Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Border With Syria

[Brian Stirling]

I was getting a haircut yesterday and ironically enough the guy cutting my hair was from Syria but he was a Christian. I asked him about what was going on there and he said that the Western media didn't tell the real story and that in fact the vast majority of Syrians love Assad and that it was Western governments that were causing problems there. He said prior to this upheaval by the West + ISIS, Syria was a great place to live and that the Christians and Muslims there got along great. It's always interesting to hear a first hand account, I thought he'd be really sour about Assad but I was surprised when he said what he did. It honestly seems like our government is picking the wrong side here and should be getting rid of the rebels that are backed by Turkey and other players while working with Russia. If Erdogan wants to support those rebels + buy oil from ISIS, hold a meeting and threaten to suspend Turkey's NATO membership--I bet that will get them to straighten up real fast.

And another Syrian would tell a different story.

That region has pretty much never known peace and the only way to keep the individual parties from killing each other is for a strongman leader to quash all dissent with brutal force. For at least 4000 years this is all the people from this region have ever known.

When the strongman is deposed there are others looking to take his place and then use similar use of force to retain it. Get rid of Saddam and look what became of Iraq. Get rid of or weaken Assad and look what happens to Syria.

If you're going to depose of a strongman you better have a strongman to replace him and hope he's no worse than the one that was replaced.


Brian

 

[5150Joker]

And another Syrian would tell a different story.

That region has pretty much never known peace and the only way to keep the individual parties from killing each other is for a strongman leader to quash all dissent with brutal force. For at least 4000 years this is all the people from this region have ever known.

When the strongman is deposed there are others looking to take his place and then use similar use of force to retain it. Get rid of Saddam and look what became of Iraq. Get rid of or weaken Assad and look what happens to Syria.

If you're going to depose of a strongman you better have a strongman to replace him and hope he's no worse than the one that was replaced.


Brian

How do you know Syria hasn't known peace, were you raised there? Because this guy was so I'd take his word over yours.

 

[blastingcap]

The math is pretty simple: if you are not a hardcore Sunni, but still Sunni, then you probably choose Assad vs. the crazy nutcase foreigners who have invaded and destroyed your country.

If you aren't a Sunni, then your choice has been made for you, because the crazy Sunnis want to kill, oppress, or expel you and have literally stated as much.

Btw, my coworker's husband is a Syria Muslim and lived there most of his life and definitely prefers Assad over the alternative.

To be honest I was on the side of the rebels at first, in part because I hated Assad's cynical strategy of "choose terror or me," in which he and Daesh had a de facto ceasefire for years and ganged up on the rest of the rebels.

But I reversed my position after it became abundantly clear what was going on. Assad is surely guilty of torture and killing civilians, but so are the rebels, and if the rebels win then it would be a disaster (think Libya). A huge fraction of the invading force is foreign and thinks it knows better than the local Syrian dolts how to govern the territory and practice Islam (their point of view).

P.S. This Top Gear episode filmed shortly before the current civil war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT26VIe_VBQ

And another Syrian would tell a different story.

That region has pretty much never known peace and the only way to keep the individual parties from killing each other is for a strongman leader to quash all dissent with brutal force. For at least 4000 years this is all the people from this region have ever known.

When the strongman is deposed there are others looking to take his place and then use similar use of force to retain it. Get rid of Saddam and look what became of Iraq. Get rid of or weaken Assad and look what happens to Syria.

If you're going to depose of a strongman you better have a strongman to replace him and hope he's no worse than the one that was replaced.


Brian

 

[MongGrel]

Redacted, I'm not going there today.

 

[5150Joker]

The math is pretty simple: if you are not a hardcore Sunni, but still Sunni, then you probably choose Assad vs. the crazy nutcase foreigners who have invaded and destroyed your country.

If you aren't a Sunni, then your choice has been made for you, because the crazy Sunnis want to kill, oppress, or expel you and have literally stated as much.

Btw, my coworker's husband is a Syria Muslim and lived there most of his life and definitely prefers Assad over the alternative.

To be honest I was on the side of the rebels at first, but I reversed my position after it became abundantly clear what was going on. Assad is surely guilty of torture and killing civilians, but so are the rebels, and if the rebels win then it would be a disaster (think Libya). A huge fraction of the invading force is foreign and thinks it knows better than the local Syrian dolts how to govern the territory and practice Islam (their point of view).

P.S. This Top Gear episode filmed shortly before the current civil war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT26VIe_VBQ

Yeah I think US/Western influence has just brought further disaster there. I saw these pics on google images and while they're off for laying the blame entirely on "democracy" it is pretty telling:

Also Iraq and Afghanistan (though Afghanistan is Russia's doing):

 

[shady28]

I was getting a haircut yesterday and ironically enough the guy cutting my hair was from Syria but he was a Christian. I asked him about what was going on there and he said that the Western media didn't tell the real story and that in fact the vast majority of Syrians love Assad and that it was Western governments that were causing problems there. He said prior to this upheaval by the West + ISIS, Syria was a great place to live and that the Christians and Muslims there got along great. It's always interesting to hear a first hand account, I thought he'd be really sour about Assad but I was surprised when he said what he did. It honestly seems like our government is picking the wrong side here and should be getting rid of the rebels that are backed by Turkey and other players while working with Russia. If Erdogan wants to support those rebels + buy oil from ISIS, hold a meeting and threaten to suspend Turkey's NATO membership--I bet that will get them to straighten up real fast.

