U.S. Navy-China showdown: Chinese try to halt U.S. cruiser in international waters

calyco

Senior member
Oct 7, 2004
825
1
81
Always poking and prodding but never dares to swing

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/13/us-navy-china-showdown-chinese-try-halt-us-cruiser/

A Chinese naval vessel tried to force a U.S. guided missile warship to stop in international waters recently, causing a tense military standoff in the latest case of Chinese maritime harassment, according to defense officials.
The guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens, which recently took part in disaster relief operations in the Philippines, was confronted by Chinese warships in the South China Sea near Beijing’s new aircraft carrier Liaoning, according to officials familiar with the incident.

“On December 5th, while lawfully operating in international waters in the South China Sea, USS Cowpens and a PLA Navy vessel had an encounter that required maneuvering to avoid a collision,” a Navy official said.
“This incident underscores the need to ensure the highest standards of professional seamanship, including communications between vessels, to mitigate the risk of an unintended incident or mishap.”
A State Department official said the U.S. government issued protests to China in both Washington and Beijing in both diplomatic and military channels.
The Cowpens was conducting surveillance of the Liaoning at the time. The carrier had recently sailed from the port of Qingdao on the northern Chinese coast into the South China Sea.
According to the officials, the run-in began after a Chinese navy vessel sent a hailing warning and ordered the Cowpens to stop. The cruiser continued on its course and refused the order because it was operating in international waters.
Then a Chinese tank landing ship sailed in front of the Cowpens and stopped, forcing the Cowpens to abruptly change course in what the officials said was a dangerous maneuver.

According to the officials, the Cowpens was conducting a routine operation done to exercise its freedom of navigation near the Chinese carrier when the incident occurred about a week ago.
The encounter was the type of incident that senior Pentagon officials recently warned could take place as a result of heightened tensions in the region over China’s declaration of an air defense identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea.
Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently called China’s new air defense zone destabilizing and said it increased the risk of a military “miscalculation.”
China’s military forces in recent days have dispatched Su-30 and J-11 fighter jets, as well as KJ-2000 airborne warning and control aircraft, to the zone to monitor the airspace that is used frequently by U.S. and Japanese military surveillance aircraft.

The United States has said it does not recognize China’s ADIZ, as has Japan’s government.
Two U.S. B-52 bombers flew through the air zone last month but were not shadowed by Chinese interceptor jets.
Chinese naval and air forces also have been pressing Japan in the East China Sea over Tokyo’s purchase a year ago of several uninhabited Senkaku Islands located north of Taiwan and south of Okinawa.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...wn-chinese-try-halt-us-cruiser/#ixzz2nN8MTWMZ
 
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cyclohexane

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2005
2,837
19
81
How would the US react if chinese ships were 120 miles off the coast of California, technically international waters? No reaction? I think not.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,565
7,618
136
How would the US react if chinese ships were 120 miles off the coast of California, technically international waters? No reaction? I think not.

A fair assessment.

Much as the article is describing the Chinese being aggressive, we were in their backyard.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,751
4,558
136
Shoulda just blown them up.

Before you know it, the economy would be back on it's feet, everyone has a job and we finally get to use all these super futuristic guns and weapons we've been developing for decades. win-win all around.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
136
A fair assessment.

Much as the article is describing the Chinese being aggressive, we were in their backyard.

The article isn't specific as to exactly where it happened outside of it being in the South China Sea. If you look at a map of that territory you can see that it is surrounded by numerous US allies like Japan and Taiwan. While I agree that the US wouldn't be happy with Chinese ships sitting that close, the two situations aren't particularly comparable.
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
A fair assessment.

Much as the article is describing the Chinese being aggressive, we were in their backyard.

We were in international waters, that's the point, and not "in their backyard."

They are going to do something stupid, and find out what it's like to get curb stomped.

