U.S. Navy-China showdown: Chinese try to halt U.S. cruiser in international waters

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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
the whole point of the russian carrier is to learn about aircraft carriers in the first place.

Exactly. And once they learn they'll be where we were a few decades ago.

I'm just saying the US is not being stagnant, especially on a military front. The Chinese are a rising power, but they have a long way to go before equaling the current US military, let alone what we''ll have in the future. You're making the massive assumption that China will continue to grow and the US will stay the same or shrink, over decades.

If China is ever in a position to seriously challenge the US, you think the US won't respond? By your logic the Soviets should have won the Cold War.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
they will advance faster than we did with that technology because it is already researched and available illicit or not. once the lead diminishes their technological advancement will slow to more normal levels. they are catching up to current technology, not inventing.

the us is also advancing, but economic and politacal problems are ruining much of it. i think certain programs like drones and cyberwarfare to advance well, but bigger projects that require more investmant and stability (not canceling programs every 2 years) might slow down compared to china.

the soviets and us were comparable in strength for most of the cold war, except for economy. they mostly told people what their jobs were, like the chinese, so maybe they were working around this for that time. people often cite the loss of the cold war as the failing of communism, but here capitalism is failing 20 years later. economic systems are not necessarily a country or civilization. osama knew what he was doing, we wanted america to fail by going after him. and we did and spent all our money.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
those problems effect many countries, including the us, not just china. pollution does not just stay in the country it is made in. also china is starting to handle the pollution problem with much more urgency.

water is considered one of the biggest issues of the 21st century. it affects india just as much as china. except that china has the tibetan plateau and indias water supply with it.

old age affects many asian countries. the us is not immune. social security?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
they will advance faster than we did with that technology because it is already researched and available illicit or not. once the lead diminishes their technological advancement will slow to more normal levels. they are catching up to current technology, not inventing.

the us is also advancing, but economic and politacal problems are ruining much of it. i think certain programs like drones and cyberwarfare to advance well, but bigger projects that require more investmant and stability (not canceling programs every 2 years) might slow down compared to china.

the soviets and us were comparable in strength for most of the cold war, except for economy. they mostly told people what their jobs were, like the chinese, so maybe they were working around this for that time. people often cite the loss of the cold war as the failing of communism, but here capitalism is failing 20 years later. economic systems are not necessarily a country or civilization. osama knew what he was doing, we wanted america to fail by going after him. and we did and spent all our money.

Capitalism is failing? Lol. Capitalism has seen far worse than what's currently going on and survived. The great depression makes what's going on today look like a picnic.

And sure that's what Osama wanted, and we did spend a good chunk of money going after him, but that's hardly our core problem at the moment. If America fails it won't be because of anything Osama did.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
read asian juggernaut. it is from an indian so it is somewhat biased, but it is done in typical indian polite neutral fashion.

you might find some of it online. maybe google books or something.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106

you thinking of capitalism as what is being currently practiced, neither classical liberalism (laizze fairre) or mixed economy (third way). most of the developed world have state healthcare and do much better than us. most of europe, latin america, asia, middle east, etc. they all have state healthcare. also the world was not in such a state of power shift as it is today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics

also read this. touqerville predicted america and russia being the most powerful countries almost 200 years ago. he also was able to figure out american attitudes fairly easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_America

maybe you should read some of adam smith. i really have not read a lot about him, but classical leberalism may have evolved against mercantilism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_smith

osama may be gone, but the taliban, extremists, and the sis are still around. pakistan is a long term problem for us. maybe we should make peace with rouhani and iran, considering they are friends of india, and enemies of sunni extremists.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
you thinking of capitalism as what is being currently practiced, neither classical liberalism (laizze fairre) or mixed economy (third way). most of the developed world have state healthcare and do much better than us. most of europe, latin america, asia, middle east, etc. they all have state healthcare. also the world was not in such a state of power shift as it is today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics

also read this. touqerville predicted america and russia being the most powerful countries almost 200 years ago. he also was able to figure out american attitudes fairly easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_America


Funny you would link to Detocqueville while advocating state run healthcare.

"But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level, and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom""

"Tocqueville warned that modern democracy may be adept at inventing new forms of tyranny... In such conditions we lose interest in the future of our descendents...and meekly allow ourselves to be led in ignorance by a despotic force all the more powerful because it does not resemble one. "

"In contrast, a despotism under a democracy could see "a multitude of men", uniformly alike, equal, "constantly circling for petty pleasures", unaware of fellow citizens, and subject to the will of a powerful state which exerted an "immense protective power".[3]

"Tocqueville compared a potentially despotic democratic government to a protective parent who wants to keep its citizens (children) as "perpetual children", and which doesn't break men's wills but rather guides it, and presides over people in the same way as a shepherd looking after a "flock of timid animals".[3]"

Sound familiar?

Sheep...
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,989
38,403
136
I'm starting to really feel for the common Chinese serving in their military.

A lot of them are going to die at some point because Beijing is hellbent on acting like a drunk teenager who thinks he's 8ft tall.

