Tweaktown : Nvidia Jetson (Tegra K1)

[SPBHM]

performance looks impressive for the GPU, but I can't help but notice the lack of good testing scenarios, just synthetic benchmarks simply because GPU intensive Android gaming is irrelevant!?

I'm more and more convinced that Windows x86 is the way to go for high performance tablets, which is a shame for Tegra K1, because GPU performance vs power usage is really looking great.

 

[ams23]

Sadly Windows x86 tablets are not exactly an attractive solution for consumers who have already invested in the Android ecosystem (ie. Google Play games/music/movies). The state of gaming on Android will get better and better as the SoC hardware and Android OS software evolves, with a nice jump coming with Android L + AEP. That said, Google may need to release their own Android micro-game console to really kick start gaming on Android.

 

[Grooveriding]

performance looks impressive for the GPU, but I can't help but notice the lack of good testing scenarios, just synthetic benchmarks simply because GPU intensive Android gaming is irrelevant!?

I'm more and more convinced that Windows x86 is the way to go for high performance tablets, which is a shame for Tegra K1, because GPU performance vs power usage is really looking great.

I think you have the right of it here, not just as far as gaming, but even potential productivity uses on tablets. Windows x86 is clearly superior with all the applications available on windows; office suite, photoshop, design apps etc. Truly robust and well supported apps that are used in many workplaces.

As far as gaming it can provide your entire Steam library on a mobile platform that will just work and work with every game. I'm still not sold on gaming on mobile, a tablet has a horrible interface for gaming and you really must have an external controller.

Then you have Intel pushing forward with mobile and constantly making huge improvements in perf/w that eclipse what anyone else can manage while making large performance leaps in their mobile offerings.

As far as cornering users who actually want to do more than web browse on a tablet, Windows x86 as a platform backed by an Intel SoC seems best positioned to manage that.

 

[ams23]

You can talk all you want about Windows x86 tablets (and the Surface Pro 3 in particular looks extremely good, although it is quite off-topic in this thread), but the reality is that Android and iOS are the dominant OS platforms for consumer tablets, and more money is spent on games in these respective app stores than any other form of entertainment. So like it or not, games on both Android and iOS will continue to evolve and improve.

 

[jdubs03]

You can talk all you want about Windows x86 tablets (and the Surface Pro 3 in particular looks extremely good, although it is quite off-topic in this thread), but the reality is that Android and iOS are the dominant OS platforms for consumer tablets, and more money is spent on games in these respective app stores than any other form of entertainment. So like it or not, games on both Android and iOS will continue to evolve and improve.

This maybe true, but they have a point: you can't do nearly as much on Android and iOS as you can on Windows, plus with Windows you have the benefit of running Bluestacks to emulate Android (probably not too good with Bay Trail, but Cherry Trail should help with that). Each platform will continue to improve, and we'll see with Windows 9 what happens, I think once they get rid of the desktop for tablets (by default?) and put Office Touch we should see some improvement in sales. I think the non-Office Touch part was the main source of confusion for consumers, had they had that in the beginning, W8 might not have been seen as a failure.

 

[Sweepr]

You can talk all you want about Windows x86 tablets (and the Surface Pro 3 in particular looks extremely good, although it is quite off-topic in this thread), but the reality is that Android and iOS are the dominant OS platforms for consumer tablets, and more money is spent on games in these respective app stores than any other form of entertainment. So like it or not, games on both Android and iOS will continue to evolve and improve.

But you don't need Tegra K1 GPU power to run most Android games very well. Hardware comes first, I agree, but lots of Windows titles would put that chip to good use right now. It would be great if we had a x86 version, I love my iOS / Android devices but nothing would ever beat being able to play most of my Steam library on the go.

 

[ams23]

This maybe true, but they have a point: you can't do nearly as much on Android and iOS as you can on Windows, plus with Windows you have the benefit of running Bluestacks to emulate Android (probably not too good with Bay Trail, but Cherry Trail should help with that). Each platform will continue to improve, and we'll see with Windows 9 what happens, I think once they get rid of the desktop for tablets (by default?) and put Office Touch we should see some improvement in sales. I think the non-Office Touch part was the main source of confusion for consumers, had they had that in the beginning, W8 might not have been seen as a failure.

