U.S. No Health Care 10-15 GOP based Medicare plan squanders $15 billion in 2007

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SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
But younger companies have the burden of developing highly advanced technology from scratch, and dealing with companies who have been market leaders for decades.
The old companies have a huge advantage. And it's not society's fault these big companies went overboard on their benifits. They offered compensation for their service, they have to live up to that. Not offload it on gov't.

That's fine if you don't mind them going out of business and losing both jobs and benefits.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Stunt
But younger companies have the burden of developing highly advanced technology from scratch, and dealing with companies who have been market leaders for decades.
The old companies have a huge advantage. And it's not society's fault these big companies went overboard on their benifits. They offered compensation for their service, they have to live up to that. Not offload it on gov't.

That's fine if you don't mind them going out of business and losing both jobs and benefits.
Or if you remember that pension funds are supposed to be funded properly, not after the fact like most SS programs.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: nergee
Last year alone GM recalled 10.4 million vehicles....

:shocked: Yesterday the GM Blazer was ranked as the highest fatalities.


Sounds like the Production lines must be stopped on the spot and GM shut down due to safety issue alone. They've obviously been allowed to get away with a lot of crap I'm sure by paying off the Politicians they already own.

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
GM has to keep up with Ford and the tire blowouts

Supertool:
If GM properly financed their signed and predicted benifits, there would be no problem.
I still strongly believe that older companies have a HUGE advantage over emerging companies, especially automotive!
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Hell isn't most their money made from financing vehicles?...you'd think they could properly finance friggin benifts!
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Also, GM suffers from corporate mismanagement. They have money tied up in Subaru, a partnership which has produced only one product in several years, the Saab 92X that was a huge flop. And that's nothing compared to their disastrous tieup with Fiat in which they lost billions, and gained nothing

Well, if they did more than put a Saab sticker on a WRX, maybe they would have done better
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
The big 3 derive 80% of their profit from big trucks and SUVs. 80%! Their inability to pay attention to fuel prices trending higher over the last few years is now hitting them where it hurts.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
0
It has nothing to do with the cars, sales, or the economy. It is another case of Unions making themselves obsolete. Union guarantees (expensie ones) have run more than one major US manufactuerer out of business and they won't stop until they can do the same with the auto industry. In most plants, GM pays people more to do the work than they could realistically buy the parts for. $27/hr to make spark plugs - I mean press a button that makes 1/1000 of one. Then expect full pay and health benefits to follow you until the day you die, don't forget about 401k mathing, family benefits, credit deals, etc...

And people wonder why jobs are moving overseas. If I was GM there would be no one that I would have given into the Unions.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: irwincur
It has nothing to do with the cars, sales, or the economy. It is another case of Unions making themselves obsolete. Union guarantees (expensie ones) have run more than one major US manufactuerer out of business and they won't stop until they can do the same with the auto industry. In most plants, GM pays people more to do the work than they could realistically buy the parts for. $27/hr to make spark plugs - I mean press a button that makes 1/1000 of one. Then expect full pay and health benefits to follow you until the day you die, don't forget about 401k mathing, family benefits, credit deals, etc...

And people wonder why jobs are moving overseas. If I was GM there would be no one that I would have given into the Unions.

Actually, the most important job of an assembly line worker is to be alert and notice when something is wrong. I think Henry Ford called is credited with inventing, or at least popularizing, efficiency wages, and claimed that increasing wages saved him a fortune in defect-related product failure.

If I'm not mistaken, Chrysler still has one of the best per vehicle labour costs in the industry, despite 'all that union crap'.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com

Goodbye to American jobs at GM, just like I said would happen and the P&N experts said would never happen:


3-20-2005 GM to Cut N.American White-Collar Workers

General Motors Corp. plans to cut its North American white-collar work force, the Wall Street Journal reported on its Web site on Sunday, less than a week after the automaker warned that 2005 earnings would fall short of its target.

