TV Tuner basics questions

[liquidsense]

I'm new to the idea of using TV tuners, and could definitely use some help.

I have an HTPC currently hooked up to my HDTV via hdmi. I saw a "hot deal" for a tv tuner and it got me thinking. I went here to learn about the basic principles: http://www.microsoft.com/windo...acenter/cablecard.mspx.

I currently have an HD package through Comcast, which gives me HD locals and a dozen or so other channels (e.g., Discovery, TLC, Golf, etc.) I do not have any premium movie channels. Based on the microsoft website, it seems that I need to get a "CableCard" to properly decode the HD channels. Does that mean that a card literally goes into the TV tuner card? Huh??

Is it possible to simply keep my Comcast settop box the way it is, but output from the settop box to the HTPC? Then use Windows Media Center to manage the material, which will then be sent out to the TV? Or do I plug the cable line directly into the TV tuner? If yes, then where exactly am I putting this CableCard? I can't imagine that it would fit on a PCI style tv tuner card.

 

[Qbah]

Any reason you can't connect the Comcast box directly to the TV?

From what I know there aren't any PC TV Tuners that accept a HD signal anyway. Was never looking for one though, so I might be wrong here. But still, why would you go to all this trouble if you can just connect the settop box directly to the HDTV?

 

[liquidsense]

Ah, good point.

I only wanted to use the TV tuner option so that I could use my HTPC as a dvr/tivo. I recently obtained Windows 7, and heard good things about the windows media center, and thought it might be a cheap and simple way to add a dvr to the mix. But, now that I've done a little more research, it looks like I would have to buy a free standing tv tuner w/ cableCARD support if I wanted to have access to all the channels.

 

[mmnno]

The equipment necessary for this essentially does not exist. ATi (supposedly) sells a CableCARD tuner, but you need to run a special version of Vista and most importantly you need to get a cablecard to put in the tuner. Your cable company may not allow customers to have cablecards by themselves (if you look through the ventilation holes in your comcast STB you will see a motorola cablecard inside it) and it's a huge pain to run a special version of Vista just to record TV.

Your best bet is probably to hook up the STB to a Blackmagic Intensity pro over component, and then through to your TV. The downside is that the Intensity pro doesn't take digital audio except through HDMI, and it won't record HDCP signals which your STB surely uses. However if you need digital audio you probably have a receiver so you can work something out, and if you don't have a receiver you probably don't need digital audio.

 

[Jovec]

Cable boxes are required because the digital channels are encrypted. The cable box does the decryption. Cable-card computers aren't really available and likely never will be - cable companies don't want to lose that control and money. Last I heard, you needed to buy a complete OEM computer to have a cable card setup. There was a review here on AT with a Dell computer and they had Anand, a Dell rep, a Cable rep, and they needed 2 days to get it working IIRC.

Now, you do get other signals in that cable line. Most, if not all, companies continue to broadcast NTSC analog signals for local channels and basic cable. Most will also broadcast local channels in HD over ClearQAM. You may also be in a area with good over-the-air (OTA) ATSC signals.

Some real world examples. I have a Hauppauge 2250 dual-tuner card in my HTPC. I plug in one cable connection, and I have all my local and basic cable channels, and with Windows 7 I have 6-7 local channels in HD sent in ClearQAM. I cannot receive any of the premium channels such as the HD package or sports package as these are all encrypted.

If you must have DVR functions with premium channels, you are probably better off renting a HD-PVR from your cable company.

 

[liquidsense]

I'm surprised there isn't some kind of pass-through type graphics card that would allow HDMI input (e.g., from a stb), which could then be processed/recorded by your computer, and then output by HDMI-out. I guess I'm thinking something like my receiver -- my inputs (e.g., PS3, xbox, stb) go directly in the receiver, and pass through to the TV; each being controlled by the receiver.

So, if such a card did exist, I envision that one would connect the set-top-box's out directly into the computer via HDMI. The computer would record the data, and then pass it through without any change to the TV by HDMI. Does something like this exist? If not, why not?

 

[Jovec]

Originally posted by: liquidsense
I'm surprised there isn't some kind of pass-through type graphics card that would allow HDMI input (e.g., from a stb), which could then be processed/recorded by your computer, and then output by HDMI-out. I guess I'm thinking something like my receiver -- my inputs (e.g., PS3, xbox, stb) go directly in the receiver, and pass through to the TV; each being controlled by the receiver.

So, if such a card did exist, I envision that one would connect the set-top-box's out directly into the computer via HDMI. The computer would record the data, and then pass it through without any change to the TV by HDMI. Does something like this exist? If not, why not?

HDCP restrictions. It will never happen.

 

[Modular]

As others have said, this is a huge PITA. There are QAM cards that can, on occasion pull in HD and non-encrypted clear channels. Most cable companies are now privy to this and encrypt their channel lineups though.

 

[Modelworks]

Blame the MPAA. They are the ones that have put a strangle hold on importing HDMI content. There are cards to do it, but expect to pay big and none of them support HDCP input.
I was going to build my own but trying to get chips from the companies requires more red tape than a government office.

 

[ViRGE]

As it stands there are two matters:

1) You previously mentioned the CableCARD, and this is correct. The "right way" to do things is to have a CableCARD-equipped PC tuner attached to your TV, where you then would be able to use Windows Media Center to pick up all the channels you subscribe to. The catch is that at this moment, only specifically authorized OEM PCs can use these tuners. That's going to be changing after the launch of Win7 so that you can plug a tuner in to any Win7 PC that meets MS's yet-to-be-defined requirements, but realistically that program won't be ready to go until early next year.

