U.S. Navy-China showdown: Chinese try to halt U.S. cruiser in international waters

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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Yup, when others do it, it is considered genocide or whatever word they want to use. When we do it, it's because of necessity. North America, South America, much of Russia, Australia, New Zealand have been colonized by destroying the native populations of those areas. But because the perpetrators have been Westerners, the ones who write the history books and stuff, the excuses are endless - discovery of new worlds, discover of this or that, etc. Yeah, discovery.

We call it 'Manifest-destiny', which makes it sound pious and inevitable.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
So WelshBloke, you're saying that people aren't really listening to others opinions and are just sort of talking to themselves?

Talking to themselves and ignoring others? What would the point in posting be?

I'm sure nobody here would be idiotic as to waste their time doing that.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Ah sorry
How does the Quing Dynasty fit into this thread?

The other poster talked about china just took back what were theirs hundreds of years ago. I provided history facts to shred his statements into pieces. I did not mention anything about me or my family, not sure why you even brough it (my family fought for America) up.


Again, reading is good for you.

Keep playing game/dumb will not work with me.
 
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Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
The other poster talked about china just took back what were theirs hundreds of years ago. I provided facts to shred his statements into pieces.


Again, reading is good for you.

Keep playing game/dumb will not work with me.

You kind of come off as a recent immigrant from somewhere that had its ass handed to them by China.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
You kind of come off as a recent immigrant from somewhere that had its ass handed to them by China.

See my previous post above about history of china and how they being pwned in the butt hard by multiple adversaries = http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35855186&postcount=173

You were saying something about ass handled?

Anything you want to spew out that totally unrelated to the thread?

You sound like a clueless fool that has no knowlege of Asian history so keep open your mouth wide, insert foot.
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
You kind of come off as a recent immigrant from somewhere that had its ass handed to them by China.

Well, to be honest, I cannot think of a single people outside China that loves the Chinese. Not Russia (many wars, ideological rivalry during Cold War, apprehensions about heavy population on Chinese border next to empty Russia space); not N. Korea (NK government kills women who become impregnated by Chinese men or force them to have abortions); not India (historical rival, wars fought); not Japan (historical rival, deep-seated animosity; not Vietnam (formerly occupied by China for 1000 years, deep-seated hatred)...and the list goes on. So, I doubt whether or not his country fighting with China would have anything to do with him not liking the country. No one likes them.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
See my previous post above about history of china and how they being pwned in the butt hard by multiple adversaries = http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35855186&postcount=173

You were saying something about ass handled?

Anything you want to spew out that totally unrelated to the thread?

You sound like a clueless fool that has no knowlege of Asian history so keep open your mouth wide, insert foot.

I think your missing a bunch of words and some misspelling in that post, I can't really understand you
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
We're China's biggest trade partner. What they do internationally, even domestically to some extent, is literally our business.

We also agreed to protect Japan in exchange for their de-militarization, after saving China's ass from Japan I might add. You really want them to re-militarize? Because with the disparity in technology it would be WWII all over again in a conventional war. Hell Chinese people would probably welcome Japanese rule after a few months of occupation, nowadays they'd live better lives than they do under Chinese control.

And why don't you respond to any difficult questions other posters have made? Is it because China's educational system is based on rote memorization, so that when you're given a question that requires actual thought you freeze up like a deer in the headlights? Sadly enough that question isn't completely sarcastic, I've seen it in more than a few Chinese exchange students.

/thread
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
I'm sure if we tried, we could start to understand each other

Unless you want to talk about US and china and things going on in Asia (things that are related to this thread), I have nothing to talk about with you or want to understand you.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Well, to be honest, I cannot think of a single people outside China that loves the Chinese. Not Russia (many wars, ideological rivalry during Cold War, apprehensions about heavy population on Chinese border next to empty Russia space); not N. Korea (NK government kills women who become impregnated by Chinese men or force them to have abortions); not India (historical rival, wars fought); not Japan (historical rival, deep-seated animosity; not Vietnam (formerly occupied by China for 1000 years, deep-seated hatred)...and the list goes on. So, I doubt whether or not his country fighting with China would have anything to do with him not liking the country. No one likes them.

Some truth in this I'm sure, but here's something I learned after living in a dorm for a couple of years with a bunch of grad students mostly from Asia.

Everyone *hates* Japan. Esp Chinese and Koreans.

Asians in general are very ethnic concious; for the most part, they don't like each other.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
Talking to themselves and ignoring others? What would the point in posting be?

I'm sure nobody here would be idiotic as to waste their time doing that.

Well you seem far too intelligent for that, and frankly way too damn sexy.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Some truth in this I'm sure, but here's something I learned after living in a dorm for a couple of years with a bunch of grad students mostly from Asia.

