Two legal CCW Holders Dead - Road Rage

[irishScott]

Money is what makes the NRA powerful. And their tactics serve the industry moreso than gun owners.

Here's why I say that. Responsible, mentally stable gun owners or ccw holders have nothing to fear from a better training program and better background checks. In fact they would be well served by those things since it would change the perception they don't care about issues like a mentally unstable person buying a gun then shooting up their workplace the next day.

But the industry makes more money selling guns to anyone who wants one, which is the NRA's real purpose these days.

Yes, money from over 4 million members in addition to industry. Considering it costs a minimum of $35 a year to be an NRA member, and many contribute a lot more, that's hundreds of millions just from private individuals. And their membership saw a nice spike this year BTW.

As for we have nothing to fear? Lol. Look at the likes of Governor Cuomo, who said "confiscation could be an option". Look at the fact that gun control advocates don't even attempt to license assault weapons, they go straight for the ban.

We have nothing to fear from the concepts of licensing and background checks, we have a TON to fear from those implementing said concepts. If you want me to be licensed, then fine. After going through dozens of hours of training, mental health checks and background checks, if approved I should be able to buy any gun I want in any configuration I want and in any quantity I want subject to renewal of the license every 5-10 years. That includes things like a fully automatic Tommy Gun or a Browning M2 Heavy Machine Gun. Oh and I want the second Amendment reworded to make any use of the licensing database outside of licensing/checking the status of licenses unconstitutional.

Find me a gun control advocate that supports those measures, find enough of them, and I'll submit to strenuous licensing and background/mental health checks.


In the meantime, gun control advocates are less concerned with preventing death and more concerned with some quixotic, immoral and unconstitutional quest to eliminate guns from society. So long as that remains the case, we gun owners have plenty to fear and plenty to fight. Gun control advocates can blame the NRA all day, the fact is they're shooting themselves in the foot every step of the way (thank God).

 

[irishScott]

Genuine question, what happens to the crime rate of ccw holders when you control for demographics, income, education,etc?

That's a good question, and one we don't really have the answer to. Another thing to control for is rate of carry; plenty of people get the permit but only carry every once in a while.

But given that Texas is a shall-issue state, getting a permit is affordable for most. I doubt CCW holders as a whole inordinately belong to any one demographic (relative to the demographics of Texas), but that's just speculation.

 

[LegendKiller]

This. People need to learn patience more than anything else. Everyone is competing for position on the roads... The other day while towing my 22 foot box trailer - one asshole pulled out in front of me because he didn't want to be behind me. * Note this was in heavy traffic and I was moving with traffic. I damn near had to lock up the trailer brakes... 5 minutes later another asshole cuts in front of me to get one position forward in the lane than he was before. That distance I had in front of me was my safety buffer for stopping all 16,000 pounds of vehicle and trailer.

People suck.

There was a semi riding my ass in heavy traffic last night on a very busy freeway. The car in front of me wasn't going as fast as he could have been but he was mostly keeping up in traffic.

So what did the semi do?

He pulled into the left lane, an HOV/toll lane, and proceeded to go 70 (in a 55) to pass while laying on his horn the whole time. The jackass had to quickly get back over into our lane and slam on his brakes because that lane slowed down again. For the next 15mi he didn't go any faster than us b/c of traffic.

I called the company's number and told them to do something about it or I would call the cops. If a state trooper had seen him he would probably have been looking at 1k in fines and perhaps his license revoked.

Here in MN I think drivers are probably the worst. I know that sounds cliche but I have lived in Miami, Orlando, DC, NYC, CT. In no place did people tailgate more and vie to cut people off than in MN. It's almost like they feel like they are road warriors cutting people off.

They may have a lower incident of accidents here but overall I think drivers are far worse.

My sister in law is so bad my brother had to put slotted/drilled brakes on her minivan because she tailgated so much that her brakes faded and burned up. Horrible driving...

 

[TerryMathews]

Looks like the George Zimmerman fan club lost a few members today. Like two dead bucks found entwined decaying in some bog, these gunslingers lie dead forever entwined in death. What a beautiful story.

