Ubisoft: AMD's Mantle API is a double-edged sword

[sontin]

Mantle allows the developers to use code they already written for the consoles though.

Even without support on the next consoles.

What next? Mantle allows developers to port OpenGL directly to Mantle? D:

 

[GaiaHunter]

Even without support on the next consoles.

What next? Mantle allows developers to port OpenGL directly to Mantle? D:

Mantle exists to use the code used on AMD hardware in the consoles on AMD hardware in the PC.

Any API has to interface with both the engine code and with the hardware.

Console hardware is AMD and that is the only console support AMD require.

Or are you denying Xbone and PS4 games work with AMD hardware and are optimized for AMD hardware?

 

[sontin]

Really, what? I can write C and cobol code and let them run on the same machine. But that does not mean that i can port it with one click to the one or other language.

Mantle is not on the next gen consoles. There is no 1:1 porting. Without hand optimizing Mantle is worthless.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Really, what? I can write C and cobol code and let them run on the same machine. But that does not mean that i can port it with one click to the one or other language.

Mantle is not on the next gen consoles. There is no 1:1 porting. Without hand optimizing Mantle is worthless.

An API isn't a language.

Games aren't written in DX or OpenGL.

Until now, console optimization couldn't be used in the PC because either the hardware architecture was different and/or there is no API (actually NVIDIA and AMD have their own but just aren't widely used for understandable reasons) in the PC market that allows low level access to the metal.

Many console optimizations are done at low level access close to the metal.

The metal is AMD.

Mantle is low level access to the metal.

The metal is AMD.

It is the same AMD metal - if you want to code at a low level against it, you are interfacing using the same code.

 

[Arkadrel]

Ubisoft has a deal with Nvidia atm, so its natural for them to show Mantle in a different light then what DICE says..

+ Ubisoft PR.
+ newly made Anandtech accounts, smearing Mantle (nvidia spin team?)

=

dead thread.


Lay on the hateing desprado, nice of you to make a new account to smear AMD.

 

[Genx87]

No dev worth their salt is going to leave performance on the table if it really is as significant as Mantle could very well deliver. That's why I believe we are seeing statements such as this, and others saying "we will have to support it". At worst it will light a fire under Microsoft, and force them to stop with the nonsense of artificially limited new versions of DX to their latest OS to try and force adoption.

Heh if this were true. Why do AMD and Nvidia have developer programs? You know the programs that come in an optimize code for their hardware? Devs will use the least path of resistance because it is the least cost of producing a video game. That is what I couldnt wrap my head around the hype behind mantle. It will require as Ubisoft said a seperate rendering path. Which means more debugging and cost to produce as well more cost to maintain after release. Given some of the shoddy performance by many games. It appears to me many devs dont do much more than basic optimization unless Nvidia or AMD do it for them.

We had Glide, glide died to a broader API DX. And I dont think it was because glide sucked or wasnt fast on 3dfx cards. But because developers wanted an API that made producing a game cost less and would work across multiple hardware vendors. Now we are to believe we are going back to the glide way of doing things?

 

[sontin]

An API isn't a language.

Games aren't written in DX or OpenGL.

Sure they are. What do you think HLSL or GLSL is? :\

Until now, console optimization couldn't be used in the PC because either the hardware architecture was different and/or there is no API (actually NVIDIA and AMD have their own but just aren't widely used for understandable reasons) in the PC market that allows low level access to the metal.

The xbox360 used the r600 architecture and the ps3 had a G70 derivative.

 

[tviceman]

http://www.techpowerup.com/192552/amd-explains-why-mantle-doesnt-work-on-xbox-one.html

AMD confirmed. Mantle is entirely their version of Glide. Mantle will never take off. Here is my take on how BF4 Mantle went down:

AMD : We want you to code BF4 in Mantle.
DICE : Why would we do that? DX version works just fine, it creates extra unnecessary work for us, and you have a minority in both dGPU and CPU share.
AMD : We will pay you $8 million dollars.
DICE : Ok.

