U.S.: We will stop aid to Palestinians if UN bid proceeds

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Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
Why should Israel have to tolerate the rockets being tossed at Israel in the first place.
The alternatives are rockets now and peace later, or rockets now and rockets later. Which sounds better?
They may not hit anything of significance; but that is not for lack of trying.
Israel has been retaliating, not initiating.
LOLOLOL.
The militant groups want to keep the tensions high so as to not have a peace process.
Indeed. Both radical islamists and radical zionists have advocated genocide against the other side, but fortunately the Israeli majority keeps their zealots in check, and the islamists are powerless whether in power or not. What remains is for the Israeli majority to recognize that they have to act unilaterally. Way back Israel would have had a more structured and moderate counterparty to negotiate with. But since the Israeli government was never particularly concerned about peace, kept fucking with the Palestinians and outright smashing their leadership, they now have a stirred-up nest of angry hornets on their hands, and no single party has the ability to immediately stop all the stinging. The nest doesn't get any better by poking at it some more, or debating whether the hornets originally stung first.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
The nest doesn't get any better by poking at it some more, or debating whether the hornets originally stung first.

Whether they did or didn't sting first, they're still hornets, and the rest of the world won't mind if they get sprayed with nerve gas so they'll stop annoying human beings.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Wasn't the creation of a palestinian state the stated objective over the last 5 years. Isnt that why they had elections? I would not characterize myself as a palestinian symphasizer. Instead, I think they need to concentrate on the terrorists and not the general palestinian population. Then following the money and support for terrorism is what is important. If that means Isreal needs to attack Iran, then maybe that is what needs to happen. These rockets come from somewhere, so attack the providers of the arms.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Wasn't the creation of a palestinian state the stated objective over the last 5 years. Isnt that why they had elections? I would not characterize myself as a palestinian symphasizer. Instead, I think they need to concentrate on the terrorists and not the general palestinian population. Then following the money and support for terrorism is what is important. If that means Isreal needs to attack Iran, then maybe that is what needs to happen. These rockets come from somewhere, so attack the providers of the arms.
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Piasabird, I have to ask why you mumble only 5 years, when the whole Oslo process of land for peace dates dates back at least 20 Years.

With the whole idea of Oslo was that Israelis and Palestinians could come to some mutual peace agreement, and once that mutual agreement happened it was better than the larger world imposing a settlement on both Israeli and Palestinians because both sides would react with violence if the solution was externally imposed rather than mutually negotiated.

There is some logic in that reasoning, but when zero progress has occurred in 20 years along those lines, its time to admit its led no where. As Israel blames the Pals and the Pals blame Israel. As the mutual blame game gets us no where.

But what we fail to see, in this 20 year waste of time, is that only Israel benefits by stalling as they talk and talk and keep illegally settling on land Israel cannot own. Which is why, the larger world must at a minimum impose an Israeli settlement freeze which will benefit neither side as the can gets kicked down the road.

But by now, the larger world is totally convinced its the Israelis who are in the wrong, and why not just approve a Palestinian State in the UN general assembly. And tell Israel to retreat to its 1967 borders and be done with it.
 
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Chaosblade02

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
304
0
0
Its really hard for me to have any sympathy for Israel. Considering they just keep taking more and more Palestinian land as time goes on. Terrorism goes on by both parties, but in the end the Palestinian people are the ones getting the short straw.

I think we should not only be cutting aid to Palestine, but the aid we are giving Israel. Which is more than we give to any other country, and they don't even really need it.

There is some justification for them to hate the US, after all we are giving Israel the bombs and fighter jets and other weapons to suppress the Palestinians. They have every reason to hate the US government, if I was in their shoes I would hate us too.

The land they now call Israel was originally Palestine. It was not right for the world to get involved and decide to take away land from one group and give it to another. There won't be peace in this region, ever because one side will always have the intention of taking more and more, while the other will resist in any way they can. But the Palestinians are always the ones to be made out as the villains according to most American media, which is not true at all. The Palestinians don't have tanks, fighter jets and cruse missiles to fight back with.