It's quite sad really. If someone in the gov't would own up to what has really happened, the public would feel responsible and take in the Syrian refugees no matter the risks.

Of course that can't happen. It would require them to tell the truth and reveal that the entire situation is one of our own design. Then the plan would fail, and that petrodollar... that damn petrodollar.

Fuck Nixon.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm assuming Turkey would be pissed if they received a taste of their own medicine.

Turkish fighter jets violate Greek national air space

 

[Brian Stirling]

How do you know Syria hasn't known peace, were you raised there? Because this guy was so I'd take his word over yours.

Like most places in the region there have been periods of relative peace but those periods merely punctuate history. Three of the worlds great religions are at a crossroads here and elsewhere throughout the region and it's produced great strife and violence.

When he says most Syrians loved Asaad any claims he makes kind of go out the window. Who the hell is fighting Asaad if they all loved him?

But, with Asaad weakened this has given rise to ISIS so weakening him didn't actually make things better.

The point I'm making is with Asaad gone who does the US think will take power and be benevolent?


Brian

 

[blastingcap]

I'm assuming Turkey would be pissed if they received a taste of their own medicine.

Turkish fighter jets violate Greek national air space

It's already happened, when Syria shot down a Turkish plane in 2012. Erdogan is a hypocrite.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

Turkey says its military rules of engagement have changed after Syria shot down a Turkish plane that reportedly strayed into its territory.

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. The Turkish jet was on a training flight, testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean, he said.

And yeah Turkey violates Greece's airspace all the time.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc...rspace-over-2000-times-last-year-infographic/

 

[Brian Stirling]

How do you know Syria hasn't known peace, were you raised there? Because this guy was so I'd take his word over yours.

And again, another Syrian would have a different view! One mans view does not necessarily reflect the other 99.9999% of the people.


Brian

 

[Brian Stirling]

The math is pretty simple: if you are not a hardcore Sunni, but still Sunni, then you probably choose Assad vs. the crazy nutcase foreigners who have invaded and destroyed your country.

If you aren't a Sunni, then your choice has been made for you, because the crazy Sunnis want to kill, oppress, or expel you and have literally stated as much.

Btw, my coworker's husband is a Syria Muslim and lived there most of his life and definitely prefers Assad over the alternative.

To be honest I was on the side of the rebels at first, in part because I hated Assad's cynical strategy of "choose terror or me," in which he and Daesh had a de facto ceasefire for years and ganged up on the rest of the rebels.

But I reversed my position after it became abundantly clear what was going on. Assad is surely guilty of torture and killing civilians, but so are the rebels, and if the rebels win then it would be a disaster (think Libya). A huge fraction of the invading force is foreign and thinks it knows better than the local Syrian dolts how to govern the territory and practice Islam (their point of view).

P.S. This Top Gear episode filmed shortly before the current civil war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT26VIe_VBQ

And Syria was a place where many Iraqis went to get away from war in Iraq. In addition, the foreign fighters including many of the groups that used terrorist tactics went in and out of Syria at will.

The history of western involvement in the region has almost always been bad and has played a significant role in the rise of terrorism while at the same time propping up strongmen that agreed to play ball with us.

I'm indifferent to Asaad and would not be unhappy to see him go, however the problem is what comes after him. The history of the region is that what follows is as bad or worse. In the mean time, and I do mean mean, we have a power vacuum and plenty of bad people looking to fill it.


Brian

 

[AtenRa]

It's already happened, when Syria shot down a Turkish plane in 2012. Erdogan is a hypocrite.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

Turkey says its military rules of engagement have changed after Syria shot down a Turkish plane that reportedly strayed into its territory.

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. The Turkish jet was on a training flight, testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean, he said.

And yeah Turkey violates Greece's airspace all the time.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc...rspace-over-2000-times-last-year-infographic/

Turkey won't apologize for downing Russian warplane, Erdogan says

"I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us," he said from the Turkish capital. "Those who violated our airspace are the ones who need to apologize. Our pilots and our armed forces, they simply fulfilled their duties, which consisted of responding to ... violations of the rules of engagement. I think this is the essence."
In a meeting with community leaders in Ankara, Erdogan said, "If the same violation occurs today, Turkey has to react the same way."

So next time a Greek Fighter shoot down a Turkish aircraft invading the Greek airspace, Erdogan will apologize. Nice to hear.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm assuming Turkey would be pissed if they received a taste of their own medicine.

Turkish fighter jets violate Greek national air space
__________________

I am assuming your just being gay w3ith your observations!

Please find a way to express your negative feelings that don't involve equating sexuality with observations.
admin allisolm

 

[AtenRa]

I get about 71 miles, not sure where you're getting 28 miles from.

Google maps.