Most consumers use tablets in a casual fashion, and Android and iOS tablets are inexpensive enough where they don't have to be the one computing device to do everything in one's life If one really wants a tablet that is productive enough to replace one's laptop, then they should go with something like Surface Pro 3.

 

[ams23]

But you don't need Tegra K1 GPU power to run most Android games very well. Hardware comes first, I agree, but lots of Windows titles would put that chip to good use right now. It would be great if we had a x86 version, I love my iOS / Android devices but nothing would ever beat being able to play most of my Steam library on the go.

It would be great to see a thin fanless tablet with an Intel CPU + NVIDIA GPU, but realistically probably will not happen anytime soon if at all.

It is true that Tegra K1 is not needed to run most Android games well, but Android device makers have their hands full trying to compete with the pace set by Apple with their SoC hardware, and TK1 is one of the few SoC's on the market that give them a fighting chance of doing so (along with upcoming SoC's by Qualcomm, Intel, Samsung, etc.).

 

[tviceman]

But you don't need Tegra K1 GPU power to run most Android games very well. Hardware comes first, I agree, but lots of Windows titles would put that chip to good use right now. It would be great if we had a x86 version, I love my iOS / Android devices but nothing would ever beat being able to play most of my Steam library on the go.

3DFX created Voodoo before there was a market for 3D accelerated games. Look what happened.

 

[TrulyUncouth]

Sadly Windows x86 tablets are not exactly an attractive solution for consumers who have already invested in the Android ecosystem (ie. Google Play games/music/movies). The state of gaming on Android will get better and better as the SoC hardware and Android OS software evolves, with a nice jump coming with Android L + AEP. That said, Google may need to release their own Android micro-game console to really kick start gaming on Android.

Spoken as someone who has been on android since 2010 and spent a fair amount of money on Android games and music I must say just seeing these few videos of baytrail tablets running games from as recent as 3-4 years ago has made me super excited. I will definitely be keeping android for my phone, but I am more convinced with every youtube video I watch that I'll probably be buying a windows tablet.

Of course I am speaking as someone with a huge steam library and who doesn't mind tweaking games a bit to get them working. They may keep selling 10x as much on Android/iOS but I think I'll be infinitely happier gaming in the windows camp until android quality catches up.

but the reality is that Android and iOS are the dominant OS platforms for consumer tablets, and more money is spent on games in these respective app stores than any other form of entertainment. So like it or not, games on both Android and iOS will continue to evolve and improve.

I think its more relevant to the current conversation to say that PC titles on an X86 chip will evolve and improve faster. Imagine in 2 more generations when GTA5 is playable, or Watchdogs, or titanfall, etc. These PC tablets get a ton of gaming benefit from simply being X86 and sharing compatibility with a platform that has a long history of AAA titles and much higher expectations than mobile platforms.

With the performance they can bring I do wish NV could somehow get involved with x86 somehow, but unless Intel choose to include NV IP in their chips it looks pretty damn unlikely.

Sorry to ramble a bit, but I think unless NV can help to make Android into a full-on alternative to PC for gaming I think their goose is cooked as far as competing in the enthusiast gamer community.

 

[monstercameron]

With the performance they can bring I do wish NV could somehow get involved with x86 somehow, but unless Intel choose to include NV IP in their chips it looks pretty damn unlikely.

Nvidia should just order a semi-custom APU [feasibility/probability/possibility aside], and get into the x86 market.

Legacy is killing nvidia on 2 fronts: large software platform slowed tegra adoption[windows rt anyone] and the slow but inevitable death of entry level and mainstream dGPUs.

 

[ams23]

Spoken as someone who has been on android since 2010 and spent a fair amount of money on Android games and music I must say just seeing these few videos of baytrail tablets running games from as recent as 3-4 years ago has made me super excited. I will definitely be keeping android for my phone, but I am more convinced with every youtube video I watch that I'll probably be buying a windows tablet.

If you want a Windows x86 tablet, then what are you doing in this thread in the first place? Look, given the performance, it hardly makes sense to tout Bay Trail Atom graphics. Cherry Trail graphics will obviously be much improved, but we aren't quite there yet.

Sorry to ramble a bit, but I think unless NV can help to make Android into a full-on alternative to PC for gaming I think their goose is cooked as far as competing in the enthusiast gamer community.

