Twitter mob goes after girl for cultural appropriation over prom dress

[woolfe9998]

The problem with this idea is it proposes that people constantly worry about who they might be offending. Rather than allow people to have legitimate interactions with others, and really get to know people, they are instead forced to just tiptoe around, engaging in shallow, meaningless conversations for fear that a lack of expertise in the detailed history of every possible ethnic and racial group could lead to offending someone. If we want people of diverse backgrounds to interact authentically and build real friendships and relationships, we can't propose people do a full analysis of every item of their wardrobe to examine the offense it might cause.

You're right. We can't cater to our every action to the most sensitive possible observer. OTOH, if we have reason to believe that a significant number of people within a certain group may be offended by something, then that is something to consider. My problem with this recent iteration of "cultural appropriation" - as opposed to the legitimate concerns about "black face" and other things clearly intended to degrade a culture - is that the definition has expanded to any white person who adopts anything connected to a non-white culture, whether it's an article of clothing, a knickknack on a dashboard, or a hair style.

This tortured expansion of the definition of cultural appropriation appears to be emanating from academia and collegiate culture. As such, it sounds an awful lot like white people are now telling people of other color that they should be offended by this, and in doing so, are essentially manufacturing offense. Consider that 20 years ago, no one was raising these objections. They complained about legitimate stuff like black face, but no one ever complained about a girl wearing an Asian patterned prom dress. That's trendy, manufactured offense.

I asked the question earlier. I want evidence that actual Asian people are offended by this sort of thing. Until then, there is no basis whatsoever for taking exception to this girl's choice of a prom dress. I'd frankly be impressed at evidence of any actual Asians being offended beyond a tiny handful who took the same sociology classes as the spoiled white kids who are the ones actually making a stink about this. I'm open to changing my mind, but I'm doubtful that any such evidence exists.

 

[Zorba]

Drop the hyperbole, please. That's not what I said and you damn well know it.

The point is to think and not just treat another culture as a clothing rack. If it's a traditional piece of clothing for a given culture, question whether or not it's a wise idea to wear it. Some things from other cultures have become perfectly acceptable to wear; others are clearly not; still others are somewhere in between and depend on the context.

I really don't see where the hyperbole is in that post. You clearly think that there is clothing that specifically white people shouldn't wear. But you have no problem when other cultures wear traditional western clothing.

I can see your point on some specific cases, such as Native American Regalia, but I really don't see how qipao is even in the same ball park as that. It seems that qipao would be a much closer comparison to a suit or high heels.

 

[realibrad]

You're right. We can't cater to our every action to the most sensitive possible observer. OTOH, if we have reason to believe that a significant number of people within a certain group may be offended by something, then that is something to consider. My problem with this recent iteration of "cultural appropriation" - as opposed to the legitimate concerns about "black face" and other things clearly intended to degrade a culture - is that the definition has expanded to any white person who adopts anything connected to a non-white culture, whether it's an article of clothing, a knickknack on a dashboard, or a hair style.

This tortured expansion of the definition of cultural appropriation appears to be emanating from academia and collegiate culture. As such, it sounds an awful lot like white people are now telling people of other color that they should be offended by this, and in doing so, are essentially manufacturing offense. Consider that 20 years ago, no one was raising these objections. They complained about legitimate stuff like black face, but no one ever complained about a girl wearing an Asian patterned prom dress. That's trendy, manufactured offense.

I asked the question earlier. I want evidence that actual Asian people are offended by this sort of thing. Until then, there is no basis whatsoever for taking exception to this girl's choice of a prom dress. I'd frankly be impressed at evidence of any actual Asians being offended beyond a tiny handful who took the same sociology classes as the spoiled white kids who are the ones actually making a stink about this. I'm open to changing my mind, but I'm doubtful that any such evidence exists.

I actually gave examples. You can find it in this post. That said, Asian people being offended should not matter as anyone can be offended by anything. What needs to be shown is why its inherently offensive beyond people being offended.

 

[Commodus]

And when the Chinese use American Culture or Fashion? I understand the issue with using religious symbols, but other that it sounds like you are completely anti-tourism and diversity.