The cuts in salaried staff could be as deep as 28 percent

 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: alent1234
people are buying cars, just not GM

This is what happens when unions decide they want free healthcare for life. It costs GM almost $2000 per car to provide retirement benefits. Too bad consumers don't want to pay it.

Not to mention paying thousands of people salary + benefits to not work. Gotta love those unions.

Text
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: irwincur
It has nothing to do with the cars, sales, or the economy. It is another case of Unions making themselves obsolete. Union guarantees (expensie ones) have run more than one major US manufactuerer out of business and they won't stop until they can do the same with the auto industry. In most plants, GM pays people more to do the work than they could realistically buy the parts for. $27/hr to make spark plugs - I mean press a button that makes 1/1000 of one. Then expect full pay and health benefits to follow you until the day you die, don't forget about 401k mathing, family benefits, credit deals, etc...

And people wonder why jobs are moving overseas. If I was GM there would be no one that I would have given into the Unions.

Actually, the most important job of an assembly line worker is to be alert and notice when something is wrong. I think Henry Ford called is credited with inventing, or at least popularizing, efficiency wages, and claimed that increasing wages saved him a fortune in defect-related product failure.

If I'm not mistaken, Chrysler still has one of the best per vehicle labour costs in the industry, despite 'all that union crap'.


it's actually toyota

Go pick up a copy of The Toyota Way at the bookstore or the library
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
Originally posted by: dannybin1742
This is what happens when unions decide they want free healthcare for life. It costs GM almost $2000 per car to provide retirement benefits. Too bad consumers don't want to pay it.


noooo..... this is what happens when gm doens't have any fuel efficient cars on the road and spends the last 6 years designing suvs when they should be designing cars that can compete with a camry/civic/accord/corrola in gas mileage

they also have no hybrid cars, and their cars don't last nearly as long as toyota or hondas

the honda deal and toyota dealer here in town can't keep thier hybrids on the lot for test drives because they are selling like hotcakes, as are all their high milage cars, you can't beat 5 year 100k powertrain/tranny and 3 year full car warranty


stop blaming unions

how much hybrids were sold last year compared to the entire car market?

I'll give yo ua hint, the percentage is very small and toyota and honda are still losing money on every hybrid they sell

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
hmm wouldn't have to do with cranking out gas-hog SUV's would it, naaah.
They had their chance to be a early adopter of alternative fuel, hopefully the workers and union lynch the ceo management types
who were in bed with the oilvamp chimp in the whitehouse.
Fools so worried about their image and profit and so gung-ho about setting up such irresponsible and short sighted production runs of gas guzzling giants.
Another sign the neocons did not see the Iraqis fighting back for their country.
Another bush failure and daddy can't bail him out of this one.
It would be nice to see the GM union workers make a very limited edition run -the last gas-guzzling SUV made: upholstered with genuine chimp skin. :shocked:
 

Bozo Galora

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 1999
7,271
0
0
There is a lot more at stake here than just GM.
One night you will go to sleep fairly happy and reasonably secure.
Yes gas prices will be high, and you had to pay too much for a house, but you can still live a pretty decent life.
You will wake up in the morning to a completely different world.
A new dark age - a hell on Earth.
With bank hollidays, perhaps a new currency.
America will become Argentina overnight.
My grandfather went 5 years wiithout a job during the Great Depression.
Coming to a city near you.
$700 Billion dollar trade deficits
$437 Billion dollar budget deficits, plus $150 Billion stolen from SS = $587 Billion
$7.4 Trillion Debt to the Fed Reserve
And the whole planet hating America.
Your world will be rocked - sooner or later
Enjoy yourself whilst you can.

The Death of the Dollar
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/hommel031805.html
Jason Hommel

Ceasar was supposed to be a god.
Julias Caesar was killed
on the Ides of March (March 15th)

Today, we don't make men gods. Instead society has made our financial system into a false god.

