: Either you are for minorities' rights, including women's rights and gay rights and freedom from slavery and freedom to practice whatever religion you choose, or you are with Islam.

The worst part is how under Islamic law, apostates should be given the death penalty, and how a surprisingly high percentage of the Muslim world agrees with this penalty. So many people feel intimidated when they try to leave. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ (Ask Muslims in Muslim-majority countries how they feel pressured to toe the line: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim )

This is a map of states that have the death penalty for apostasy (also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam and http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/28/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/ ):

 

[norseamd]

http://atlanticsentinel.com/2015/11/why-did-turkey-shoot-down-that-russian-jet/

 

[bshole]

This is a map of states that have the death penalty for apostasy (also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam and http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/28/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/ ):

That is so utterly fucked. A death penalty for apostasy. And the solution is to bomb them into dropping their dark ages beliefs?

 

[Jaskalas]

Turkey Arrests Generals for Stopping Syria-Bound Trucks 'Filled With Arms'

Turns out if you don't arm terrorists you are removed from the Turkish military. There are disputes as to who was being armed, but earlier reports indicate ISIS.
We are watching the death of a moderate Turkey, are we not?

 

[bshole]

Turkey Arrests Generals for Stopping Syria-Bound Trucks 'Filled With Arms'

Turns out if you don't arm terrorists you are removed from the Turkish military. There are disputes as to who was being armed, but earlier reports indicate ISIS.
We are watching the death of a moderate Turkey, are we not?

...probably more poison fruit from the Bush's Mission Accomplished in Iraq. So lets go running in again and do some more "fixin", perhaps we could parlay this into a full blown WWIII with nuclear armed adversaries.

 

[fskimospy]

Turkey Arrests Generals for Stopping Syria-Bound Trucks 'Filled With Arms'

Turns out if you don't arm terrorists you are removed from the Turkish military. There are disputes as to who was being armed, but earlier reports indicate ISIS.
We are watching the death of a moderate Turkey, are we not?

Why are you linking to Russian state propaganda? Sputnik news is part of the Russian government. On what planet do you think they would be reliable?

You are being duped again.

 

[Jaskalas]

Why are you linking to Russian state propaganda? Sputnik news is part of the Russian government. On what planet do you think they would be reliable?

You are being duped again.

Why am I linking? Because they showed up on the Worldnews Reddit.
Are you seriously thinking Russia is the source of news from Turkey?

Try again, can you address the topic or do you just flail at the messenger?
Here's another, given I don't know how many news agencies you care to slander.

The incident triggered a huge controversy in Turkey with many bashing the government for explicitly supporting terrorism in Syria.

Is it really so hard to believe that Turkey equals terrorism? Obama and Clinton setup the original supply line from Benghazi.

 

[fskimospy]

Why am I linking? Because they showed up on the Worldnews Reddit.
Are you seriously thinking Russia is the source of news from Turkey?

Try again, can you address the topic or do you just flail at the messenger?
Here's another, given I don't know how many news agencies you care to slander.
Is it really so hard to believe that Turkey equals terrorism? Obama and Clinton setup the original supply line from Benghazi.

You literally linked Russian propaganda. Why on earth is calling out propaganda as propaganda 'slander'?

As for your other links, PressTV is once again, literally state run media by Iran.

Tasmin News is a website with the publicly stated aim of providing media support to the government of Iran.

Seriously guy, you've now linked two state media propaganda sources and one source that states its purpose is to support one of those governments. This is embarrassing. How are you so easily fooled?

 

[norseamd]

Because they showed up on the Worldnews Reddit.

I have not heard a lot of good things about that subreddit, and the only reason I do not know that much about it is because I rarely go over there. There are more than a few other subreddits of high quality you can read for good world affairs type news.

 

[norseamd]

Once a Hawk, Brzezinski Sees Hope for U.S.-Russia Relations

A Cold War hardliner explains why this time is very different.

As Jimmy Carter’s national security advisor in the mid-to-late 1970s, Zbigniew Brzezinski had a reputation as a Cold War hawk, engaging in a famous feud with the more dovish Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, who later resigned in protest. Brzezinski urged pushback against the Soviet bloc on a number of fronts, and when Moscow invaded Afghanistan in 1980, he pressed Carter to begin the process of funding the mujahideen so as to drain Soviet power. Today, however, despite a new round of escalating tensions between the United States and Russia, Brzezinski is far more sanguine about relations between Moscow and Washington, arguing that U.S. and Russian interests are in fact aligned in many ways. He spoke this week with Politico Magazine National Editor Michael Hirsh.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...or-us-russia-relations-interview-hirsh-213400

 

[Jaskalas]

You literally linked Russian propaganda. Why on earth is calling out propaganda as propaganda 'slander'?