Its about time these holy moly, gun totin, canyon shooting, freedom lovers finally slip. Getting real tired hearing about these clown shows where gun owners just hang around and look at each other with guns on their hips. The basis of all this is fear that leads to a compounding gun escalation. Eventually these responsible gun loving, law abiding citizens will turn on themselves. One day on the news there are gonna be 100 dead people shot at some congress of gun lovin nonsense. The violence is a dark cloud above these people's head.

Some day its gonna dawn on one these fat Zimmerman fucks that their life long dream of killin that negro in the white house isn't gonna happen. Once they realize they are getting to fat to see their holsters and the diabetes starts takin their digits...they'll just say "ah fuck it lets start shootin while i can!"

:awe:

 

[Tom]

Yes, money from over 4 million members in addition to industry. Considering it costs a minimum of $35 a year to be an NRA member, and many contribute a lot more, that's hundreds of millions just from private individuals. And their membership saw a nice spike this year BTW.

As for we have nothing to fear? Lol. Look at the likes of Governor Cuomo, who said "confiscation could be an option". Look at the fact that gun control advocates don't even attempt to license assault weapons, they go straight for the ban.

We have nothing to fear from the concepts of licensing and background checks, we have a TON to fear from those implementing said concepts. If you want me to be licensed, then fine. After going through dozens of hours of training, mental health checks and background checks, if approved I should be able to buy any gun I want in any configuration I want and in any quantity I want subject to renewal of the license every 5-10 years. That includes things like a fully automatic Tommy Gun or a Browning M2 Heavy Machine Gun. Oh and I want the second Amendment reworded to make any use of the licensing database outside of licensing/checking the status of licenses unconstitutional.

Find me a gun control advocate that supports those measures, find enough of them, and I'll submit to strenuous licensing and background/mental health checks.


In the meantime, gun control advocates are less concerned with preventing death and more concerned with some quixotic, immoral and unconstitutional quest to eliminate guns from society. So long as that remains the case, we gun owners have plenty to fear and plenty to fight. Gun control advocates can blame the NRA all day, the fact is they're shooting themselves in the foot every step of the way (thank God).

I said better training and better background checks. The NRA could be leading in those areas and that would diminish the power of the people YOU are afraid of, who are perceived as the only people who think there's a problem with theater goers getting shot up.

The NRA's response, arm everyone, and sell more guns, is a ridiculous response.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I said better training and better background checks. The NRA could be leading in those areas and that would diminish the power of the people YOU are afraid of, who are perceived as the only people who think there's a problem with theater goers getting shot up.

The NRA's response, arm everyone, and sell more guns, is a ridiculous response.

Maybe just maybe, you should write your representatives and have them push for strong compliance of the court systems getting information submitted to the national criminal background system so people who have felonies or gun related records can be prevented from buying weapons illegally.

 

[LumbergTech]

What he said was essentially water is wet but leave it to you to be dumb enough to argue against it. You are letting your rage get the better of you. A vast majority of CC permits require passing a background check. So of course permit holders are inherently going to be "more law abiding" than the rest. The rest consist partly of criminals, the permit holders don't.

if by inherently more law abiding you mean that the class of crimes they commit is not as easy to catch

 

[irishScott]

I said better training and better background checks. The NRA could be leading in those areas and that would diminish the power of the people YOU are afraid of, who are perceived as the only people who think there's a problem with theater goers getting shot up.

The NRA's response, arm everyone, and sell more guns, is a ridiculous response.

Actually, the NRA's response, taken straight from the horse's mouth, is:

http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2013/04/bpr-interview-nra-chief-lobbyist-christopher-cox/

(Chris Cox is the NRA's Chief Lobbyist)

Cox: Well, you know it’s a difficult issue. The NICS [National Instant Checks System] system was started in 1993 and over a billion dollars has already been spent. The way the system was set up initially was to give block grants directly to the states to get their records to the national system. Some states we found supported legislation in 2007 called the “NICS Improvement Act,” a bipartisan bill supported even by the gun control groups, to encourage the states to get those minimal adjudication records into the system.

