Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Border With Syria

[norseamd]

Guessing we can start expecting to see a lot more articles like this from the Russian media from now on.

https://www.rt.com/news/323557-turkey-arrests-editor-cumhuriyet/

 

[fskimospy]

Turkey's Erdogan says Russia should apologise

Islamic tyrant acting from a position of strength?
Seems he really wants to double down. Don't !@#$ with his terrorists.

It's not like something like this was unforseeable. Putin has been deliberately provoking nato for awhile now. He just didn't expect that Turkey's leadership was as reckless as he is.

Don't you think the Russian tyrant should apologize for repeatedly acting aggressively against his neighbors?

 

[Jaskalas]

It's not like something like this was unforseeable. Putin has been deliberately provoking nato for awhile now. He just didn't expect that Turkey's leadership was as reckless as he is.

Don't you think the Russian tyrant should apologize for repeatedly acting aggressively against his neighbors?

Europe is another matter, this is the Middle East we're talking about. With a Turkey that arms ISIS and attacks those who fight ISIS. In a contest like this I'm sure as hell not siding with Turkey.

If Russia wants to protect Assad and stabilize Syria, why should we oppose that? We shouldn't we assist that?

 

[alcoholbob]

Europe is another matter, this is the Middle East we're talking about. With a Turkey that arms ISIS and attacks those who fight ISIS. In a contest like this I'm sure as hell not siding with Turkey.

If Russia wants to protect Assad and stabilize Syria, why should we oppose that? We shouldn't we assist that?

Because Saudi Arabia wants Assad gone and they back the US Dollar with their oil and OPEC sells in whatever currency in the Saudis do? Since we off-shored our manufacturing, what the hell is going to pay for our gigantic federal government? If you want to say goodbye to the Middle East and the Saudis you can say hello to a massive recession in the US that could last decades and the end of US hegemony internationally as we know it.

 

[Darwin333]

Latakia is not 100miles form where the SU-24 was shoot down. Its only 28 miles.

Also, you dont go straight to the missile. You are trying to go as far away from the missile, increase your altitude making rapid turns (left and right) in order to make the Missile to exhaust its fuel and its kinetic energy before it will reach you.

edit: There are also other techniques you do to brake radar lock and using ECMs etc.

Well that's certainly a game changer if they are using the SAMs that go 4,800 M/S which is roughly 3 miles per second. Not sure if they get any warning from the radar before the missile is fired but once fired they would have roughly 9 seconds to react and evade and they damn sure aren't outrunning it.

Question: If the SAM misses can it radically change direction and reacquire it's target, like if it overshoots it's target so the SAM is heading in the opposite direction of the plane, and does it burn all/most of it's fuel at launch? I ask because it seems like the g-forces alone from any sort of significantly quick change in direction at that kind of speed would be tremendous.

 

[norseamd]

Well that's certainly a game changer if they are using the SAMs that go 4,800 M/S which is roughly 3 miles per second. Not sure if they get any warning from the radar before the missile is fired but once fired they would have roughly 9 seconds to react and evade and they damn sure aren't outrunning it.

Most military aircraft have radar warning receivers.

 

[fskimospy]

Europe is another matter, this is the Middle East we're talking about. With a Turkey that arms ISIS and attacks those who fight ISIS. In a contest like this I'm sure as hell not siding with Turkey.

If Russia wants to protect Assad and stabilize Syria, why should we oppose that? We shouldn't we assist that?

Because Russia's actions won't actually stabilize Syria. It's way too small and way too late.

Europe is not another matter. Russia has become a rogue nation and needs to be contained. While the situation in Syria overall is probably hurt by this, Putin will need several bloody noses before he realizes his actions have consequences.

 

[MongGrel]

Guessing we can start expecting to see a lot more articles like this from the Russian media from now on.

https://www.rt.com/news/323557-turkey-arrests-editor-cumhuriyet/

Well, there is a surprise.

()

 

[Darwin333]

The Pentagon's Flying Decoy Super Weapon Is About To Get Much Deadlier

The most impressive thing in that article, not dogging on the weapon, sounds awesome but I've never heard the following about any high tech US weapons/.mil system EVER.