As for your other links, PressTV is once again, literally state run media by Iran.

Tasmin News is a website with the publicly stated aim of providing media support to the government of Iran.

Seriously guy, you've now linked two state media propaganda sources and one source that states its purpose is to support one of those governments. This is embarrassing. How are you so easily fooled?

Oh look, another news agency.
So it's a world wide conspiracy to report this news? Why would they do that?

And wtf is so difficult about accepting Turkey as having arrested high ranking members of its military for treason over intercepting arms for Syria? You already know they're shipping arms to Syria AND when Turkish media dared to cover this story, Erdogan raided their offices and threw them in jail.

Fooled? You're going !@#$ crazy trying to swat down this story and it's time you actually commented on it. Elaborate for us, why is it so important for you to attack this?

 

[shady28]

You literally linked Russian propaganda. Why on earth is calling out propaganda as propaganda 'slander'?

As for your other links, PressTV is once again, literally state run media by Iran.

Tasmin News is a website with the publicly stated aim of providing media support to the government of Iran.

Seriously guy, you've now linked two state media propaganda sources and one source that states its purpose is to support one of those governments. This is embarrassing. How are you so easily fooled?

Turkey's complicity with ISIS is already well documented in this post.


But if you want more, the best way to find it is to search for "turkey ISIS oil" on google and limit your time frame to 1/1/2014 to 8/1/2015.

If you really had an ounce of critical thinking skills, maybe you would be asking why that news - which was in multiple western media outlets - has suddenly disappeared from our vaunted "independent" western media.

Here are some examples :


This is a shining example - prosecutors have trucks carrying weapons to Syria stopped and searched, they find weapons but the prosecutors wind up getting arrested.

This is from Reuters.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...rms-idUSKBN0O61L220150521#5XqIpv2pFf38G3lB.97


"Exclusive: Turkish intelligence helped ship arms to Syrian Islamist rebel areas"

Testimony from gendarmerie officers in court documents reviewed by Reuters allege that rocket parts, ammunition and semi-finished mortar shells were carried in trucks accompanied by state intelligence agency (MIT) officials more than a year ago to parts of Syria under Islamist control.
...
President Tayyip Erdogan has said the three trucks stopped on Jan. 19 belonged to MIT and were carrying aid.
...
Both Sisman and Aziz Takci, another Adana prosecutor who ordered three trucks to be searched on Jan. 19 2014, have since been detained on the orders of state prosecutors and face provisional charges, pending a full indictment, of carrying out an illegal search.

And here from CNN :

(CNN)The Turkish president says a journalist will pay "a high price" for publishing leaked video footage that purports to show the country's intelligence agency sending weapons to Syria.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Sunday called out the head of Cumhuriyet -- a secularist pro-opposition newspaper -- in a live broadcast for publishing the footage.

"The person who published this story as an exclusive story will, I believe, pay a high price for this. I will not leave him be," said Erdogan, speaking to state broadcaster TRT.

Here we have the US Treasury accusing them of buying smuggled oil :

"October 23, 2014 7:23 pm
Isis sells smuggled oil to Turkey and Iraqi Kurds, says US Treasury"

Link


So hopefully that is put to rest.

Now here's a question for you.

Why did the western media suddenly stop covering these types of stories after the Russians began bombing in Syria?

 

[shady28]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html

COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK

INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF HUMAN RIGHTS

Research Paper: ISIS-Turkey Links

...
Columbia University's Program on Peace-building and Rights assigned a team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Turkey to examine Turkish and international media, assessing the credibility of allegations. This report draws on a variety of international sources -- The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Daily Mail, BBC, Sky News, as well as Turkish sources, CNN Turk, Hurriyet Daily News, Taraf, Cumhuriyet, and Radikal among others.

....
Turkey Offers Medical Care to ISIS Fighters

• An ISIS commander told the Washington Post on August 12, 2014, "We used to have some fighters -- even high-level members of the Islamic State -- getting treated in Turkish hospitals."

...

Turkey Assists ISIS Recruitment

• Kemal Kiliçdaroğlu claimed on October 14, 2014 that ISIS offices in Istanbul and Gaziantep are used to recruit fighters. On October 10, 2014, the mufti of Konya said that 100 people from Konya joined ISIS 4 days ago. (See HERE and HERE.)

...

Turkey Helped ISIS in Battle for Kobani

• Released by Nuhaber, a video shows Turkish military convoys carrying tanks and ammunition moving freely under ISIS flags in the Cerablus region and Karkamis border crossing (September 25, 2014). There are writings in Turkish on the trucks.

