Two numbers that show how badly America’s middle class is hurting

[Zaap]

We're also seem to be leaving out the fact that homeowners can deduct a lot of these expenses, even the mortgage payment if it's paying down interest. In Matt's original example of $1000 mortgage payment vs $1200 rent- the $1000 mp is deductible if it's not paying principal.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
It's not a failure for the rich elite especially those in here.

There are very few "rich elites" that frequent AT.

I make about 70% more today than I did in 2009, but that's because I took a chance and changed jobs last year and went into consulting. It may not last forever but it was worth the risk and I am hardly a rich elite.

You really should do something about your jealousy problem.

Feeling guilty oh Elitist one.

No one is forcing your eyes and fingers to read and reply to my post yet here you are every time.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Feeling guilty oh Elitist one.

No one is forcing your eyes and fingers to read and reply to my post yet here you are every time.

Why would I feel guilty for making a good living?

I reply to your posts because someone has to answer your constant trolling.

 

[TerryMathews]

What example? What figures? Sounds like you don't understand a word of my post. No biggie.

Op. LTR.

 

[TerryMathews]

We're also seem to be leaving out the fact that homeowners can deduct a lot of these expenses, even the mortgage payment if it's paying down interest. In Matt's original example of $1000 mortgage payment vs $1200 rent- the $1000 mp is deductible if it's not paying principal.

Weird, you seem to have found the example after all. gratz!

 

[Dannar26]

I guess we better tax the crap out of everyone. That'll fix everything!



Hey! Where did all the businesses go!?

 

[TerryMathews]

We're also seem to be leaving out the fact that homeowners can deduct a lot of these expenses, even the mortgage payment if it's paying down interest. In Matt's original example of $1000 mortgage payment vs $1200 rent- the $1000 mp is deductible if it's not paying principal.

I wouldn't count on that deduction being around for 30 years... http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20140811/ARTICLE/308119986

 

[blake0812]

I guess we better tax the crap out of everyone. That'll fix everything!



Hey! Where did all the businesses go!?

Only big business, I think should be taxed heavily. Throwing a bone could help.

 

[dmcowen674]

Why would I feel guilty for making a good living?

There you go, you just admitted you're rich elite.

Was that so hard?

Of course based on your posts we all knew that already anyway.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

There you go, you just admitted you're rich elite.

Was that so hard?

Of course based on your posts we all knew that already anyway.

Making a good living is now considered rich elite? What a delusional turd. If I were "rich elite," do you think I'd even bother working? The answer to that is: NO!

I bet your salary is more than the median family income in the US. I guess that makes you rich.

 

[Zaap]

Weird, you seem to have found the example after all. gratz!

Communication isn't your thing, is it? Why would I be responding to Matt's example, to you? And why wouldn't his example be accurate? The whole point of a rental property is to charge enough rent to pay the mortgage and have a slight bit of income. So $1000 mortgage vs. $1200 rent sounds about right- here in LA, double/triple/quadruple those figures.

And because you left out the tax benefits of ownership in your gloom and doom examples, now you cite me pointing it out as if that's a check box in your argument? Whatever.

And count on tax breaks for 30 years?

How about people counting on their rent not going up (astronomically!) for 30 years? Think their incomes automagically will also, to match?

Truth is, 30 years from now when both rent and mortgages are figures that will make most peoples' heads spin- many of us owners will be owning, and living in a nice place, some of us collecting from renters on several places. Many lifelong renters will be paying an outrageous fortune for a tiny little 1 room box somewhere, if they can even afford that. At that point, no one will give most a loan for anything- it's too late, there is no more 30 years to pay it off, and probably people's incomes aren't what they were in their prime either.

If we're being honest, 30 years of homeownership vs. 30 years of renting- like I say, I'll take the owning any day. But good luck and happy trails to those that rent for that long. Seriously, my best wishes.

 

[TerryMathews]

Communication isn't your thing, is it? Why would I be responding to Matt's example, to you?

Because that's what I was discussing? This isn't rocket science.

Sorry I got your panties in a twist over own/rent. Clearly, people are better off not comprehending the TCO of purchasing their home and instead just repeating your mantra of "Own = better".

Tool.

 

[Zaap]

Because that's what I was discussing? This isn't rocket science.

Pay better attention next time, doofus. I was responding to your one-sided non-argument about washers and dryers and bullshit over 30 years, while leaving out 30 years worth of equity in a property vs. zero equity paying rent. (That's not even to mention most people probably having traded-up to several far more valuable properties during that time.)

If you're too stupid to follow a conversation, that's one thing, but you don't have to make a big show of your stupidity.

 

[TerryMathews]

Pay better attention next time, doofus. I was responding to your one-sided non-argument about washers and dryers and bullshit over 30 years, while leaving out 30 years worth of equity in a property vs. zero equity paying rent. (That's not even to mention most people probably having traded-up to several far more valuable properties during that time.)

If you're too stupid to follow a conversation, that's one thing, but you don't have to make a big show of your stupidity.

Good one! Why don't you insult my mother next, that way you will truly have achieved the prototypical stance of dominance!

Call it bullshit all you want, you got your panties in a twist because I suggested people take a measured and more thorough look into the total costs of purchase vs rent before jumping into the decision.

You still seem to be laboring under the assumption that I think home ownership is a bad idea. I can't help you with your prejudice. Seek counseling, OK? I feel you're only one psychotic break away from becoming Moonie 2.0.

 

[Exterous]

Well of course there are better investments, but we were talking renting vs. owning, not owning vs. other investments.