 
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badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
91
Its really hard for me to have any sympathy for Israel. Considering they just keep taking more and more Palestinian land as time goes on. Terrorism goes on by both parties, but in the end the Palestinian people are the ones getting the short straw.

I think we should not only be cutting aid to Palestine, but the aid we are giving Israel. Which is more than we give to any other country, and they don't even really need it.

There is some justification for them to hate the US, after all we are giving Israel the bombs and fighter jets and other weapons to suppress the Palestinians. They have every reason to hate the US government, if I was in their shoes I would hate us too.

The land they now call Israel was originally Palestine. It was not right for the world to get involved and decide to take away land from one group and give it to another. There won't be peace in this region, ever because one side will always have the intention of taking more and more, while the other will resist in any way they can. But the Palestinians are always the ones to be made out as the villains according to most American media, which is not true at all. The Palestinians don't have tanks, fighter jets and cruse missiles to fight back with.

Pretty much this. You go into another persons land and take it over, when they retaliate you label them as terrorists....WTF? There will never be peace in this region unless we can make a fair split of the land. This maybe a tough pill to swallow for Israel but they are going to have to give up some land.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
In maybe the biggest piece of Nertanyuhu chutzpah bullshit, Israel asks to delay the publication of the Palmer report past early September. And unlike the link claims, it may be that the Palmer report legitimized the right of Israel to maintain a blockade of Gaza, but the Palmer report was extremely critical of Israeli storm trooper tactics.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=235755

But asking Obama to try to further delay the publication for another six months so Netanyuhu can be more popular in six months, sounds like sheer Obama stupidity to me.

Because Obama would be better off doing nothing, and letting Bozo Netanyuhu fall of his own weight, especially after Netanyuhu insulted Obama and refused a settlement freeze. As Netanyuhu somehow thinks he will avoid Israeli political blame for being the most idiotic PM in the history of Israel. The only one Netanyuhu fooled is himself as he was convinced he was so clever and that anyone believed him.
 

Chaosblade02

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
304
0
0
Pretty much this. You go into another persons land and take it over, when they retaliate you label them as terrorists....WTF? There will never be peace in this region unless we can make a fair split of the land. This maybe a tough pill to swallow for Israel but they are going to have to give up some land.

This is one of the reasons I hate Fox News, they are so blatantly one sided toward Israel, and frequently distort the facts about the entire situation over there.

Palestinians are basically prisoners in their own country.

 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
This is one of the reasons I hate Fox News, they are so blatantly one sided toward Israel, and frequently distort the facts about the entire situation over there.

Palestinians are basically prisoners in their own country.


It's not their country. If they would have won the fights they started, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in. Fuck 'em.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Every day Israel is occupying the Palestinian lands, treating them second class, restricting everything from their water to road access, is initiating.

And given that the Palestinians initially sought the destruction of Israel at birth has no bearing. Israel fought to survive against the Palestinians and the Arabs.

The Palestinians took the loosing side multiple times and finally were abandoned by their allies. Land that the Arabs previously controlled was lost in combat but handed over by the Arabs to the Palestinians when it was no longer under the Arab control. When it was under Arab control; there was no though of a Palestinian state.

Both sides have made mistakes; the majority have been fro the Palestinians who are still willing to act as puppets.

Getting a state will be the worst that will happen to them. There will be an incident manufactured from Gazaand then Israel will have every right with no restrictions to retaliate.

Plenty of legal international precedent. State against state.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
This is one of the reasons I hate Fox News, they are so blatantly one sided toward Israel, and frequently distort the facts about the entire situation over there.

Palestinians are basically prisoners in their own country.


They started the fight multiple times against Israel and lost. both standing side by side with the Arabs and then afterwards. Everytime they start a fight and get their asses whupped; they go crying to the UN for help and make promises to never do such again. Those promises have been not worth the paper written on.