...

Turkey and ISIS Share a Worldview

• According to the Hurriyet Daily News on September 26, 2014, "The feelings of the AKP's heavyweights are not limited to Ankara. I was shocked to hear words of admiration for ISIL from some high-level civil servants even in Şanliurfa. 'They are like us, fighting against seven great powers in the War of Independence,' one said." "Rather than the [Kurdistan Workers' Party] PKK on the other side, I would rather have ISIL as a neighbor," said another."

• An AKP council member posted on his Facebook page: "Thankfully ISIS exists... May you never run out of ammunition..."

• A Turkish Social Security Institution supervisor uses the ISIS logo in internal correspondences.

• Bilal Erdogan and Turkish officials meet alleged ISIS fighters.

 

[fskimospy]

Turkey's complicity with ISIS is already well documented in this post.


But if you want more, the best way to find it is to search for "turkey ISIS oil" on google and limit your time frame to 1/1/2014 to 8/1/2015.

If you really had an ounce of critical thinking skills, maybe you would be asking why that news - which was in multiple western media outlets - has suddenly disappeared from our vaunted "independent" western media.

Here are some examples :


This is a shining example - prosecutors have trucks carrying weapons to Syria stopped and searched, they find weapons but the prosecutors wind up getting arrested.

This is from Reuters.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...rms-idUSKBN0O61L220150521#5XqIpv2pFf38G3lB.97


"Exclusive: Turkish intelligence helped ship arms to Syrian Islamist rebel areas"




And here from CNN :





Here we have the US Treasury accusing them of buying smuggled oil :

"October 23, 2014 7:23 pm
Isis sells smuggled oil to Turkey and Iraqi Kurds, says US Treasury"

Link


So hopefully that is put to rest.

Now here's a question for you.

Why did the western media suddenly stop covering these types of stories after the Russians began bombing in Syria?

Uhmm, they didn't. Just google Isis oil sales turkey and you will see plenty of stories about it from western media.

If you had just an ounce of ability to use google that would be enough, you don't even need the critical thinking ability that you obviously don't have.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh look, another news agency.
So it's a world wide conspiracy to report this news? Why would they do that?

And wtf is so difficult about accepting Turkey as having arrested high ranking members of its military for treason over intercepting arms for Syria? You already know they're shipping arms to Syria AND when Turkish media dared to cover this story, Erdogan raided their offices and threw them in jail.

Fooled? You're going !@#$ crazy trying to swat down this story and it's time you actually commented on it. Elaborate for us, why is it so important for you to attack this?

What the hell are you talking about? I couldn't care less about that story in particular, but the idea that you can trust Russian and Iranian propaganda outlets to report on it accurately is sheer stupidity. You have to be able to evaluate sources better.

If you want to discuss it intelligently, use sources that aren't propaganda sites. Shouldn't you want to be better informed? I mean who wants to be deliberately misled?

 

[Brian Stirling]

Turkey is playing both sides against the middle. They're permitting US warplanes to be based in Turkey while at the same time turning a blind eye to oil shipments out of and weapons shipments into ISIS controlled Syria. They've also done a piss poor job in limiting access to jihadists and it's likely that the most wanted man in the Paris attacks has found his way back to Syria -- through Turkey.

Erdogan is not our friend!

Russia is not our friend!

The enemy of our enemy may not be our friend!


Brian

 

[Jaskalas]

Russia says it has proof Turkey involved in Islamic State oil trade

War of words is heating up. It's also convincing when you pair Russia's claims to known evidence of Turkey arming Syrian terrorists. Why wouldn't the same terrorists return the favor... in oil?

And why wouldn't Turkey close the border? Because they are involved... deeply involved, with our enemy.

 

[DrunkenSano]

Erdogan is not our friend!

Russia is not our friend!

The enemy of our enemy may not be our friend!


Brian

Pretty much this, I said the same thing earlier. We have no friends in the Middle East, everyone there will try to use US power to their own agendas. We really should pull out and stop wasting money there, we have enough problems at home to deal with that needs money.

Let them wipe each other out. Diplomacy won't work there, we do not have the right mindset or the money to achieve military dominance in the area. Religious conflict has raging in that area for over a thousand years, we won't be the ones to stop it.

 

[Pandora's Box]

http://tapnewswire.com/2015/11/us-a...russia-deploys-7000-troops-to-turkish-border/

Russian President Vladimir Putin has issued orders to deploy nearly 7,000 troops, anti-aircraft, rocket launchers, and artillery forces to the Turkish border, and for them to be in readiness for full combat.