But even with religious places, should a Hindi not be allowed to enjoy the art of the Vatican?

Blue jeans and baseball don't carry a truly deep cultural significance, just as there are many pieces of Chinese clothing and culture that don't carry any particularly profound meaning. The point is to be considerate, to know that some things carry more connotations than others.

I'm all in favor of tourism and diversity. What I'm not in favor of is treating an entire culture like a trip to the mall. A Hindu person is certainly entitled to enjoy Vatican art; it would be problematic if the only thing they took from a trip to Vatican City was "they make pretty pictures." That doesn't mean they have to convert to Catholicism (I should clarify that I don't think Eat Pray Love's writer absolutely had to convert to Hinduism), but at least acknowledge the context, that there's a lot more to a foreign culture than how it can serve you.

 

[quikah]

I asked the question earlier. I want evidence that actual Asian people are offended by this sort of thing. Until then, there is no basis whatsoever for taking exception to this girl's choice of a prom dress. I'd frankly be impressed at evidence of any actual Asians being offended beyond a tiny handful who took the same sociology classes as the spoiled white kids who are the ones actually making a stink about this. I'm open to changing my mind, but I'm doubtful that any such evidence exists.

Here is one take on this from China:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash

 

[pmv]

So why should a White person have to consider more than the look, but, not a Chinese person? When I go to Macy's to get a shirt, I get what I like the most. I would bet that people in China do the same. So to me you have still not explained how "shopping" is offensive.

Comparing with 'China' I think misses the point. I strongly suspect Chinese people in China really don't care very much about this stuff, the objectors are primarily asian-Americans. This is mostly a domestic issue, and its driven, I suspect, by the historical (and in some cases recent personal) experiences of East Asians in the US. Actual Chinese people in China (a) have far too many other things to worry about, and (b) probably have a greater sense of security and power, because they aren't a minority group.

So two things. One is that I see a person looking to other cultures to find self-improvement seems like a good thing, yet you are making it seem bad somehow.

Second, why should there be a reason beyond her liking the look? I asked this above, but, why should she have to consider anything further about the dress because she is White?

But what do you mean by 'self-improvement'? A lot of this stuff doesn't seem to improve anyone very much (e.g. 'indian' head-dresses worn as fancy dress).

I think none of this would be a problem if not for social media (or mass media generally). Without that, it would be self-policing. Either someone would wear such an item among their own, and nobody from the potentially-offended group would be there to see it, so no harm done (if a tree is racist in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a racist noise?). Or, if they socialised on an equal basis with members of the relevant group, they'd hopefully have learned what the item meant to that group, and would either not wear it or would do so in a spirit that members of the group would be OK with.

She probably should have thought about it a bit more if she was going to publicly post pictures of her wearing it. But I don't think it's the most heinous sin in the world, she's kind-of a victim of problems created by modern technology. It creates clashes between groups in different cultural worlds who once would not have actually encountered each other.

 

[quikah]

oops, duplicate

 

[pmv]

Here is one take on this from China:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash

I feel that confirms my first point in my previous post!

(There's a shopping mall in Beijing called something like 'Oriental Plaza', which I imagine would not go down well in the US - I don't think actual Chinese people have the same concerns as Chinese-Americans, their historical experiences and circumstances are different.)

 

[woolfe9998]

I actually gave examples. You can find it in this post. That said, Asian people being offended should not matter as anyone can be offended by anything. What needs to be shown is why its inherently offensive beyond people being offended.

Giving a couple of examples doesn't impress me. I do agree that it needs to be shown why people are being offended. Which is why I raise the concern that the few who may be offended are being told to be offended by white liberals. Rather than the offense being organic to the individual, this feels more like politics and ideology, something that starts with abstract ideas and spreads like a meme. I honestly can't remember a single example of anyone at all complaining about this sort of thing until the last 5 or so years. If this was actual, visceral offense, they would have been offended 10 years ago just as much as today. That's why it feels like manufactured outrage. And if that hypothesis is correct, it tells you everything you need to know about why.

 

[woolfe9998]

Here is one take on this from China:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash

That's what I would expect to be the typical reaction from the Asian man or woman on the street, to consider it a form of flattery. And I suspect that is all it was until very recently.