Inevitably guys like that get an unpleasant jolt back to reality in the form of a thorough ass kicking.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
did not say that i believe all that he says.

i was just noting what some of what he said about america.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
he also talks about america potentially becoming a merchant autocracy

The primary focus of Democracy in America is an analysis of why republican representative democracy has succeeded in the United States while failing in so many other places. Tocqueville seeks to apply the functional aspects of democracy in the United States to what he sees as the failings of democracy in his native France.[11]

Tocqueville speculates on the future of democracy in the United States, discussing possible threats to democracy and possible dangers of democracy. These include his belief that democracy has a tendency to degenerate into "soft despotism" as well as the risk of developing a tyranny of the majority. He observes that the strong role religion played in the United States was due to its separation from the government, a separation all parties found agreeable. He contrasts this to France where there was what he perceived to be an unhealthy antagonism between democrats and the religious, which he relates to the connection between church and state.

Insightful analysis of political society was supplemented in the second volume by description of civil society as a sphere of private and civilian affairs.[12]

Tocqueville's views on the United States took a darker turn after 1840, however, as made evident in Aurelian Craiutu's Tocqueville on America after 1840: Letters and Other Writings.

state run health care would not prevent private healthcare

there are many different thoughts on how capitalism should be run. i believe a mixture of free market and socialism would work until we could find a better form of government. i do not necessarily believe that things such as taxes are just. they are just a necessary expense to keep the government runnign in lieu of a better option.

what is wrong with a sheep?

i am sure some sheep very nice lives. better to just be used for fur than food.

what about an anole?
 

Karl Agathon

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2010
1,081
0
0
'norseamd' registered very very recently. I wonder if the CCP is paying him to post all his very obvious, very pro china and blatant anti-American hatred here? Or, is he just an extremely belligerent Chinese hyper-nationalist that happens to live in the US doing it for free, for his mother China. Maybe simply just the case of being from another country and just worshipers China.
 
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Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
those problems effect many countries, including the us, not just china. pollution does not just stay in the country it is made in. also china is starting to handle the pollution problem with much more urgency.

You're kidding right? China has no clue how to tackle the pollution issue. A mess of that magnitude is going to take DECADES to clean up, assuming they do everything properly which they haven't shown they are capable of doing.

Also, cleaning things up will mean much stronger environmental regulations that will have to be enforced, that will result in far less economic growth and success. Economic growth and success is what the Communist party derives it's legitimacy from, so I can't see them giving that up anytime soon.

The pollution is China is so bad, that much of their soil has now been contaminated, reducing the amount of arable land. How much land has been poisoned is unknown, because the Chinese government is unwilling to release numbers..

But if they're unwilling to release information, then it must be really bad.

Honestly, I feel very sorry for the average Chinese citizen, who are victims of their government's "success at any cost" agenda.. Chinese people love their children just like we love ours, but I would never want to raise a child on Chinese soil given how polluted the land, air and water are..
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,955
8,681
136
"Near" is a relative term, nor is this an isolated incident, as stated in the article. A better question is how the Chinese might hypothetically respond if situations were reversed and they had all the Naval power. I sincerely doubt they'd limit themselves to surveillance.

Near is a relative term but the horizon is pretty close at sea, so it would certainly seem that that missile cruiser would have been in a position that would have beget a reaction from the US navy if the positions were reversed.

That wouldn't be a better question as it's not grounded in reality and is unanswerable.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
You're kidding right? China has no clue how to tackle the pollution issue. A mess of that magnitude is going to take DECADES to clean up, assuming they do everything properly which they haven't shown they are capable of doing.

Also, cleaning things up will mean much stronger environmental regulations that will have to be enforced, that will result in far less economic growth and success. Economic growth and success is what the Communist party derives it's legitimacy from, so I can't see them giving that up anytime soon.

The pollution is China is so bad, that much of their soil has now been contaminated, reducing the amount of arable land. How much land has been poisoned is unknown, because the Chinese government is unwilling to release numbers..

But if they're unwilling to release information, then it must be really bad.

Honestly, I feel very sorry for the average Chinese citizen, who are victims of their government's "success at any cost" agenda.. Chinese people love their children just like we love ours, but I would never want to raise a child on Chinese soil given how polluted the land, air and water are..

i agree with you 100% on how bad the chinese have degraded their environment. the chinese authority has apparantly decided to quickly change course, on a official government doctrine area, but it will take decades if not centuries to totally clean up this mess. local corruption will hamper that even more. changing energy infrastructure wont happen over night either.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
#1 - learn to edit posts to add to them instead of making post after post.

#2 - Donate to Wikipedia. It's only fair as it makes up 90% of your posts.

#3 - LOL

honestly i kinda stopped listenign to the last several posts, so i didnt really care what i typed
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
I am anxiously waiting for a Chinese ship to be sunk by the US Navy. It'll be a wake-up call for them.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,955
8,681
136
I am anxiously waiting for a Chinese ship to be sunk by the US Navy. It'll be a wake-up call for them.

It would just make them spend a butt ton more on their military.

I'd rather everyone stopped waving their dicks at each other and tried to sort the problem out like adults.
 
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