Since then, over 1,000 MALDs have been delivered, with 33 out of 33 test flights being a successful and the program has performed consistently under budget during the last half decade of its maturation and development.

 

[MongGrel]

The most impressive thing in that article, not dogging on the weapon, sounds awesome but I've never heard the following about any high tech US weapons/.mil system EVER.

Is a bit of a break from the norm, but it is just combining some older tried and true programs together into a workable solution from what I see.

An ECM cruise missile.

They probably over budgeted for development on that one to begin with.

 

[Jaskalas]

Because Saudi Arabia wants Assad gone...

So when it comes to whose pulling the strings, it's Saudi -> US -> Turkey -> ISIS? We're just a willing patsy following along with the spread of genocidal Islamic terrorism?

Because if your smart enough to learn anything from Iraq, it's that regime change births terror. You shouldn't want to keep doing that to more countries. You shouldn't be following the Neocon agenda, because people used to think that Barrack Obama was elected in 2008 to put an end to it. Not to keep pushing it.

 

[AtenRa]

Well that's certainly a game changer if they are using the SAMs that go 4,800 M/S which is roughly 3 miles per second. Not sure if they get any warning from the radar before the missile is fired but once fired they would have roughly 9 seconds to react and evade and they damn sure aren't outrunning it.

Turkish F-16 have RWRs, but they lack Missile Approach Warning.

The S400 radar (AESA) can lock the aircraft way within Turkish territory if they wanted to. Im sure the radar can see a high altitude F-16 at more than 200-300Km.
Also, the S400 will not fire when the enemy aircraft is so close to the boarder. And the Russian policy is to fire two missiles at a few secs apart from each other.

Question: If the SAM misses can it radically change direction and reacquire it's target, like if it overshoots it's target so the SAM is heading in the opposite direction of the plane, and does it burn all/most of it's fuel at launch? I ask because it seems like the g-forces alone from any sort of significantly quick change in direction at that kind of speed would be tremendous.

The missiles dont detonate on impact, they detonate before the impact in order for the warhead to explode and cover a larger area in order to hit the aircraft and do more damage. So no i dont thing the S400 missile is capable of reacquire the target.
And yes Missiles are capable of turning at 30-50 or more Gs. Some missiles use all the fuel at launch, others use it for more time. For the S400 i believe it will use fuel for some time after the launch in order to reach those long ranges that is capable off.

 

[MongGrel]

Turkish F-16 have RWRs, but they lack Missile Approach Warning.

The S400 radar (AESA) can lock the aircraft way within Turkish territory if they wanted to. Im sure the radar can see a high altitude F-16 at more than 200-300Km.

They do seem to work well on Civilian Airliners...

 

[Brian Stirling]

The longest range SAM I could find that Turkey has is the Hawk, which has its origins in the 1960s. Its range is only 45-50km, and it's very slow (Mach 2.5). Entirely possible an SU-30 could outrun / outrange it. The missiles in the S-400 move at Mach 14 (11,000 MPH or just over 3 miles / second) and have a range over 250km.

The only other SAMs they have are Stingers and Rapiers (Rapier is short range ~1.5 mile, introduced in 1971). Which explains why they shot the Su-24 down by an F-16 and not a SAM.

They do have the AMRAAM, but their best is the 120C variant with a range of 105km / 57 mi. The D variant (which they don't have) is the 97mi range one.

The Russian R-77-1 and K-77 outrange all but the 120C.

Basically what Russia can and has fielded outclasses what Turkey has. Unless someone drops some 3rd gen Patriots and 120D AMRAAMs on Turkey, which given how reckless Erdogan has proven himself to be is quite unlikely, Russia owns the skies in that area.


Source

Mach 14 -- LOL!

The fastest missile I see for the S-400 is the 48N6 and it's listed at 6.9M --still fast but not quite mach 14. And, while it's range is listed at 250km the fact is it's not going mach 6.9 over that entire range and in fact it reaches mach 6.9 and then coasts for much of the range. At the longer ranges with the missile motor burned out and coasting the trick is to get the missile to maneuver and scrub even more speed.