2) You also mentioned capturing the output of a STB. This can be done, it just can't be digital due to HDCP restrictions. Hauppauge makes a device that can capture the Component output of a STB and re-encode it to H.264. It's called the HD PVR. You take a quality hit (analog generation + so-so real-time H.264 encoder), have to deal with the STB's graphics, and changing channels is slow, but it works. If you absolutely wanted to get full cable TV service on your computer today, this is the way you would have to go.

 

[themisfit610]

A QAM tuner will get most of the channels - probably. It depends on whether or not your cable company encrypts non-premium channels. This varies from area to area...

At the very worst, you should be able to get your local channels - since per FCC requirements these have to be broadcast in the clear IIRC.

It's a pain though, because building a channel plan is a daunting task. You will have duplicates and lots of "dead" channels. I had an ATi HDTV Wonder for awhile, and it worked.... sort of. The software was awful, and it just plain didn't work with Vista x64 at the time.

~MiSfit

 

[mmnno]

Originally posted by: liquidsense
I'm surprised there isn't some kind of pass-through type graphics card that would allow HDMI input (e.g., from a stb), which could then be processed/recorded by your computer, and then output by HDMI-out. I guess I'm thinking something like my receiver -- my inputs (e.g., PS3, xbox, stb) go directly in the receiver, and pass through to the TV; each being controlled by the receiver.

So, if such a card did exist, I envision that one would connect the set-top-box's out directly into the computer via HDMI. The computer would record the data, and then pass it through without any change to the TV by HDMI. Does something like this exist? If not, why not?

A Blackmagic intensity pro would do this if it weren't for HDCP. HDMI certified devices (i.e. any device with an HDMI input) are not allowed to record content that is protected by HDCP. The HDMI output on your STB outputs content that is protected by HDCP. The same goes for your PS3; the best you can get is 720p over component.

You could connect your STB (and PS3 if you want to record from that) to your receiver with component, then send everything over HDMI through Intensity Pro and out to your TV. Then your receiver gets all the digital audio to where it needs to go, but you'd have to hope your receiver would play nice in this setup and not throw an HDCP fit. Though, the Intensity Pro is just for recording, it won't change channels or "manage content" in any way, so that might not be what you're trying to do.

You might also call your cable company and ask about cable cards. Since you already have an HTPC running windows media center (hopefully Vista..) you've basically got everything you need to use one of those ATi tuners if you can get that cable card.

Given themisfit's review, that might not be such a good option either. There are some other options, like stripping HDCP protection with an HDFury2, but this is nightmare territory if one piece of the puzzle doesn't work.

 

[dantonic]

heh how dishartening. I just spent all day trying to make my PVR-150 work with my comcast cable box.

I was hoping I might be able to get the S-video output from the motorola comcast box, and input it into the PVR-150 (is this card analog only? does this matter?) and therefore be able to watch/record all channels (except HD ones) in mythtv.

MythTV works with analog channels, directly connecting the cable from thewall to the hauppage card, but the quality isnt great, and I get ghosting lines thorugh the picture. I thought I could fix the problem with the solution described above, and the IR Blaster.

Is there anyway to do this? for non HD content?

Thanks

 

[dantonic]

I just spoke to comcast.
Basically they said they will give me a cablecard for free, save a $15.99 installation fee. there is no extra monthly surcharge, except for if you want multiple cards. then t is an extra $2.00/card.

All I need is a cablecard host tuner card They dont seem to be very common though.

 

[mozartrules]

Ceton is coming out with 2 and 4 tuner PCIe cards in Q1, that will work for you if you get Windows 7 and a computer that will pass the yet-to-be-determined Microsoft test (almost certain to include HDCP, but who knows). There are also rumours that Happauge will come out with a cable card tuner. You can also buy the existing ATI tuner from eBay or Dell, but that will require a firmware update before you can use in on a non-authorized PC.

All this is very new, it was made official by Microsoft a couple of weeks ago. I would suggest that you go to www.thegreenbutton.com to learn more. It is pity we have to wait a little, but the idea of using Media Center with unlimited disk space and a decent interface is a lot more attractive than the sucky DVRs that the cable guys give us. You have have to pay 300-400 for a 4-tuner card (less for a two tuner card), but that is still recovered in 2-years from savings on the rental.

Note though that you cannot get On Demand. I would suggest NetFlix (far superior choices) on the computer if that really bothers you.

http://thegreenbutton.com
http://www.cetoncorp.com/pdfs/...ChannelCableTVCard.pdf

 

[dantonic]

Too bad I run Ubuntu, and am not gonna be installing windows anytime soon.

I'm ok with waiting a few months, I just hope there will be support for linux as well, as I plan to run these in Myth Tv.

 

[mmnno]

Originally posted by: dantonic
Too bad I run Ubuntu, and am not gonna be installing windows anytime soon.

I'm ok with waiting a few months, I just hope there will be support for linux as well, as I plan to run these in Myth Tv.

Well, the entire reason this technology did not take off 7 years ago is that cable companies demanded a closed system with absolute content control and protection. Until the release of Vista, Microsoft was holding out for its own system; while Microsoft's objective was to gain control of television content for themselves, the end result had they succeeded would have been a more open and user-friendly system than we are getting now.

Basically what I am trying to say is that CableCARD systems are never coming to Linux, ever. Apple will make iPhones run on Windows Mobile before that happens. The most you can hope for is a hack that makes it work with Linux, but you can never win by hacking your cable line.

 

[dantonic]