AMD does not have enough money or software engineers to throw at developers. Mantle will never, ever get wide spread adoption. And for the titles that get Mantle, it will never get 100% dedication to take full advantage of. Mantle will be flopping like a fish out of water every bit as much as GPU physx.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Heh if this were true. Why do AMD and Nvidia have developer programs? You know the programs that come in an optimize code for their hardware? Devs will use the least path of resistance because it is the least cost of producing a video game. That is what I couldnt wrap my head around the hype behind mantle. It will require as Ubisoft said a seperate rendering path. Which means more debugging and cost to produce as well more cost to maintain after release. Given some of the shoddy performance by many games. It appears to me many devs dont do much more than basic optimization unless Nvidia or AMD do it for them.

We had Glide, glide died to a broader API DX. And I dont think it was because glide sucked or wasnt fast on 3dfx cards. But because developers wanted an API that made producing a game cost less and would work across multiple hardware vendors. Now we are to believe we are going back to the glide way of doing things?

AMD and Nvidia have developers programs to access the code used early, amongst other things.

Having that code early allows them to change their drivers to extract more performance than the one available via DX only.

While using mantle will add some costs, it will also allow code already written for the console to be reused. That means that cost will be much smaller than before.

Additionally, today they are much less GPU vendors.

Not only that, the GPU architectures evolved from having vendor exclusive fixed hardware for everything to a highly programmable general propose stream processor.

AMD and NVIDIA architectures are much more similar these days than all the architectures were 10-20 years ago.

 

[imaheadcase]

After other api's have been maxed out they will have no choice but to go mantle. Mantle could double or even tripple the performance in theory. Mantle will be on consoles, pc, and steambox most likely. No other api other than opengl has that reach. Its only logical to use mantle.

Nope again. Since Mantle is AMD only, they have to use multiple ones.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Sure they are. What do you think HLSL or GLSL is? :\



The xbox360 used the r600 architecture and the ps3 had a G70 derivative.

You can port HLSL and GLSL.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/dn166865.aspx

You port your OpenGL Shader Language (GLSL) code to Microsoft High Level Shader Language (HLSL) code when you port your graphics architecture from OpenGL ES 2.0 to Direct3D 11 to create a game for Windows 8. The GLSL that is referred to herein is compatible with OpenGL ES 2.0; the HLSL is compatible with Direct3D 11. For info about the differences between Direct3D 11 and previous versions of Direct3D, see Feature mapping.

Comparing OpenGL ES 2.0 with Direct3D 11
OpenGL ES 2.0 and Direct3D 11 have many similarities. They both have similar rendering pipelines and graphics features. But Direct3D 11 is a rendering implementation and API, not a specification; OpenGL ES 2.0 is a rendering specification and API, not an implementation.

Additionally Mantle is compatible with HLSL. (cool, hein?)

While the ATI Xenos in The Xbox360 had concepts that were only implemented in the R600 like the unified shaders, it was based on the R520.

The RSX of the PS3 based on the G70 didn't even have unified shaders.

The XBone and the PS4 use current architecture and not derivatives. Plus the CPU is also x86 for both.

 

[sontin]

Porting. Exactly. No positive effect. You need to optimize the path because the whole software stack is different. Would it be so easy every game would be come out with a D3D and OpenGL path.

The XBone and the PS4 use current architecture and not derivatives. Plus the CPU is also x86 for both.

"Current" right. And in the future the "current" will change to the last one. If you believe AMD can stay for the next 10 years on the exact same architecture then i guess we should pray for them every sunday.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Porting. Exactly. No positive effect. You need to optimize the path because the whole software stack is different. Would it be so easy every game would be come out with a D3D and OpenGL path.

Of course it has to be ported.

Do you think the DirectX of the consoles is the same has the DirectX of the PC?

Obviously it isn't.

The path optimization will be simplified because you can use part of the optimizations from the consoles via Mantle.

That is the "leverage optimization work from next gen game consoles to PC" part.

 

[GaiaHunter]

"Current" right. And in the future the "current" will change to the last one. If you believe AMD can stay for the next 10 years on the exact same architecture then i guess we should pray for them every sunday.

The current GPUs architecture is a highly programmable one with very few fixed hardware units.

AMD used VLIW from 2006 until 2012 when the Radeon 7000 series released.

That is 6 years right there.

If Mantle is a success and yields significant performance gains, AMD can stay on GCN updates, otherwise it can move on.