 

[AtenRa]

And again, another Syrian would have a different view! One mans view does not necessarily reflect the other 99.9999% of the people.


Brian

True, but i dont believe anyone asked Syrian people before they started the fight and now the only ones TRULY suffering are the Syrian people.

 

[fskimospy]

"Generally, the implication is that chickenhawks lack the moral character to participate in war themselves, preferring to ask others to support, fight and perhaps die in an armed conflict."

Are you active military? Planning on signing up?

And what exactly is it people should die for? Erdogan?

You've never once explained why the US should give one flying shit about Russia bombing rebels in Syria.

I was active military for seven years.

If Russia was only bombing rebels in Syria that would be one thing, but it's not and you know that.

 

[fskimospy]

People with your mindset will be the ones who start the war to end all wars. You are the greatest menace to civilization in the world today. You are scary as all fuck. Throw out rational thought. unleash the weapons and fuck the consequences. War mongerer.

Greatest threat to civilization? I'm impressed!!

You're a hysterical moron. In this issue and every other you work yourself up into a frenzy of fear because you can't look at things objectively. Remember how hysterical you got over Ebola even though it made no sense? You do the same thing all the time.

 

[WelshBloke]

Remember how hysterical you got over Ebola even though it made no sense?

That was great! We never did get a picture of his "bunker".

 

[Jaskalas]

If Russia was only bombing rebels in Syria that would be one thing, but it's not and you know that.

What, your telling Assad and Putin how to fight a war, with insanely expensive smart bombs that cost 10s of millions per enemy killed? And let's not pretend we don't cause collateral damage either.

Little enrages me more than hearing Americans claim moral high ground in holding back and losing wars. War is for winning and as you recall we keep losing and letting the terrorists live. Letting anarchy and violence reign in places we try to control.

Maybe that's because they're doing it right and we're doing it wrong.

You'd think after political polarization during the Bush presidency, there wouldn't be any Neocon Democrats. Yet here they are, wanting to topple another regime because Assad is a "bad guy".

 

[shady28]

I was active military for seven years.

If Russia was only bombing rebels in Syria that would be one thing, but it's not and you know that.

What are you implying they are bombing, outside of "rebels" and ISIS?

I recently read there were in the neighborhood of 7000 distinct non gov't militant groups in Iraq and Syria. As far as I'm concerned the Russians can bomb them all.

 

[Knowing]

I'm assuming Turkey would be pissed if they received a taste of their own medicine.

Turkish fighter jets violate Greek national air space

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey's "rage" at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom on 22 June and described Syria as a "clear and present threat".

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he said. The Turkish jet was on a training flight, testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean, he said.

They operate by different rules depending on circumstance, evidently.

 

[shady28]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872



They operate by different rules depending on circumstance, evidently.

The list of hypocrites is quite long.


There's also this about the downing of a Turkish F-4 by Syria in Syrian airspace in 2012 :

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said: "It is another example of the Syrian authorities' disregard for international norms. Nato allies will remain seized of developments."

So if I put that into context, NATO should have been saying that same thing about Turkey's actions in shooting down the Russian fighter here in 2015.

But no, its all political manipulation and misdirection.


Reminds me of this, from 1984 :

Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge, which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control.

 

[fskimospy]

What, your telling Assad and Putin how to fight a war, with insanely expensive smart bombs that cost 10s of millions per enemy killed? And let's not pretend we don't cause collateral damage either.

Little enrages me more than hearing Americans claim moral high ground in holding back and losing wars. War is for winning and as you recall we keep losing and letting the terrorists live. Letting anarchy and violence reign in places we try to control.

Maybe that's because they're doing it right and we're doing it wrong.

You'd think after political polarization during the Bush presidency, there wouldn't be any Neocon Democrats. Yet here they are, wanting to topple another regime because Assad is a "bad guy".

I'm not a neocon by any stretch of the imagination. I also think it's incredibly naive to think that Assad would have the ability to control Syria even if he 'won' at this point. That's puppies and rainbows level wishful thinking.

As for who is doing it 'right', Russia is not actually attempting to win. Look at the incredibly small number of aircraft they have committed and the very limited effectiveness of them. If war is for winning, you should be absolutely enraged by Putin and yet you aren't. Why?

If I'm not mistaken you also defended his aggression in Crimea and Ukraine more broadly as well. What about this guy attracts you?

 

[AtenRa]

This is what Erdogan was trying to avoid,

France sends aircraft carrier to aid airstrikes on Isis in Syria and Iraq

German Tornado jets to help French against IS in Syria

 

[fskimospy]

What are you implying they are bombing, outside of "rebels" and ISIS?

I recently read there were in the neighborhood of 7000 distinct non gov't militant groups in Iraq and Syria. As far as I'm concerned the Russians can bomb them all.

Russia is also invading its other neighbors and repeatedly violating NATO airspace in both Turkey and the Baltic states. They are doing this deliberately in order to try and fracture NATO. Sooner or later they were bound to get pushback. Hopefully Russia will be more responsible in the future, as they didn't seem to bargain on other countries acting as recklessly as they do.