And again, an F-16 firing an AIM-120 is a very capable system. Russia does NOT own the skies as they are playing an away game and Turkey is the home team with considerably more assets at there disposal. Yes, if Russia was to depopulate there home defenses and bring there full kit to the region then Turkey would be in a world of hurt, but so far that isn't the case.

It's sounding more like both sides are looking to deescalate so perhaps we won't get to see how this plays out.


Brian

 

[Darwin333]

Most military aircraft have radar warning receivers.

I know that, I'm just curious how much more warning they get than the 9 second missile flight time. Does the radar light up and take 5 seconds to lock on and fire? 10 seconds? 60 seconds?

 

[Brian Stirling]

Don't they generally fire more than one missile right after another to make that maneuver much harder? I mean if they fire it at it's max range the pilots can simply turn around and outrun the thing but not sure about intermediate ranges and multiple SAMs.

The more missiles fired the harder to avoid being shot down -- no question about it. But at longer ranges after the missiles motors have burned out they scrub speed real quick as they are forced to maneuver. And the missiles aren't cheap.

The bigger problem the Russians have is that any engagement they might make against a Turkish aircraft is going to be in or near Turkish airspace and it's likely that the Turkish aircraft would be shot down over Turkish territory and that would be a very dangerous escalation.


Brian

 

[Darwin333]

Turkish F-16 have RWRs, but they lack Missile Approach Warning.

The S400 radar (AESA) can lock the aircraft way within Turkish territory if they wanted to. Im sure the radar can see a high altitude F-16 at more than 200-300Km.
Also, the S400 will not fire when the enemy aircraft is so close to the boarder. And the Russian policy is to fire two missiles at a few secs apart from each other.

That's what I thought. Basically you out-maneuver one (often bleeding off energy, correct?) and the other has time to adjust it's path for a kill. The time frame alone makes it difficult but If I'm correct about the bleeding energy part the plane won't have nearly as much energy to try and out-maneuver the second missile.

The missiles dont detonate on impact, they detonate before the impact in order for the warhead to explode and cover a larger area in order to hit the aircraft and do more damage. So no i dont thing the S400 missile is capable of reacquire the target.

I thought this was how most SAMs work? Send a ton of shrapnel at the plane to damage systems, flight surfaces and to get sucked into the engine inlets.

And yes Missiles are capable of turning at 30-50 or more Gs. Some missiles use all the fuel at launch, others use it for more time. For the S400 i believe it will use fuel for some time after the launch in order to reach those long ranges that is capable off.

Wow, I had no idea that missiles could handle so many Gs, 50Gs is crazy. Especially considering it's on the side of the missile, I'm not sure of the term but versus the "horizontal axis" that is designed to handle the G load from firing.

Thanks for the reply bud.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Latakia is not 100miles form where the SU-24 was shoot down. Its only 28 miles.

Also, you dont go straight to the missile. You are trying to go as far away from the missile, increase your altitude making rapid turns (left and right) in order to make the Missile to exhaust its fuel and its kinetic energy before it will reach you.

edit: There are also other techniques you do to brake radar lock and using ECMs etc.

I get about 71 miles, not sure where you're getting 28 miles from.

At greater range you would probably try to turn and run but at closer range you're not going to outrun a mach 6 missile and maneuvering AWAY from a missile doesn't put the same maneuvering challenge on the missile. When a missile is closer you have to fly towards it as that puts an impossible maneuvering burden on the missile if the jink is done at the right time.

If my measurement of 71 miles is near correct that would likely put the S-400 missile at the end of the burn and might be a kind of toss up as to whether to run away or turn towards the missile, but I'd guess the missile would still be moving real fast so turning away and running would likely make avoiding harder.


Brian

 

[Darwin333]

The more missiles fired the harder to avoid being shot down -- no question about it. But at longer ranges after the missiles motors have burned out they scrub speed real quick as they are forced to maneuver. And the missiles aren't cheap.