On March 15th, 2005, (the ides of March) we may have just witnessed the beginning of the death of our financial system as General Motors stock took a nosedive from $34/share down to $30.

It does not seem like much (GM down just over 10% in one day), but as of March 17th, the stock is down to $28.35, and the market cap is down to $16 billion. (GM is down nearly 18% for the week.) It's the type of volatility that we usually only see in silver stocks!

What does this mean?

GM's stock price decline is like a dagger right into the heart of the U.S. financial system, and the dollar itself!

Why did it happen?

Apparently, someone in power did the equivalent of shouting "the emperor has no clothes" and people woke up, and are beginning to see more clearly! The media decided it was time to expose the truth that GM is nearly insolvent, and will expect to lose $1.50/share in the first quarter alone!

But the story is worse than that! GM has $300 billion in debt http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GM

...and has a market cap, now, of $16 billion. See the problem there? The bondholders could buy the company nearly 20 times over if they used their money to buy stock instead of loan it to the company. The implication is clear--that GM is headed towards bankruptcy, and will default on the bondholders, who will then own a company worth less than $16 billion dollars!

For every one point that interest rates rise, refinancing GM's debt will cost an additional $3 billion in annual interest payments -- money that they clearly do not have! Where is GM going to get another $3 to $6 to $9 billion as interest rates rise by 1%, 2%, and 3% more? Selling cars? Nope. Selling stock? Unlikely in this market! Borrowing more? From whom? The U.S. government itself is propping up this bond market, and there are no buyers even for U.S. bonds, and there haven't been for months now!

So, therefore, GM will soon be a $300 billion dollar blow-up!

How big is that? It's bigger than Enron, Global Crossing, LTCM, K-Mart, and the IRAQ war all put together!

$300 billion going belly up is a big enough event to topple the U.S. government! How so? It will shake the confidence in the entire financial system. Companies as big as GM are not supposed to go bankrupt in our "normal" world. They are "supposed" to be "too big to fail".

The value of the "official" U.S. gold hoard of 261 million oz., at $440/oz. is only a mere $115 billion.

See what this $300 billion blow-up will mean? Imagine the financial chaos as a pile of wealth almost three times larger than the current value of the U.S. "official" gold hoard evaporates!

The annual deficit is around $700 billion. How will the U.S. government sell bonds to finance the deficit if bondholders are getting wiped out?

If the government can't sell bonds while running a deficit, then the government must simply be printing money to fund the deficit--and they are, as can be seen in the rate of growth of the money supply, M3! Therefore, inflation is raging, and interest rates must keep pace, which is why GM is doomed!

Interest rates must head up, as confidence in the U.S. dollar bond market will be shaken like a tree in a hurricane!

Foreign nations are all sounding the alarm already that they will be selling U.S. bonds to diversify the holdings of their central banks: Russia, India, China, South Korea, Japan... what major foreign nation is left to buy them?

A Tsunami of dollar selling is about to begin, and will make the recent dollar decline seem like a small bump in the road.

It may take a few months for this to play out. You may have time to buy silver at under $10/oz. for a few more weeks or months. But after GM declares bankruptcy, which may take between 3 months to a year, get ready for the dollar to crash by more than 90% in the following 6-12 months.

Germany's hyperinflation in the 1930's took about a year and a half. Recently, Argentina's took place nearly overnight. Who knows which way the dollar will die, whether a quick death, or a more slow and painful one?

Either way, the dollar is dead.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
^^extreme pesimist with very weak knowledge of economics
(how long were you waiting to get that crazy theory off your chest?)
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
GM might have $300 billion in debt, but it also has close to that in receivables

GMAC is one of the largest mortgage lenders in the US

GM needs to spin off the auto division and let it live on it's own without being subsidized by GMAC
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
GM has gone crazy during the past 2 years. They've come out with a whole bunch of different car names. Popular sellers like the Buick Lesabre, Grand Am, Grand Prix, etc... all have different names. The Chevy line practically changed the name of every model. Anyway, I only buy GM and only buy American. You guys can drive your cute little Japanese cars.