 

[realibrad]

Comparing with 'China' I think misses the point. I strongly suspect Chinese people in China really don't care very much about this stuff, the objectors are primarily asian-Americans. This is mostly a domestic issue, and its driven, I suspect, by the historical (and in some cases recent personal) experiences of East Asians in the US. Actual Chinese people in China (a) have far too many other things to worry about, and (b) probably have a greater sense of security and power, because they aren't a minority group.

Thus you have exemplified the thing that is great about culture. Asian-American culture while linked is not the same as Chinese culture. So, who owns the right to be offended? Unless one must give up the culture they are from when they move, then, I think the very idea of cultural ownership is flawed. Nobody owns the rights and thus nobody owns the right to be offended.

But what do you mean by 'self-improvement'? A lot of this stuff doesn't seem to improve anyone very much (e.g. 'indian' head-dresses worn as fancy dress).

What ever definition he was using. The point was that someone finding "self-improvement" should be a good thing, and yet its twisted into a bad thing.

I think none of this would be a problem if not for social media (or mass media generally). Without that, it would be self-policing. Either someone would wear such an item among their own, and nobody from the potentially-offended group would be there to see it, so no harm done (if a tree is racist in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a racist noise?). Or, if they socialized on an equal basis with members of the relevant group, they'd hopefully have learned what the item meant to that group, and would either not wear it or would do so in a spirit that members of the group would be OK with.

No doubt social media allows people that would have otherwise gone unheard to have a voice. That voice may or may not be reasonable, but it can now be heard.

There is a 2nd part to this section that is of interest to me. Why should someone need to understand the importance for it not to be offensive?

She probably should have thought about it a bit more if she was going to publicly post pictures of her wearing it. But I don't think it's the most heinous sin in the world, she's kind-of a victim of problems created by modern technology. It creates clashes between groups in different cultural worlds who once would not have actually encountered each other.

Yes and no. I think people should consider that anything they do might be considered offensive and thus if you engage in social media, you should be ready for how to deal with hateful dumb people. What I disagree with is that she should have to think about the cultural implications.

 

[realibrad]

Giving a couple of examples doesn't impress me. I do agree that it needs to be shown why people are being offended. Which is why I raise the concern that the few who may be offended are being told to be offended by white liberals. Rather than the offense being organic to the individual, this feels more like politics and ideology, something that starts with abstract ideas and spreads like a meme. I honestly can't remember a single example of anyone at all complaining about this sort of thing until the last 5 or so years. If this was actual, visceral offense, they would have been offended 10 years ago just as much as today. That's why it feels like manufactured outrage. And if that hypothesis is correct, it tells you everything you need to know about why.

Native American clothing is an example older than 5 years. This type of thing is not new, just its popularity in terms of the West.

 

[woolfe9998]

Native American clothing is an example older than 5 years. This type of thing is not new, just its popularity in terms of the West.

The concept of cultural appropriate is not new (see black face etc.), but the broad way it's being applied seems new to me. If this sort of thing was going on before, it was either too obscure and infrequent for me to notice or I was out to lunch that day. Perhaps it's getting more play these days because of social media. Which only underscores why I think this outrage is spreading like a meme rather than arising viscerally and spontaneously

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

No, it has a lot to do with political leanings. Notice how a conservative started the thread, and the conservatives are the ones trying hardest to defend it? They're the same ones who'll whine about "political correctness" (read: not being an asshole) in cases where serious outrage is justified.

The reason this became a national story is not because people in general consider this girl as being insensitive or offensive for choosing to wear that particular dress to her prom...it's a national story because people are amazed that there are actually people in this world who are so incredibly self-righteous that they genuinely believe themselves to be authoritative arbiters of morality regarding such matters of minutia. This is a national story because people are flabbergasted at those who would impose such a perverted moral paradigm on others...especially a teenage girl who innocently picked out a beautiful dress to wear to her high school prom and proudly posted a picture. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail...even puppy dogs.

In my opinion, if anyone actually thinks they're making the world a better place by publicly denigrating this girl for her perceived cultural insensitivity...they need to take a good hard look in the mirror...long enough to see what an intolerant, insensitive, arrogant, self-righteous monster they've become. This isn't about politics...it's about human perversity.