The bigger problem the Russians have is that any engagement they might make against a Turkish aircraft is going to be in or near Turkish airspace and it's likely that the Turkish aircraft would be shot down over Turkish territory and that would be a very dangerous escalation.


Brian

Didn't this Russian plane technically get shot down in Syria but was engaged in Turkish airspace? I guess the real question is, does Russia have the right to enforce Syrian airspace and shoot at a Turkish plane for violating someone else's airspace? I can definitely understand the argument if one of their aircraft was in range of a Russian military asset they could claim they were defending but not clear on just violating Syrian airspace.

There are all sorts of countries currently violating Syrian airspace right now, is it pretty much (international law, rules of war, whatever) anything goes? Technically a US jet could hypothetically engage Russian assets without violating whateverthehell law?

 

[bshole]

Because Russia's actions won't actually stabilize Syria. It's way too small and way too late.

Europe is not another matter. Russia has become a rogue nation and needs to be contained. While the situation in Syria overall is probably hurt by this, Putin will need several bloody noses before he realizes his actions have consequences.

More war-mongering from our resident chicken hawk.... strap yourself up hero..... leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Turkish F-16 have RWRs, but they lack Missile Approach Warning.

The S400 radar (AESA) can lock the aircraft way within Turkish territory if they wanted to. Im sure the radar can see a high altitude F-16 at more than 200-300Km.
Also, the S400 will not fire when the enemy aircraft is so close to the boarder. And the Russian policy is to fire two missiles at a few secs apart from each other.



The missiles dont detonate on impact, they detonate before the impact in order for the warhead to explode and cover a larger area in order to hit the aircraft and do more damage. So no i dont thing the S400 missile is capable of reacquire the target.
And yes Missiles are capable of turning at 30-50 or more Gs. Some missiles use all the fuel at launch, others use it for more time. For the S400 i believe it will use fuel for some time after the launch in order to reach those long ranges that is capable off.

As I recall the turning capabilities of the S-400 missiles is closer to 12g and it's the case the long range SAM's tend not to turn as quick as shorter range AA missiles.

And, at really high speed the turn radius even at high g's is still pretty big. At speed the SR-71 could barely turn around within a state -- a big state.

Look, there's no question that the various S-400 missiles are very capable but pilots are trained on the best defeat strategies and the kill ratio is never going to be 100%.


Brian

 

[fskimospy]

More war-mongering from our resident chicken hawk.... strap yourself up hero..... leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

Chicken hawk refers to someone who has never served, dumbass.

 

[bshole]

Chicken hawk refers to someone who has never served, dumbass.

People with your mindset will be the ones who start the war to end all wars. You are the greatest menace to civilization in the world today. You are scary as all fuck. Throw out rational thought. unleash the weapons and fuck the consequences. War mongerer.

 

[shady28]

Chicken hawk refers to someone who has never served, dumbass.

"Generally, the implication is that chickenhawks lack the moral character to participate in war themselves, preferring to ask others to support, fight and perhaps die in an armed conflict."

Are you active military? Planning on signing up?

And what exactly is it people should die for? Erdogan?

You've never once explained why the US should give one flying shit about Russia bombing rebels in Syria.

 

[5150Joker]

I was getting a haircut yesterday and ironically enough the guy cutting my hair was from Syria but he was a Christian. I asked him about what was going on there and he said that the Western media didn't tell the real story and that in fact the vast majority of Syrians love Assad and that it was Western governments that were causing problems there. He said prior to this upheaval by the West + ISIS, Syria was a great place to live and that the Christians and Muslims there got along great. It's always interesting to hear a first hand account, I thought he'd be really sour about Assad but I was surprised when he said what he did. It honestly seems like our government is picking the wrong side here and should be getting rid of the rebels that are backed by Turkey and other players while working with Russia. If Erdogan wants to support those rebels + buy oil from ISIS, hold a meeting and threaten to suspend Turkey's NATO membership--I bet that will get them to straighten up real fast.