Well now you have lost your mind. NVIDIA GPU's make up close to 2/3 of the discrete GPU market. In other words, the majority of the "enthusiast" gamer community uses NVIDIA GPU's. And guess what: the enthusiast gamer community will not rely on thin fanless tablets to satisfy all their gaming needs. Regardless, Android is here to stay, so to ignore it in the commercial space would be very shortsighted. NVIDIA, Qualcomm, Samsung, Google, and even Intel are all heavily investing in Android (among many others).

 

[TrulyUncouth]

If you want a Windows x86 tablet, then what are you doing in this thread in the first place? Look, given the performance, it hardly makes sense to tout Bay Trail Atom graphics. Cherry Trail graphics will obviously be much improved, but we aren't quite there yet.

I spoke about two articles that both made the case for older games on baytrail tablets and explained that they have moved me away from making my next tablet android. I am speaking about the efficacy of android tablets against the huge catalogue of high quality games on x86 tablets- I believe it is very relevant to this thread.

And benchmark performance numbers don't mean much when the lowly 1.86ghz CPU and lower-than-top-clocked GPU in the Asus T100 handily beats the Tegra 4 at HL2/Portal. That matchup shows that numbers on benchmarks don't always translate to real-word performance.

Well now you have lost your mind. NVIDIA GPU's make up close to 2/3 of the discrete GPU market. In other words, the majority of the "enthusiast" gamer community uses NVIDIA GPU's. And guess what: the enthusiast gamer community will not rely on thin fanless tablets to satisfy all their gaming needs. Regardless, Android is here to stay, so to ignore it in the commercial space would be very shortsighted.

I am not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or not but I thought it was obvious I meant as far as people like me doing TABLET shopping- noone would say NV is done as far as enthusiast GPU's and clearly I would never say that. I have purchased probably 10 NV GPU's in my life and bought my first AMD/ATI GPU in this most recent gen.

I don't think any enthusiasts will move to tablet only for gaming, my point is if I am going to spend 200-300 on a tablet I am really coming around to thinking I shouldn't spend it on something that can't play all the kickass games I already bought on PC.

And again I am not saying android should be ignored, I would happily buy an android tablet if it got even close to the number of games possible on an x86 tablet. I am just saying that in researching and getting excited for the TK1 I ran across a ton of articles and videos showing what is possible in x86 tablets even with mid-range Baytrail tablets and since I contributed heavily to this thread and feel this is relevant to it I wanted to share my new-found perspective.

Edit: Also, I am discussing this because I hate that Intel shut NV down on being able to get into the x86 market through translation. Imagine this chip competing directly against baytrail... in some alternate universe somewhere they are enjoying some real competition in this space.

 

[ams23]

I spoke about two articles that both made the case for older games on baytrail tablets and explained that they have moved me away from making my next tablet android. I am speaking about the efficacy of android tablets against the huge catalogue of high quality games on x86 tablets- I believe it is very relevant to this thread.

Well no, that has no relevance in this thread, because this thread is about TK1, which will only be used in Android tablets! If you think that current gen Bay Trail graphics will provide a better overall gaming experience than mobile Kepler graphics in a tablet (even though the mobile Kepler graphics are at least 2-3x faster in virtually every graphics benchmark tested so far, all while having a more forward looking feature set too), simply due to the x86 and OS, then buy the Windows Atom tablet. I, on the other hand, will pick up a TK1-powered tablet because the graphics performance and feature set is unparalleled in the ultra mobile space at this time, and I have already invested in the Android and Google Play ecosystem.

And benchmark performance numbers don't mean much when the lowly 1.86ghz CPU and lower-than-top-clocked GPU in the Asus T100 handily beats the Tegra 4 at HL2/Portal.

So out of thousands of games on Android, you cherry picked two old PC games that were quickly ported to Android where CPU utilization spikes up to near 100%, and compared that to Windows? LOL, way to go.

I am not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or not but I thought it was obvious I meant as far as people like me doing TABLET shopping- noone would say NV is done as far as enthusiast GPU's and clearly I would never say that.

People like you who desire Windows x86 tablets rather than Android or iOS tablets are the minority when it comes to the consumer tablet space. And other than the Surface tablet, NVIDIA is not a player in Windows tablets at all today. So how could they have their "goose cooked" in Windows tablets when they are really not even a player in that space today? That was a nonsensical comment.