 

[Bitek]

And when the Chinese use American Culture or Fashion? I understand the issue with using religious symbols, but other that it sounds like you are completely anti-tourism and diversity.

But even with religious places, should a Hindi not be allowed to enjoy the art of the Vatican?

We all need to stay in our racial lanes.

Off to cancel my Funamation subscription. It's just Gilmore girls from here on out.

 

[realibrad]

The concept of cultural appropriate is not new (see black face etc.), but the broad way it's being applied seems new to me. If this sort of thing was going on before, it was either too obscure and infrequent for me to notice or I was out to lunch that day. Perhaps it's getting more play these days because of social media. Which only underscores why I think this outrage is spreading like a meme rather than arising viscerally and spontaneously

This type of spreading is how all cultural things spread.

Blackface in my opinion is offensive when its done to stereotype Black people. I personally do not find it offensive if someone wanted to dress up as a Black person. I'm a Neil Degrasse Tyson fan, and if I were to dress up as him for Halloween I would not see that as offensive. But, Blackface is different than clothing to me.

 

[sdifox]

I feel that confirms my first point in my previous post!

(There's a shopping mall in Beijing called something like 'Oriental Plaza', which I imagine would not go down well in the US - I don't think actual Chinese people have the same concerns as Chinese-Americans, their historical experiences and circumstances are different.)

Oriental Plaza or Mall can be found anywhere there is enough Chinese people

But it really refers to the direction, not people from the Orient.

 

[mect]

Eh, in this case some thought is warranted. I don't think a girl wearing a qipao to a prom solely because she thought it looked nice is encouraging interaction between cultures.

But publicly shaming her over it certainly discourages interaction between cultures.
Edit for clarity.

 

[Commodus]

This type of spreading is how all cultural things spread.

Blackface in my opinion is offensive when its done to stereotype Black people. I personally do not find it offensive if someone wanted to dress up as a Black person. I'm a Neil Degrasse Tyson fan, and if I were to dress up as him for Halloween I would not see that as offensive. But, Blackface is different than clothing to me.

Blackface is offensive full stop, because it exists solely to stereotype black people. That's where the name comes from. And the black person you dress up to be depends on who it is. Neil Degrasse Tyson? Sure, so long as you aren't putting on blackface; you'll just look like a nerdy white guy with a mustache. Shaka Zulu or Queen Latifah? Definitely not.

 

[Commodus]

But publicly shaming her over it certainly is discouraging them.

I certainly wouldn't encourage people to publicly shame her... it's more just shaking my head than anything.

 

[NesuD]

LOL Cultural appropriation LOL the whole concept or at least the perception is just laughable. LOL

 

[realibrad]

Blackface is offensive full stop, because it exists solely to stereotype black people. That's where the name comes from. And the black person you dress up to be depends on who it is. Neil Degrasse Tyson? Sure, so long as you aren't putting on blackface; you'll just look like a nerdy white guy with a mustache. Shaka Zulu or Queen Latifah? Definitely not.

Not full stop. Why is trying to look like Neil okay, but, wearing the Chinese dress not okay? If you were a Black person that was a fan of Neil, but they were only a quarter black and thus their skin was much lighter, would it be okay to darken your face? What if the goal is to simply look more like the person, is that too somehow stereotyping?

 

[realibrad]

I certainly wouldn't encourage people to publicly shame her... it's more just shaking my head than anything.

All you are saying is that you personally would not shame her, not that you don't think its shameful. We are trying to figure out why you think its shameful.

 

[sdifox]

LOL Cultural appropriation LOL the whole concept or at least the perception is just laughable. LOL

It is a real problem, this just isn't it.

Example

https://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/stories/...ical-use-of-indigenous-cultural-heritage.html

 

[realibrad]

It is a real problem, this just isn't it.

Example

https://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/stories/...ical-use-of-indigenous-cultural-heritage.html

That is people making knockoffs. Further, it looks like the style was taught to them by westerners. So their culture, like almost all cultures, is built upon other cultures. No issue found so long as people are not mislead into think it was natives that made the clothing.