Originally posted by: de8212
Brock does fit the "standard". Heavyweights are 206 to 265 lbs.
Originally posted by: SirFshAlot
right
apparently I didn't make my intended point very clear when I said "I wish there were some kind of different weight standards."
someone at 265 beating someone at 206 isn't quite as thrilling or admirable as the closer weight classes below heavyweights, IMO
Originally posted by: hungfarover
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: hungfarover
Dana White on Jim Rome show right now...
Please paraphrase later...I don't have access to it.
Dana just said right after the fight he went in and talked to Brock and basically said "how the #$&@ could you do this to me after what I've done for you?" Brock allegedly apologized. Then Dana said he (Brock) went out to the fans and apologized(?)
I bought the PPV and they didn't show anything like that...
He also said he talked to Dan Henderson right afterward and let him know he wasn't happy with what he said in the post-fight interview. Dan said that he didn't follow up with the airborne fist to "shut him up", he said he got caught up in the moment and said that just to play to the crowd.
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
You guys can call Lesnar a douche all you like, not that you would dare do it to his face The fact is, his being a "sore loser" has driven him to be the best at everything he does.
He said Dana had a "whip the dog" talk with him, and he did toe the line afterwards. I suspect he will carry himself more professionally in the future.
As to GSP, I have resisted getting on the bandwagon for a long time now. But the way he took Alves down, and controlled the fight, was damned impressive. I won't pick against him again, anytime soon.
Bisping broke the #1 rule of boxing, never move into the guy's power. Maybe he thought he really could not be KO'd, or that he had the speed and movement to slip it? He was screamed at by his trainer not to do it, so it was completely inexplicable that he would keep playing with fire like that.
Originally posted by: ric1287
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
You guys can call Lesnar a douche all you like, not that you would dare do it to his face The fact is, his being a "sore loser" has driven him to be the best at everything he does.
He said Dana had a "whip the dog" talk with him, and he did toe the line afterwards. I suspect he will carry himself more professionally in the future.
As to GSP, I have resisted getting on the bandwagon for a long time now. But the way he took Alves down, and controlled the fight, was damned impressive. I won't pick against him again, anytime soon.
Bisping broke the #1 rule of boxing, never move into the guy's power. Maybe he thought he really could not be KO'd, or that he had the speed and movement to slip it? He was screamed at by his trainer not to do it, so it was completely inexplicable that he would keep playing with fire like that.
I just wanna know what Lesnar is a douche for his post-game "in the moment" shit....while Mir's endless shittalking before the fight was a-ok?
I saw this article posted in the thread that sourceninja linked. It is nearly 7 years old now, but prescientOriginally posted by: SirFshAlot
Originally posted by: de8212
Brock does fit the "standard". Heavyweights are 206 to 265 lbs.
right
apparently I didn't make my intended point very clear when I said "I wish there were some kind of different weight standards."
someone at 265 beating someone at 206 isn't quite as thrilling or admirable as the closer weight classes below heavyweights, IMO
How Big is Too Big? : :
By Jason Probst (September 30, 2002)
As Mixed Martial Arts expands into the public consciousness, the various promoters of MMA events face a constant challenge. Part of this is constant tinkering with the rules to preserve the sportive aspect while avoiding the old-style "blood sport" feel that marked earlier matches. Rounds and weight classes were the other half of the equation, changing the event from a "one man leaves standing" human dogfight into an athletic event. Strikes to certain areas have been banned, and it's all good. The perception is that the better fighter will find a way to win using technique, not something culled from the dregs of the "How to kill a man in a street fight" mail-order course.
Perhaps the best innovation is the weight classes. No longer facing the grisly prospect of facing men with a huge size advantage, the little guys, particularly in the UFC, have been allowed to compete against folks like themselves. As such, their stardom has flourished. Hell, most of us connoisseurs would take a match of lower weight fighters next to any heavyweight dream bout.
But what do you do when the heavyweights are invaded by mesomorphic monsters? The old problem of the size disparity raised its head during PRIDE Shockwave, when Antonio Nogueira faced Bob Sapp. Nogueira, no small man at 230 lbs., is generally regarded as the best heavyweight in the world. But in tangling with Sapp, he might as well have been a lightweight facing someone his own size. Sapp, a former University of Washington offensive lineman, goes 370, with little wasted physique. So huge and powerful, Sapp was able to lift and spike Nogueira during the bout, a terrifying move which brought the question to bear: How big is too big? And should there be a super heavyweight class created to preserve the sportive aspect of MMA?