It hasn’t worked, for a variety of reasons. Some states have state privacy laws prohibiting these kinds of records from getting into the system, so we are currently working with a number of states to change these laws so that the states are actually legally capable of putting them in the system. Mark Kelly testified that in Arizona there are over one hundred and twenty thousand records that were not put into state records. Some governors have not, for political reasons, wanted to put the records in the system. They are more interested in protecting and avoiding stigmatizing people who have been adjudicated as violent by not entering their names into the system. Governor O’Malley of Maryland has expressed a lack of willingness to enter those names into the system.

It is challenging, but if we are going to have a system, all the NRA has said is that it needs to be accurate and it needs to be fair. It is not only the mental health records, but also the felony records that were underreported, and the records on restraining orders were underreported. If you look at Newtown or Aurora or Tucson, a background check would not have prevented any of those individuals’ actions because they weren’t in the system. They had not been adjudicated by a court, and that goes to the problem of civil commitments in this country.

It is also impossible to get people into the system unless they have already committed a crime, and sadly many of these mass murderers are not in the system because people were not able to get them civilly committed. That is a bigger problem that we hope and pray Congress will address.

So improve NICS to catch more crazies.

Add in their response to Sandy Hook, which is to allow teachers to conceal carry per their states' regulations and give schools armed security. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Of course that involves "selling more guns", but God forbid such an act could have positive outcomes!


But I'm sure you'll never catch the Huffington Post distributing primary sources like that.

 

[xBiffx]

if by inherently more law abiding you mean that the class of crimes they commit is not as easy to catch

Yeah, its a giant conspiracy. CCW holders are rampantly out committing cloak and dagger crimes everywhere.

 

[God Mode]

Are there many convictions or incidents for CCW holders pulling a gun at the drop of a hat?

 

[Tom]

Maybe just maybe, you should write your representatives and have them push for strong compliance of the court systems getting information submitted to the national criminal background system so people who have felonies or gun related records can be prevented from buying weapons illegally.

Why "should" I do that, Dad ?

 

[TerryMathews]

Why "should" I do that, Dad ?

If you cared about effecting change instead of simply bitching, you would.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If you cared about effecting change instead of simply bitching, you would.

Obviously Tom's just another troll amongst many on this forum as no one can really be as dense as he acts on here.

 

[Nebor]

I've never committed a violent crime and I don't have a CCW. I'm just really skeptical of the statistic. Are they lumping criminals in with the general population when calculating this statistic? I'd bet they are.

Compared to the general population (which probably includes criminals) CCW holders (who represent an extremely low percentage of the population) commit fewer crimes... except when they kill someone. Geez... I'm overwhelmed by this mountain of evidence... you must be right.

There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics.

I... what?

The rate at which CCW holders commit violent crimes is lower than that of police officers and far lower than that of all non-CCW holders. Is that clearer? I feel like it's obvious that "criminals" would be lumped in with the general population. :hmm:

Here's the link where you can find all that sort of data. You can also see that in Texas, CHLs are held almost exclusively by wealthy, urban\suburban white people. It's largely a function of having the second most expensive CHL in the country (next to New York.) Florida also has expensive permits. If I were to guess, I'd say that that has more to do with the overall low crime rates amongst CHL holders in those two states than anything else. It's also why crime rates by CHLs in states like Alabama & Mississippi (where licenses cost $10) aren't bandied about by gun rights advocates.

 

[Nebor]

Does the NRA fund those reports? :whiste:

Texas & Florida Department of Public Safety (the issuing authority for CHLs) fund the reports.

 

[Nebor]

Genuine question, what happens to the crime rate of ccw holders when you control for demographics, income, education,etc?

Dang, I didn't see your post. See my reply to Jules. The high cost of permit & training in Texas and Florida limits them to mainly wealthy white people in the most populous counties. I bet if you had the data for New York state (where the permits are the most expensive and hard to obtain in the country) you'd see some really saintly CHL licensees.

 

[Nebor]

Are there many convictions or incidents for CCW holders pulling a gun at the drop of a hat?

I'm sure it happens. I mean, look at the pair in the OP. It just happens exceedingly rarely.