The Arab nations kept them prisoners and forced them into camps.
the Arab nations could have since '48 supported statehood for the Palestinians - they did not. Why - to do so would acknowledge the right for Israel to exist.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Its really hard for me to have any sympathy for Israel. Considering they just keep taking more and more Palestinian land as time goes on. Terrorism goes on by both parties, but in the end the Palestinian people are the ones getting the short straw.

I think we should not only be cutting aid to Palestine, but the aid we are giving Israel. Which is more than we give to any other country, and they don't even really need it.

There is some justification for them to hate the US, after all we are giving Israel the bombs and fighter jets and other weapons to suppress the Palestinians. They have every reason to hate the US government, if I was in their shoes I would hate us too.

The land they now call Israel was originally Palestine. It was not right for the world to get involved and decide to take away land from one group and give it to another. There won't be peace in this region, ever because one side will always have the intention of taking more and more, while the other will resist in any way they can. But the Palestinians are always the ones to be made out as the villains according to most American media, which is not true at all. The Palestinians don't have tanks, fighter jets and cruse missiles to fight back with.

Because the Pals are the evil and fight dirty. They strap bombs to their bodies and try to fend off a better equipped force just like the primitive Vietnamese did with their hand grenades and bamboo booby traps.

Since the majority of the Zionists on this board believe that they are superior than the Pals, perhaps it would be best that the US government give the Pals the same weapons as the Jews or strip the Jews from their weapons and let the 2 of them fight to the death with bombs straps on their bodies. And, let the winner or lesser cowards take all.
 
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iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
It's not their country. If they would have won the fights they started, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in. Fuck 'em.
You are lucky that your USA master came to the rescue, other wise there wouldn't be an Israel in 1948 or at any time since then till now.
 

Oric

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
888
61
91
With all the hope of biblical stories that the second kingdom needs an israel on jerusalem much has been done to support israel to fend off Muslim extremism. The irony !
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Israel needs to either make Palestinians Israeli citizens or give them back their own state.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Because the Pals are the evil and fight dirty. They strap bombs to their bodies and try to fend off a better equipped force just like the primitive Vietnamese did with their hand grenades and bamboo booby traps.

And what should a group fighting a more powerful power oppressing them do?

Non-violent resistance is one option; it isn't that effective in some situations.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
And given that the Palestinians initially sought the destruction of Israel at birth has no bearing. Israel fought to survive against the Palestinians and the Arabs.

Ultimately, the place can't be both 'Israeli controlled' and 'Palestinian controlled'.

So yes, the same way as if a million Jews declared Manhattan to be their new Homeland and no longer part of the US, the US would pursue 'the destruction of that new country', the powers in the area sought not to have a new Jewish state created by outside forces in that location. You make that sound pretty terrible.

Who was terrible? People 'defending from having land taken for another group to form a new state', or the people creating that new state against the locals' wishes?

Locals who had been dealing with Western invasion, power-mongering, violence, creation of states to suit their interests at odds with the local people for a century?

Remember the mentality of the time - this was following decades of the west dominating the region for oil interests, shortly before incidents like the installation of a brutal dictator in Iran (the US helping the British) or the Suez crisis with Egypt (where even the US refused to side with Britain).

Shortly after the British had been doing things like building up the radical Islamicist groups to 'divide and conquer' the region fighting the nationalists.

If a bank robber took hostages and insisted on starting negotiations that it was his bank now, and any resolution had to recognize that, how far would that work?

Well, if he had a nuclear weapon, maybe he WOULD be given the bank. That's the sort of force used to 'settle' the issue of Israel - who has the power to get their way?

It's a messy situation any time you have two groups each with claims to a land.

The Palestinians took the loosing side multiple times and finally were abandoned by their allies. Land that the Arabs previously controlled was lost in combat but handed over by the Arabs to the Palestinians when it was no longer under the Arab control. When it was under Arab control; there was no though of a Palestinian state.

Your first comment is nothing more than 'might makes right'; your second is the 'two wrongs don't make a right' issue.