Bring it on, I say. Our boys need some target practice.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
why does the us and other countries still allow china to act so aggressivly. i agree with the idea that we would react over chinese ships off our coast, but i dought even our country would act like china. remember that china has been acting like this over the spratley islands and japan. where does this air defense zone fit in un laws
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,781
845
126
We were in international waters, that's the point, and not "in their backyard."

They are going to do something stupid, and find out what it's like to get curb stomped.

Bring it on, I say. Our boys need some target practice.

The problem is this is china's view on the sea as they think they can claim the entire thing more or less:

 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
China has expansionist ambitions. Because it's called the "South China Sea", China is adopting the attitude that it belongs to them, and they think they've built up enough military muscle to make it stick.

The question now is what happens next.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
China has expansionist ambitions. Because it's called the "South China Sea", China is adopting the attitude that it belongs to them, and they think they've built up enough military muscle to make it stick.

The question now is what happens next.

What happens next is either China smartly does nothing, or gets curb stomped. Like it or not they don't have anything resembling the military capacity to take and hold the region. The most they can do is fume and be assholes about it, like what happened in the OP.
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
What happens next is either China smartly does nothing, or gets curb stomped. Like it or not they don't have anything resembling the military capacity to take and hold the region. The most they can do is fume and be assholes about it, like what happened in the OP.

In purely naval terms sure it would be a route. But China can certainly do alot of killing and taking of ground. Taiwan would be a speed bump. While we may be able to project force into the region it would be hubris to think we could stop China from expanding it's borders.

There is also the larger implications of world war. All it takes is a spark. China has had Japan on their shit list for longer than we've been a country. The damn Ruskies still have all sorts of nasty stuff at their disposal and would be all too happy to sell/supply the chinese. Then that idiot Kim Jong will start in and we'd be sitting in our fancy ships with no way of getting anywhere even close to the entire eastern coastline.

I think we should tred lightly. Yes, we have a big stick but it's best not to have to use it.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Look like bully china is trying acting tough/bad ass again. This is not the first time they did it = http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/09/us.navy.china/ and don't forget about their jet fighter pilot crashed into our unarmed survey plane in international air space about 10 years ago.

But unlike smaller neighbors, the US does have a pretty good Navy and Air Force. Good luck bully china.

Oh, I was about to post a similar picture as Newbian. Everyone in the neighborhood are happy with the status quo (the blue lines) except china (the big red line which claims over 90% of the sea). That's how bully china and brainwashed chinese think about international water, as their own lake and territories.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
the question is not what the international community does think but what are they willing to do about it
 

PieIsAwesome

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2007
4,054
1
0
In purely naval terms sure it would be a route. But China can certainly do alot of killing and taking of ground. Taiwan would be a speed bump. While we may be able to project force into the region it would be hubris to think we could stop China from expanding it's borders.

There is also the larger implications of world war. All it takes is a spark. China has had Japan on their shit list for longer than we've been a country. The damn Ruskies still have all sorts of nasty stuff at their disposal and would be all too happy to sell/supply the chinese. Then that idiot Kim Jong will start in and we'd be sitting in our fancy ships with no way of getting anywhere even close to the entire eastern coastline.

I think we should tred lightly. Yes, we have a big stick but it's best not to have to use it.

China cannot take Taiwan with their current capabilities.

China is being aggressive, but that is all they can do.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
In purely naval terms sure it would be a route. But China can certainly do alot of killing and taking of ground. Taiwan would be a speed bump. While we may be able to project force into the region it would be hubris to think we could stop China from expanding it's borders.

There is also the larger implications of world war. All it takes is a spark. China has had Japan on their shit list for longer than we've been a country. The damn Ruskies still have all sorts of nasty stuff at their disposal and would be all too happy to sell/supply the chinese. Then that idiot Kim Jong will start in and we'd be sitting in our fancy ships with no way of getting anywhere even close to the entire eastern coastline.

I think we should tred lightly. Yes, we have a big stick but it's best not to have to use it.

I was under the impression the Chinese lacked any real amphibious capabilities? Thats the first thing anyone says when a Chinese invasion of the mainland US is brought up.
 