 

[TrulyUncouth]

Well no, that has no relevance in this thread, because this thread is about TK1, which will only be used in Android tablets! If you think that current gen Bay Trail graphics will provide a better overall gaming experience than mobile Kepler graphics in a tablet, simply due to the x86 and OS, then buy the Windows tablet. I, on the other hand, will pick up a TK1-powered tablet because the graphics performance and feature set is unparalleled in the ultra mobile space at this time.

So you are being intentionally obtuse... Ok. I should probably stop but what the hell...

I do believe it is relevant in this thread and have been discussing it with multiple people here without anyone saying off-topic but you... so perhaps you aren't a perfect barometer for what is relevant. If every time people discussed opposite view points on this forum we said "Well if you think that, then buy what you want and let's not talk" then there wouldn't be too many threads here or a point to being on a forum.

An aside, honest question- you would have the best graphics performance, but what feature set are you referring to? And followup, what would you use that top-end graphics performance to play?

So out of thousands of games on Android, you cherry picked two old games that were quickly ported to Android where CPU utilization spikes up to near 100%? LOL, way to go.

I picked the two games referenced in this thread and as far as I know the only two analyzed that are available for x86 windows and android. If you have other examples I would happily read up on it- I love this sort of stuff.

People like you who desire Windows x86 tablets rather than Android or iOS tablets are the minority when it comes to the consumer tablet space. And other than the Surface tablet, NVIDIA is not a player in Windows tablets at all today. So how could they have their "goose cooked" in Windows tablets when they are really not even a player in that space today? That was a nonsensical comment.

I never claimed to be a majority at all, even made a point to say I would classify myself as a gaming enthusiast... and that is the only space I am talking about. However, since NV has made it clear they aren't going for the majority, built the shield handheld, and now a shield tablet I feel my opinion is extremely relevant to the niche market of mobile gaming they are shooing for. You don't have to respond defensively because I am sharing the reasons I am leaning towards x86 tablet gaming now- There is obviously a great GPU in this TK1 SOC, I am simply coming to realize there isn't much I could use it for.

I guess the heavily simplified question is, would you give up 50% of the performance in your PC for twice the number of good games?

Edit: In response to your "So how could they have their "goose cooked" in Windows tablets" I never once said in windows tablets- please address what I actually wrote if you wish to somehow refute me. My point was simply in the gamer tablet space I could see easily a huge move to x86/windows.

 

[ams23]

So you are being intentionally obtuse.

LOL, you are the one who is waxing on and on about Windows tablets in a thread about an SoC that will only be used in Android tablets, so who is really the one being obtuse here?

An aside, honest question- you would have the best graphics performance, but what feature set are you referring to? And followup, what would you use that top-end graphics performance to play?

Think logically and do some research about where Android is heading, and you will start to understand why SoC's such as Tegra K1 are very important and desireable in this space.

 

[TrulyUncouth]

LOL, you are the one who is waxing on and on about Windows tablets in a thread about an SoC that will only be used in Android tablets, so who is really the one being obtuse here?

I'll stop responding to you after this post since our conversation is no longer adding anything. I truly do apologize for clearly offending your love for a mobile SOC- that was truly not my intention.

Think logically and do some research about where Android is heading, and you will start to understand why SoC's such as Tegra K1 are very important and desireable in this space.

I am excited very much about the future of Android, but its a far-off future for top-level games. TK1 will be very old news by the time there are even 10 AAA Console/PC level games available for Android. I have come, clearly, to the conclusion that a better buy for myself is a windows tablet. If you had actually read the things I said earlier I kept making the point that NV is fighting a losing battle UNLESS they get major game devs to bring titles to Android or atleast Tegra zone. If you don't see how comparing and contrasting mobile gaming between OS'es in a thread about an SOC meant solely as a gaming SOC for a single OS is relevant then I don't know what else to say to you.

Just to give you an idea of what convinced me- here are a few youtube videos of games running on Baytrail not even using the highest SKU. If you claim to be a gaming enthusiast and watching those videos doesn't make you consider bypassing Android for this generation- then I would be forced to accuse you of lying.