Everyone *hates* Japan. Esp Chinese and Koreans.

Asians in general are very ethnic concious; for the most part, they don't like each other.

Seriously doubt that "everyone" hate Japan. Japan has been a model citizen since the end of WWII. It is a well-liked nation. But China and Korea do hate the country, mainly for historical reasons. Also, your observation may be bias since most of the "Asians" that are in grad study are Chinese and Koreans. Indians do not hate Japan...
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Seriously doubt that "everyone" hate Japan. Japan has been a model citizen since the end of WWII. It is a well-liked nation. But China and Korea do hate the country, mainly for historical reasons. Also, your observation may be bias since most of the "Asians" that are in grad study are Chinese and Koreans. Indians do not hate Japan...

Point taken about India, I was mostly thinking of Asian in terms of Oriental races.

You are correct that Koreans and Chinese have a strong dislike of Japan. So do most asian island countries, like the Phillipines. Japan is well liked in the west, not in the east.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Point taken about India, I was mostly thinking of Asian in terms of Oriental races.

You are correct that Koreans and Chinese have a strong dislike of Japan. So do most asian island countries, like the Phillipines. Japan is well liked in the west, not in the east.

Have you ever been to the Philippines or Indonesia? I don't think you know these people as well as you claim you do. Even the Taiwanese like Japan. Korea and China do not like the Japanese because Japan has a long history of invasion and tension with those two nations. Other countries in East/South Asia, not so much.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Here is an article that talks about why China's foreign policy is so erratic.

link

China’s Contradictory Foreign Policy


Why does China undermine its patient diplomacy with sudden announcements like the ADIZ?

China’s decision to impose an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over a large part of the East China Sea has heightened tensions in an already volatile area, and appears to have dashed Japanese hope for a thaw in relations. The brouhaha that accompanied the announcement of the ADIZ was not so much about China’s legitimate right to set up such a zone as it was about the unilateral and bullish way it was imposed.

The ADIZ is the latest in a series of Chinese actions that combined seem to show a contradiction in the way the Asian giant engages its neighbors. This contradiction undermines Beijing’s diplomatic outreach to its immediate neighbors. Take ASEAN, where China appeared to have largely succeeded in building an image of a peaceful partner in a region torn between the fear of an assertive giant up North and the temptation of doing business with the world’s second economy, at a time of growing uncertainty about U.S. reliability in this part of the world. China was even able to form an economic partnership with Vietnam, a historical foe and long-time adversary in a territorial spat over the Spratly Islands.

This is where the contradiction begins. While in recent months Chinese President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang have mounted a charm offensive in Southeast Asia, the painstakingly built image of Chinese goodwill in Southeast Asia literally evaporated overnight following the inelegant Chinese response to Typhoon Haiyan in Philippines. It did not help neither when, after hurriedly dispatching a People’s Liberation Army Navy hospital ship in response to worldwide criticism, China also chose to dispatch its new aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, to the South China Sea, scene of multiple maritime disputes with Southeast Asian countries.

ASEAN leaders visited Tokyo for a December 13 summit commemorating the 40th anniversary of Japan-ASEAN friendship. The Chinese ADIZ could not have come at a better time for the 10 ASEAN leaders to assess the Chinese threat, as they flew by – if not through – the new zone on their way to Tokyo.

A Honeymoon Ended

An unexpected victim of China’s ADIZ is its newly acquired friendship with South Korea. United by their shared resentment of Japan’s nationalist leader Shinzo Abe, these two neighbors embarked five months ago on a rapid political and economic rapprochement. The Sino-South Korean “honeymoon,” unthinkable during the Cold War, has left Japan in total isolation in its neighborhood and constitutes a headache for the U.S., which has no interest in seeing the rift widen between its two most important allies in Northeast Asia.

In June, South Korean President Park Geun-hye even broke with long-held diplomatic tradition by making a landmark visit to China before visiting Japan.

However, subsequent developments, such as China’s slowing economic growth, a lingering territorial feud, mutual mistrust on mainly security issues, and China’s apparent failure to keep a check on North Korea, have since contributed to cooling the ardor, prompting South Koreans to begin to have second thoughts about their new friendship.

The recklessness with which China established its ADIZ, which not only overlaps South Korea’s own but also covers the Ieodo islet in the Yellow Sea, which is claimed by South Korea as its territory, infuriated the South Koreans. This has in turn allowed some in Japan to hope that a shared security concern might yet end up driving the South Koreans back to their more traditional friends in Japan.