We'll keep getting our well designed and built japanese cars (which are often made right here in the USA) while you drive your American junker, which has a startling large chance of being built in *Canada* or *Mexico*.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
There has been no "shift to fuel efficient vehicles". Car sales for all automakers either stay flat or keep going down, and truck sales keep climbing. Toyota and Honda sell hybrids in numbers that are insignificant in the market place.

GM short-sightedly spent a wad on long-term alternative energy. High gas costs will only help them in the long run. Unfortunately their short term outlook is bleak because they have no transition product. Oh, look, the foreign competition all saw these gas shortages coming and adjusted production accordingly. Even with the tariff that the U.S. puts on foreign cars they cannot compete. Chrysler couldn't handle it and it took Daimler to correct their bad management. GM and Ford should have been absorbed by foreign companies long ago.

This is all crap. All the Japs are making sales gains on account of truck products. The market share of trucks in the market place against cars keeps climbing. GM's mistake is that the last few years they mostly devoted to new car products, when they should have been updating their trucks, especially their big trucks.

Also, GM suffers from corporate mismanagement. They have money tied up in Subaru, a partnership which has produced only one product in several years, the Saab 92X that was a huge flop. And that's nothing compared to their disastrous tieup with Fiat in which they lost billions, and gained nothing.

26 percent of Americans are interested in buying a Hybrid

Is that what you consider "insignificant in the marketplace" ?

Toyota has overtaken Ford as the #2 automaker on EARTH

You're right that GM is plagued by bad mismanagement. ALL of the American car companies are, and you can tell by their resistance to CHANGE. They refuse to create more efficient vehicles--truck or car--and they are suffering for it. I say let them suffer, rot, whither and die like they deserve if they can't figure out a way to make a truck fuel-efficient.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
It has nothing to do with the cars, sales, or the economy. It is another case of Unions making themselves obsolete. Union guarantees (expensie ones) have run more than one major US manufactuerer out of business and they won't stop until they can do the same with the auto industry. In most plants, GM pays people more to do the work than they could realistically buy the parts for. $27/hr to make spark plugs - I mean press a button that makes 1/1000 of one. Then expect full pay and health benefits to follow you until the day you die, don't forget about 401k mathing, family benefits, credit deals, etc...

And people wonder why jobs are moving overseas. If I was GM there would be no one that I would have given into the Unions.

You're right and wrong: it DOES have a lot to do with the cars, the sales AND the economy, but it's safe to say that their union guarantees aren't helping matters. If they don't fight back the Unions, let them fall victim to their own arogance. We won't lose much by losing the US car companies.

Jason
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
We won't lose much by losing the US car companies.

Interesting, when I said that 2 years ago I was jumped all over in here.

No effect huh?

Hmmmmm, with GM one of the U.S. biggest Companies and on the Stock Market too.
 

Bozo Galora

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 1999
7,271
0
0
I occasionaly throw something out here just to see the very predictable response.
You people really believe in this virtual reality of "America The Great", and the wonders of Capitalism, and it's ability to somehow overcome all negative outcomes.
You folks have a rationalization for everything.
Anything that intrudes on your perfect little world is instantly rejected, not even considered.
And thats why, when that piano falls on your head, I will gleefully jump up and down, laughing like a hyena.
Because, you see, in the nature of things, stupidity comes with very harsh rewards.
Dream on.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: alent1234
GM might have $300 billion in debt, but it also has close to that in receivables

GMAC is one of the largest mortgage lenders in the US

GM needs to spin off the auto division and let it live on it's own without being subsidized by GMAC
Worst idea ever.
The only reason people buy the cars is because of the financing and the ability to sell cars below cost and pay through maintenance and loans.
They are integral businesses, and GM would not be able to compete with the other makers if they separated the two.
 
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