Given that in many cases there are cheaper rental options than owning options it is disingenuous to ignore what could be done with the savings from renting. Since you brought up equity I merely pointed out that the forced savings program called a paid off mortgage has a pitiful return. It is well within the realm of possibility that someone could pay less for rent, invest the money and have an account that far surpasses the equity in a house after 30 years

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Given that in many cases there are cheaper rental options than owning options it is disingenuous to ignore what could be done with the savings from renting. Since you brought up equity I merely pointed out that the forced savings program called a paid off mortgage has a pitiful return. It is well within the realm of possibility that someone could pay less for rent, invest the money and have an account that far surpasses the equity in a house after 30 years

Neit.

Unless you lived in a slum shityard of a 1 bedroom apartment (or 1 room altogether apartment) and compared it to a 5-star mansion mortgage, there is no way in shit there would be a positive difference in payment, let alone a difference going into investment account accumulating more net worth than the equity worth going up.

Keep dreaming though.

 

[BoberFett]

A home is a place to live, not an investment. This has been said many times in the past several years, but apparently everyone in this thread went full retard.

 

[TerryMathews]

A home is a place to live, not an investment. This has been said many times in the past several years, but apparently everyone in this thread went full retard.

Not everyone.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

A home is a place to live, not an investment. This has been said many times in the past several years, but apparently everyone in this thread went full retard.

A home - Much like a job - much like a 401k - much like just about ANY equity is an investment - whether you intended to or not. The reason why a home is talked about in regards to investments often is because it is often a very good one - and a VERY important one.

If you recently bought a home in Detroit prior to the collapse, I have some bad news for you as far as your Investment skills and overall IQ level.

It's not just a place to live. It's a loan for 99% of people, and it's an investment that can be flipped into you drowning if you don't watch yourself and do your due diligence. If you don't do your homework and recognize the neighborhood has gone down over the last 5 years... protip: It's likely going to continue going downhill.

I know some of you don't work in the business world so this is like trying to teach monkeys how to spell, but whatever

 

[BoberFett]

Oh yeah, an asset that appreciates at roughly the rate of inflation in a stable market and needs constant cash infusions just to maintain its value is a phenomenal investment. Your business acumen is legendary!

 

[Exterous]

Neit.

Unless you lived in a slum shityard of a 1 bedroom apartment (or 1 room altogether apartment) and compared it to a 5-star mansion mortgage, there is no way in shit there would be a positive difference in payment, let alone a difference going into investment account accumulating more net worth than the equity worth going up.

Keep dreaming though.

Keep dreaming? I must have completely made up something called the city of Ann Arbor Michigan or every city where rental unit availability out paces supply and\or homeownership options. A nice 2 bed room 2 bath apartment in downtown will run you around $1,250 a month(According to the University of Michigan website). Average mortgage for a similar house\condo in the same area is going to run upwards of $275,000 (using zillow and trulia). According to the city of ann arbor tax on $275k is around $8500. Taking a 30 year mortgage at 3.5% interest rates gives you a monthly payment around $2,200. Taking the $11,000 in savings each year over 30 years and you end up with a retirement account worth over $1.1M using an inflation adjusted 7% return. This is before considering any PMI, utilities that are usually included in rentals, homeowner expenses (suggested planning is 1% on value of home if not higher so minimum $2750 a year). Using historic inflation adjusted ROI numbers your house would be worth just under $300,000.

That is quite a bit more than the house would be worth. So much so you can quibble with my numbers quite a bit. Maybe you want an even nicer apartment at $1600. Well, thats $850,000. Still worth significantly more than the house. 7% too high? 5% on that $1600 a month appt = $502,000

Dont let actual examples and numbers stand in the way of your pre-conceived notions though

 

[Anubis]

Neit.

Unless you lived in a slum shityard of a 1 bedroom apartment (or 1 room altogether apartment) and compared it to a 5-star mansion mortgage, there is no way in shit there would be a positive difference in payment, let alone a difference going into investment account accumulating more net worth than the equity worth going up.

Keep dreaming though.

you need to get out more

What he said is correct for many parts of the country, however in certain areas where rent and a mortgage are basically the same price it does not work out

 

[Matt1970]

That's not a no brainer.

#1-are any utilities included in the rent? Typically rent includes something
#2-youre not accounting for any PM in the purchase scenario. Over a 30 year term, you're going to be in to 3 water heaters, 4 washers and dryers, a fridge, and a roof (on average). That would be optimistic, as any homeowner will tell you. Other things go wrong.
#3-you said taxes, so I'm assuming no insurance? Tack on at least another $50/month for homeowners.

I'm all for home ownership, but many people don't take into account TCO and end up losing everything when something catastrophic happens.

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this thread. The whole point of this is that after 30 years, you no longer have a mortgage. If you are in an apartment or renting a house and struggling at full salary, wait till you are on social security and a pension trying to pay the same bills. The cost of water heaters, washers and dryers, a fridge, and a roof are chump change compared to the tens of thousands you are throwing away each month on rent. Buying a house is and will always be a no brainer.

 

[dmcowen674]

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this thread. The whole point of this is that after 30 years, you no longer have a mortgage. If you are in an apartment or renting a house and struggling at full salary, wait till you are on social security and a pension trying to pay the same bills. The cost of water heaters, washers and dryers, a fridge, and a roof are chump change compared to the tens of thousands you are throwing away each month on rent. Buying a house is and will always be a no brainer.

Maybe upstate NY where you are but in most cities, property taxes is well over $1,000 a month, many places like Long Island approaching $3,000 a month for an ordinary 3 bd 2 bath ranch.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Maybe upstate NY where you are but in most cities, property taxes is well over $1,000 a month, many places like Long Island approaching $3,000 a month for an ordinary 3 bd 2 bath ranch.

I'd like to see a link for proof of that $3,000/month figure for property taxes.