A Détente Stymied

China’s ties with Japan have, of course, been rocky for some time. But a closer look reveals that Beijing has in recent months offered multiple discreet signals that it might be willing to explore the possibility of a thaw. Those signals include the high-level reception accorded in Beijing to a delegation of 100 Japanese top business leaders, a forum in Beijing of influential personalities (such as journalists and former senior high officials) from both countries in an attempt to break the ice, meetings of retired military officials from the two countries eager to find ways to avoid a disastrous armed conflict, press reports of a secret visit to Tokyo by a high-ranking Chinese official, instructions given to journalists not to overplay anti-Japanese sentiment in their articles, and a quiet clampdown on the production of popular but excessively anti-Japanese TV dramas.

Japan also reciprocated. Despite his nationalistic tendencies, Abe has refrained from visiting the controversial Yasukuni Shrine, where war criminals are worshipped alongside other war victims. He also went out of his way to honor a Chinese student who rescued a drowning child in Japan. And a delegation of Chinese business leaders was also given VIP treatment when they visited Japan last month.

As in the case of ASEAN, all this fragile and delicate buildup of goodwill towards a possible Sino-Japanese détente literally collapsed overnight with the announcement of the ADIZ.

The fact that the new zone covers the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands has only added to the sense of crisis and Sinophobia already bubbling in Japan. Some observers suggest that China has in fact done Abe a favor. For months, the Japanese leader has been trying to convince a reluctant nation to give him almost a blank check (such as a controversial state secrecy bill) to drastically beef up both internal security control (a nightmare for democracy advocates) and Japan’s military capabilities. Thanks to Beijing, Abe now has a much more acquiescent parliament.

The Roots of Contradiction

This contradiction in China’s foreign policy can be blamed on multiple factors, including a need to divert attention away from social instability at home and political rivalry among different leadership factions, especially after the recent Third Plenum. It can also be explained by the particular role of the People’s Liberation Army in China.

For instance, the ADIZ may not necessarily reflect the will of China’s top leadership. As a recent Wall Street Journal article rightly noted, the strange lack of enthusiasm in the way Chinese official press deals with the Chinese ADIZ issue seems to support the view that the top leadership in Beijing did not necessarily want this.

As in other countries, the Chinese leadership is not immune to factional divisions and power grabs. When it comes to foreign policy, there is a constant seesaw game between those striving for a “peaceful rise” and those advocating for more assertive behavior to remind the world that China is no longer the Sleeping Giant.

The particular status of the PLA as an “Army of the Party” (not of the State) guarantees it a special influence in the way the Party and the nation are run. In this respect, taming the PLA has always been a sensitive political priority of the highest degree for any leader in Communist China.

The Third Plenum in November produced a string of landmark reforms. Perhaps the most notable calls for the creation of a State Security Committee (SSC) to coordinate and oversee foreign and security policies.

It is understandable that different factions within the Party and the government, including those in the PLA, are engaged in a fierce fight to secure advantageous positions within this powerful new apparatus. The sudden announcement of the Chinese ADIZ may have been a byproduct of this fight for influence, in the sense that hawkish elements within the PLA may have wanted to put on a show of force both for internal political appeal and for international standing.

In another, less remarked aspect, there is also an economic side to the behavior of the PLA. Namely, some officials may, without actually going to war, want to maintain a heightened state of tension with Japan and America.

In his 1961 farewell address to the nation, U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower famously warned of the powerful military-industrial complex in America. Subsequent American history has only underlined his prescience.

In today’s China too, there is a powerful military-industrial complex comprising mainly State-run enterprises. The People’s Liberation Army itself is to some extent a huge business and industrial complex with vested interests in military and other domains. As in America, these vested interests tend to do well when there is heightened international tension
.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Here is an article that talks about why China's foreign policy is so erratic.

link

Legitimate or not, I agree the ADIZ move is idiotic on Chinese part. It's simply a result of Chinese military faction trying to show who is in charge and make some noise with a major move like that. Those stupid military hardliner obviously didn't consult with the diplomats, and didn't consider the over all interest of the country.

But hey, China is not the only country with bunch of hardliners only watch for their own interest. I am sure you can find a few groups here in the US.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Legitimate or not, I agree the ADIZ move is idiotic on Chinese part. It's simply a result of Chinese military faction trying to show who is in charge and make some noise with a major move like that. Those stupid military hardliner obviously didn't consult with the diplomats, and didn't consider the over all interest of the country.

But hey, China is not the only country with bunch of hardliners only watch for their own interest. I am sure you can find a few groups here in the US.

Big difference between the US and China is that, ultimately, the US Military answers to the civilian government in theory and in practice. In China, the military run their own companies (corporations, not units) and answer only to the Communist party, not the Chinese government. In fact, PLA is directly run by the military wing of the Communist Party, not by anyone in their Defense Department. China's Defense Department is meant to deal with foreign powers. It itself holds no real power and sits outside the powerful Standing Committee. This makes the PLA a dangerous entity that is, literally, privately run.
 
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