PieIsAwesome

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2007
4,054
1
0
I was under the impression the Chinese lacked any real amphibious capabilities? Thats the first thing anyone says when a Chinese invasion of the mainland US is brought up.

The strait between China and Taiwan is a lot like the English Channel in terms of distance. The Germans with all their strength had no hope in hell of successfully invading Britain across the channel. Look what it took for the allies to invade Europe across the channel during Operation Overlord.

China does not have the sea-lift or air-life capabilities to move sufficient numbers of troops and materials quickly enough. They do not have the air force or navy to ensure their safe passage either. Their heavy lift craft for transporting heavy weaponry are limited in numbers and irreplaceable if lost. Without the heavy lift craft they are boned already. Down a few and that is it.

Based on their capabilities, a number I've seen is them being able to airlift 30,000 troops in 48 hours. This is generous. If they are extremely lucky and successfully land these troops, they are still inadequate. Not enough troops or equipment to to take any major objectives and not enough to last against a counterattack by the defending army. Taiwanese mechanized divisions will make short work of them. There are also limited areas in Taiwan where paratrooper drops are viable, and there would be mechanized divisions waiting for the paratroopers. Taiwan also has a very dense SAM network.

The giant land army is irrelevant in a sea war if you cannot move them, protect them in transit, and supply them.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
their current amphibious capabilities are irrelevant at best because no war is going to happen relativly soon. however their amphibious and blue water power will dramatically increase within the next decade or two. they are building new amhibious air carriers, are outfitting a russian aircreaft carriers for research and tests, and maybe even service, and are designing their own aircraft carrier design
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
In purely naval terms sure it would be a route. But China can certainly do alot of killing and taking of ground. Taiwan would be a speed bump. While we may be able to project force into the region it would be hubris to think we could stop China from expanding it's borders.

There is also the larger implications of world war. All it takes is a spark. China has had Japan on their shit list for longer than we've been a country. The damn Ruskies still have all sorts of nasty stuff at their disposal and would be all too happy to sell/supply the chinese. Then that idiot Kim Jong will start in and we'd be sitting in our fancy ships with no way of getting anywhere even close to the entire eastern coastline.

I think we should tred lightly. Yes, we have a big stick but it's best not to have to use it.

And exactly what "ground" would they be taking? We're talking the South China sea. Everything would be decided by Naval and Air power, where China is hopelessly outmatched. Taiwan a speed-bump? I think the Taiwanese would have something to say about that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Armed_Forces

The ROC's armed forces number approximately 300,000, and reserves reportedly total 3,870,000. Conscription remains universal for qualified males reaching age 18. Force streamlining programs under way since 1997 are combining redundant institutions and steadily reducing the military to 270,000 personnel by 2012. However, even then there would be compulsory basic training for all males reaching 18. As the size of the force decreases, the ROC intends to gradually expand the number of volunteer soldiers with the eventual goal of forming an all volunteer career force.[14]

Yeah, that's a helluva "speed bump", especially considering any assault would have to be amphibious. All the Taiwanese would have to do is hold on until Taiwanese and US air and naval forces obliterate any assaulting Chinese fleet.

I agree it's best not to provoke a confrontation, but appeasement of Chinese expansionism isn't healthy. China could use a stern reminder to keep its hands to itself.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
How would the US react if chinese ships were 120 miles off the coast of California, technically international waters? No reaction? I think not.

Don't you know that there is a huge double standard with what all other countries do and what we do? It's all about "American Exceptionalism". We hold ourselves as superior, well except for our kids' test scores, or our healthcare costs, or our CO2 emissions, or our surveillance morality, etc., etc., etc.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
I agree it's best not to provoke a confrontation, but appeasement of Chinese expansionism isn't healthy. China could use a stern reminder to keep its hands to itself.

But if we go the appeasement route, there will be peace in our time!
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
appeasement is exactly why this should be handled. sanctions of some sort might work, but they do not have to involve consumer products. that way the international business community might not be so averse to the effects of economic sanctions on the international economy. maybe science or space might work.
 
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