Skyrim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J3otRvhbX8
Mass Effect 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI28Q-N5ZE
Fallout 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FngFMaZYAI
Grid 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOCfSTSSldY
TF2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcLbqESxoE
Civ 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bi_0TRTe1k
CS:GO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4odbt3DYYc0

 

[ams23]

Right. Well, to get back to topic, here are some gaming video clips of TK1-powered devices:

Dead Trigger 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQZBb-b9FA&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

Real Racing 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3ZKhJZbO5o&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

Modern Combat 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHFA6bhnEds&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

FIFA 14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yz5fxrLhdU&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

Asphault 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgJhIkSXA5A&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

Dungeon Hunter 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjd6Qh32AOc&list=UUKjeFmN8nDvv9av_W6Hpxrw

Trine 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx3iaJpHIWQ

Without question, as Android/iOS SoC hardware and Android/iOS OS software become more and more robust, game developers will start to increasingly target these platforms due to the massive install base and due to the need to monetize over an increasingly large audience as game development costs rise year after year.

 

[Hans de Vries]

If you want to be impressed:

Unreal engine 4 on a Tegra K1 + Android L + Android Extension Pack (AEP)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tAZtbDZ8E
http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/06/25/google-io-tegra-aep-gaming/

 

[monstercameron]

Without question, as Android/iOS SoC hardware and Android/iOS OS software become more and more robust, game developers will start to increasingly target these platforms due to the massive install base and due to the need to monetize over an increasingly large audience as game development costs rise year after year.

Interface might be an insurmountable issue to resolve for many traditional devs.

 

[TrulyUncouth]

Interface might be an insurmountable issue to resolve for many traditional devs.

I agree. Its a big problem to get over. Of course not many devs will go for a game that pretty much requires a gamepad- and the chances of a game made with even the slightest after thought to a mouse and keyboard is very small.

Throw on top of all that most people's unwillingness to spend more than $1-5 on a game and that the huge income into mobile apps is mostly through in app purchases on simple repetitive games. Its easy to see why the majority of big devs aren't interested in selling a $20-60 game on mobile. That is why I suggested NV's best move might be a console and tablet that they work with a number of AAA devs to bring full-price games to.

I am thinking like a much classier Ouya. With NV footing some of the bill to convert this could give devs an easy extra cash stream and NV the software they need to actually make people want a very strong mobile GPU. Until they do that, in my opinion, they will remain woefully inadequate compared to titles available on x86 tablets.

Here are some hard numbers. All that money that ams23 is so sure will bring AAA titles to mobile is mostly being spent on Candy Crush and Clash of Clans...

These are both images for iOS but the Android numbers are even heavier in favor of Free/in app purchases. 98% of all apps released on Google play last year were free. Look at the table of highest grossing apps on iOS, the only one not free is Minecraft.

Anyone care to guess how much GPU you need to run any of the top ten games? Exactly.

Edit: Here is Google play's highest grossing link. Out of the Top 75 grossing games, only one is paid...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing?hl=en

 

[xpea]

Edit: Here is Google play's highest grossing link. Out of the Top 75 grossing games, only one is paid...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing?hl=en

be careful this is a very misleading data, these "free" games are not free... They are trial versions with in app purchase to really enjoy. That's why European commission asked Google and Apple to change the naming of these so called "free" games. In September, they won't be called Free anymore...

 

[ancientarcher]

Anyone care to guess how much GPU you need to run any of the top ten games? Exactly.

Edit: Here is Google play's highest grossing link. Out of the Top 75 grossing games, only one is paid...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing?hl=en

You should skate to where the puck is heading towards!

The vast majority of android devices run on very underpowered GPUs at the moment. And hence, you have most developers targeting the lowest common denominator in graphics horsepower. Thereby you have a preponderance of games like candy crush, flappy bird, not that anything is wrong with them.

But, once good GPUs are widely available, and that is only a matter of time, you will see better games which utilise the GPU fully.

The improvement in graphics for android is truly amazing. TK1 has 18x the graphics umph of the original Nexus 7 (or the original ipad mini). If that is not impressive, I don't know what is.. And if you think that sort of improvement won't open new markets, well, I have nothing to say...

 

[Raghu]

Some Shield Tablet demos from newegg

http://video.newegg.com/v/1642488253/nvidia-shield-directstylus-2-neweggcom-nep-pcs-vendor/

http://video.newegg.com/v/1006731770/nvidia-shield-tablet-vendor-nep-2557-neweggcom-android/

 

[NTMBK]

You're all ignoring the most important factor- Android TV. Google are finally backing the "Android games console" concept, so we may finally see some worthwhile games.