And if we look at NVIDIA from the G80 to Kepler it is all evolution of the same fundamental architecture since they all support CUDA.

 

[desprado]

http://www.techpowerup.com/192552/amd-explains-why-mantle-doesnt-work-on-xbox-one.html

AMD confirmed. Mantle is entirely their version of Glide. Mantle will never take off. Here is my take on how BF4 Mantle went down:

AMD : We want you to code BF4 in Mantle.
DICE : Why would we do that? DX version works just fine, it creates extra unnecessary work for us, and you have a minority in both dGPU and CPU share.
AMD : We will pay you $8 million dollars.
DICE : Ok.

AMD does not have enough money or software engineers to throw at developers. Mantle will never, ever get wide spread adoption. And for the titles that get Mantle, it will never get 100% dedication to take full advantage of. Mantle will be flopping like a fish out of water every bit as much as GPU physx.

That what people dont understand.AMD has to pay dev to use mantle for each game.None Dev request AMD to make an API and why dev will ask AMD which dont have a market in GPU or CPU none of that makes sense.

 

[Erazor51]

AMD Explains Why Mantle Is Exclusive To PC & Not Present On Xbox One

Very interesting as even myself expected that Project Mantle would be compaible with Xbox One. Microsoft revealed that Xbox One only supports DX 11.x as its API. Contrary to rumors, Xbox One does not support Mantle (or any other API like OpenGL). A lot of gamers got confused by all of this, which is why AMD decided to step in and explain things.

First of all, let’s see what Microsoft had to say about Xbox One’s API:

“The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.”

When a fan asked AMD about this whole thing, AMD confirmed that Mantle is not in consoles, and will be an exclusive API for the PC:

“What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that’s *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they’re doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist.”

So there you have it everyone. No Mantle on consoles. Not a bad thing as the architecture of a console allows developers to ‘code to the metal’ even by using DX11.x, something that is obviously not possible on the PC.

AMD promised to reveal more about Mantle next month.

Link: http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/am..._exclusive_to_pc_not_present_on_xbox_one.html

 

[Yarn]

Amd paid dice to use mantle, then got the rights to use bf4 on their cards, in their marketing material and bundles the game for free right?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Amd paid dice to use mantle, then got the rights to use bf4 on their cards, in their marketing material and bundles the game for free right?

BF4 is not part of free game bundles (yet).

 

[Chiropteran]

A double edged sword actually isn't a bad thing at all. In combat, if you strike your sword against a hard metal surface, you will dull the blade. By turning the sword around and using the other edge, you get the advantages of a freshly sharpened edge without having to change weapons or stop to sharpen your blade in the middle of combat.

Can't wait to see what Mantle enables.

 

[Yarn]

Copies are included with the special edition cards no?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Copies are included with the special edition cards no?

Yep, but they also cost extra. And only 8000 of them.

 

[MeldarthX]

But we do know that the never settle bundles are coming back to the r200 cards

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/32817-never-settle-coming-back-to-rx200-cards

Second.....I was wrong on Mantle in thinking it was the main low level; but not exactly wrong in how AMD intends to use it. They will get it into the engines; but how much speed; etc we get from it we'll have to wait and see.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

http://www.techpowerup.com/192552/amd-explains-why-mantle-doesnt-work-on-xbox-one.html

AMD confirmed. Mantle is entirely their version of Glide. Mantle will never take off. Here is my take on how BF4 Mantle went down:

AMD : We want you to code BF4 in Mantle.
DICE : Why would we do that? DX version works just fine, it creates extra unnecessary work for us, and you have a minority in both dGPU and CPU share.
AMD : We will pay you $8 million dollars.
DICE : Ok.

Actually, its the other way around, EA paid AMD for exclusive Mantle rights according to a poster on page 2.

 

[tviceman]

Actually, its the other way around, EA paid AMD for exclusive Mantle rights according to a poster on page 2.

I ignored that post because logically it's the dumbest thing I've tried to decipher in the past month.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

I ignored that post because logically it's the dumbest thing I've tried to decipher in the past month.

Well it is EA.

Plus, might be a marketing tactic to promote their Frostbite engine.