Let's say the arabs didn't treat the Palestinians right, and the Palestinians had legitimate grievances against them. Does that justify other wrongs?

Both sides have made mistakes; the majority have been fro the Palestinians who are still willing to act as puppets.

Sounds like mindless ideology to me, not based on facts, 'acting like puppets'.

Getting a state will be the worst that will happen to them. There will be an incident manufactured from Gazaand then Israel will have every right with no restrictions to retaliate.

Plenty of legal international precedent. State against state.

Hardly. Did the drug cartels killing the American in a lake or any other number of crimes 'give the US to retaliate with war'?

If the Palestinian state launched war against Israel, that would be another thing. If rockets were launched by independent groups, Israel could attack those people.

Maybe there could be some 'UN' type government or shared government put in place - where the co-exist - but neither side seems to want that. At least Israel doesn't, I think the Palestinians might be open to it. Israel does support a limited amount of including Palestinians - some are Israeli citizens - but it seems only as a minority, and where Israel keeps moving Palestinians out of Jerusalem bit by bit.

Normally this might be an issue for the UN to help with - the whole start of Israel being put back in that location goes back to the League of Nations - and the UN has been in the middle of it since first creating the plan for Israel after WWII - but it's compromised by the US using its veto over any plan basically.

The original plan was for the UN to control areas with Jerusalem - seems useful.

It's Israel who also has had hostility to the UN, saying 'UN peacekeepers will never be allowed on Israel controlled land', not just the UN sanctioning Israel.

The Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory have basically been an ongoing act of war for decades, always pushing for more Palestinian land.

Many of these settlers make the KKK look like schoolchildren in their armed hatred for Palestinians it seems.

Water provided only to Israelis, highways only for Israelis, and so on.

It's a hard situation but it seems Israel, with some reason, thinks time is on its side as it just gradually keeps gaining more land.

Some arab groups are also hardliners about Israel.

I'd think the US could play a useful role, allowing the UN to play one, to look for a negotiated agreement.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
Getting a state will be the worst that will happen to them. There will be an incident manufactured from Gazaand then Israel will have every right with no restrictions to retaliate.

Plenty of legal international precedent. State against state.

turkey bombed PKK bases in Iraq.
Did this cause a war?
no.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Isreali's already coexist with arabs and palestinians. Isreal gives all citizens voting rights. The problem is some people can not live in peace. Note: There are jewish terrorists also. In war if you take land, it belongs to you. When the palestinians planned to wipe out isreal and started wars, they should have realized this.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
Pretty much this. You go into another persons land and take it over, when they retaliate you label them as terrorists....WTF? There will never be peace in this region unless we can make a fair split of the land. This maybe a tough pill to swallow for Israel but they are going to have to give up some land.
just wondering, but how soon do you plan on turning your home over to a native american?
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Since the majority of the Zionists on this board believe that they are superior than the Pals, perhaps it would be best that the US government give the Pals the same weapons as the Jews or strip the Jews from their weapons and let the 2 of them fight to the death with bombs straps on their bodies. And, let the winner or lesser cowards take all.

What was the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War? Or do those not count because Israel won?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Getting a state will be the worst that will happen to them. There will be an incident manufactured from Gazaand then Israel will have every right with no restrictions to retaliate.

Plenty of legal international precedent. State against state.

turkey bombed PKK bases in Iraq.
Did this cause a war?
no.
no.
Was Turkey going after Iraq or terrorists in Iraq?

Here you would have the State of Palestine that has refused to acknowledged Israel right to exist attacking Israel itself. Israel then has every right to attack the State of Palestine in it's defense.

And based on Arab logic; has the right to attack even if not attacked, just because Palestine now exists.

My prediction which has a better chance of coming true than that of our residence sayer :hmm:
The second option will not happen.
The first will happen within 6 months of Palestine becoming a state unless there is a third party that is actively enforcing the borders not doing lip service like before.

Hamas is not going to give up control of Gaza for peace.
 
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