 

[umbrella39]

It appears from preliminary reports from witnesses the PT only pulled into the parking lot to let the tailgater in the Taurus pass and that guy then pulled in behind them and got out and started shooting. It appears the guy in the PT was only defending himself and his family. There was a wife and a mother in law riding in the PT who uninjured and again at least according to the witnesses the guy in the Taurus was the aggressor. If this is how it went down good on the guy in the PT who was able to take the shooter down before others were killed.

 

[trenchfoot]

Even more blood sacrifice to the NRA's Altar of Peace, Paranoia and Profit.

You'd think if the NRA was more concerned about how often people get killed from firearm use rather than how much more profit can be made for the industry they are the titular symbol and representative thereof, much more effort on their part (read - "expense") would be seen and felt by those who would benefit from it.

I guess it's unfair to say so in some ways, but if the NRA wishes to be THE representative of the firearms industry in the USA, along with being an organization that heavily influences and speaks for the nation's firearm enthusiasts who support said industry, then the NRA should also in part bear the responsibility of the consequences of its policies and profit making goals.

As for those two guys who killed each other, so sad for their families and loved ones. But one has to wonder: Did possession of those firearms affect each shooter's decision making process to the point where the confrontation was then inevitable and deadly? Would the confrontation not occur if both had been unarmed?

 

[schneiderguy]

Even more blood sacrifice to the NRA's Altar of Peace, Paranoia and Profit.

You'd think if the NRA was more concerned about how often people get killed from firearm use rather than how much more profit can be made for the industry they are the titular symbol and representative thereof, much more effort on their part (read - "expense") would be seen and felt by those who would benefit from it.

I guess it's unfair to say so in some ways, but if the NRA wishes to be THE representative of the firearms industry in the USA, along with being an organization that heavily influences and speaks for the nation's firearm enthusiasts who support said industry, then the NRA should also in part bear the responsibility of the consequences of its policies and profit making goals.

As for those two guys who killed each other, so sad for their families and loved ones. But one has to wonder: Did possession of those firearms affect each shooter's decision making process to the point where the confrontation was then inevitable and deadly? Would the confrontation not occur if both had been unarmed?

I renewed my NRA membership today just for you :wub:

 

[brandonbull]

Well, one thing is for certain, and here's the ironic part, if these two idiots weren't armed they'd both still be alive.

The very tool that was supposed to protect them ended up costing both of them their lives.

I guess the next thing you will tell us is that if someone wasn't dead, they would be alive.

 

[bshole]

Two idiots killed each other. Seems like a win for society. Regardless of who initiated the shooting, just pulling over meant the guy was looking for a confrontation and he got one. If he was smart, he'd have kept driving while dialing 911.

Well that is what most RATIONAL people do. Give some guys a gun and they just have to show the world how macho they are. I NEVER but NEVER would even consider pulling over my car to confront some stranger who is in rage. That is real real real common sense and that is why I always carry a PHONE.

I guess they both STOOD their ground..... bahahahahahaha!!!!!

Here is one of the "heroes". Could he look any more redneck?

 

[Zodiark1593]

Well that is what most RATIONAL people do. Give some guys a gun and they just have to show the world how macho they are. I NEVER but NEVER would even consider pulling over my car to confront some stranger who is in rage. That is real real real common sense and that is why I always carry a PHONE.

I guess they both STOOD their ground..... bahahahahahaha!!!!!

Here is one of the "heroes". Could he look any more redneck?

Amazing specimen you have there, his neck actually looks red. :hmm:

 

[colonelciller]

moments of passion where people are acting out of irrational uncharacterisic rage (and likely could be deemed temporarily insane) are the biggest danger to anyone owning a gun, living with someone who owns a gun or near someone who owns a gun.

no guns in this scenario and these 2 guys would likely have screamed at each other, maybe thrown some punches and it could have been broken up by the passengers in the other car. Even with knives involved is is a MUCH different thing to walk up to someone's face and stab them than it is to pull a trigger from a distance.

this story reminds me why I should just shrug off idiots that drive like moronic d!ckheads.

 

[Oyeve]

This needs to happen more often. Weed em all out I say. The faster the better.