Nogueira persevered, surviving the savage concussions, and in a brutal fight submitted Sapp. It was a truly close call. Sure, technique won out, but the salient issue remains: weight classes exist so the most skilled fighter triumphs. Is there any doubt as to how competitive the bout would have been if Sapp were merely 75 lbs. bigger instead of having twice that advantage? It's a scary precedent. There are a lot more 350 lb. monsters walking around after the NFL makes its final cuts than you realize. Imagine their impact on MMA if/when word gets around that you can make a few bucks entering a sport where a few months' training and natural athletic ability could promise serious dollars. It sure as hell beats the normal life after football.
During the old days of the UFC, when Royce Gracie was ruling the roost, we used to sit around and figure out a way to beat him. The learning curve for cross-training hadn't really kicked in, and the Brazilians seemed invincible. No matter what they threw at him -- from Ken Shamrock to Dan Severn -- Gracie solved them or at least proved that size wasn't enough, not even with world-class grappling skills. Mike Tyson would have a shot -- literally, one shot -- and once he missed he was screwed. And hitting a man cleanly at a full rush had proven much harder than it would seem. So Tyson was out.
But at Washington State University we had the man for the job: Mark Fields.
Fields, at 6'2 and 240 lbs. ran a 4.4 forty and had pro scouts drooling. He was the most dominant college linebacker of his time, and anchored a defense that was so good, we used to actually cheer when the Cougs punted. Over several beers, the theory developed that Fields, accustomed to high impacts and tackling, could dethrone Gracie with a full-on bum rush collision. He didn't need a black belt, just a boatload of fast-twitch muscles, which help make him a Pro Bowler today. By stunning Gracie with a high-speed crushing hit, he could land on top, and unleash a quick punch or two while Royce was recovering, and hence, end of Royce. It sounded like a whistling in the graveyard premise, a reach, albeit a fascinating one, until the Sapp- Nogueira bout.
Rick Robertson, a former wrassler, WSU football player, and problem drinker, summed it up best: "Fields probably wouldn't win, but that freaking tackle would be worth the $30 on the cable bill." Suddenly, it's not the joke it used to be.
A football player with a huge size advantage can do pretty well in MMA. Maybe not a Fields, but someone 100 or more lbs. bigger could. Sapp is proof.
Say you're 180 lbs. If you've ever sparred with a 110 lb. black belt, you know how much weight counts.
But sadly enough, the flip side of the monster heavyweights is that usually they aren't that skillful. When pitted against each other, the usual result between two 330-lb. sluggers is a mutual exchange, somebody falls down and can't get up, and the other guy slops on top of them and pounds them into submission. It's akin to Russian military tactics: not fancy, sublime, or high-minded, but brutal and effective just the same. But a guy like Sapp is different. He probably couldn't beat you in the 100 yard dash, but he could beat you to your mailbox. A football player makes it pretty scary.
The worst-case scenario of the spiking was luckily avoided. Nogueira could've been seriously injured, or even killed. If you remember what Frank Shamrock did to Igor Zinoviev, you know how dangerous a simple slam is, much less a spiking. Only until a powerful force like Sapp has come along, it has become apparent that this move might need to be banned, or at least pit him against someone his own size to mitigate the likelihood of it happening (imagine Sapp lifting and spiking 330 lb. Daniel Bobish.....which begs the question of, "Is it a no-contest if the canvas is cratered?" Of course Bob would probably get a hernia doing it.........which would deter him from trying it in the future. But not against feather-light people like Nogueira).
As it stands now, people like Sapp are still relatively rare in NHB. The diminishing returns of speed as size increases past a certain point are inhibiting. If you remember Randy Couture's debut in the UFC, the point was made pretty obviously, as he submitted Tony Halme and Stephen Graham, both weighing close to 300 lbs., yet both lacked the quickness to deal with a world-class 225 lb. wrestler. But someone 370 may be pretty dangerous with just a touch of that first-step explosiveness. There aren't many Sapps around, and as such, his brutal bout with "Minotauro" won't be a recurring issue. But eventually there might be. And if the succession of the once-invincible Gracies by the current crop of champions proves, it's that nothing is unchallenged in MMA.
Somewhere could be a 400 lb. monster that's 20 years old, a brown belt, and cross-training his butt off. When he gets into MMA, he won't be some WWF washout. He won't be an ex-football player looking for another way to make a buck. He won't be a bodybuilder with a mean streak. He will know his stuff. And he'll be so big and powerful that nobody can do anything with him.
Give him a couple years to enter the mix, and he'll force the question of a super heavyweight division, possibly tearing someone's limb off or badly mauling them in the process (it's not an exaggeration....someone that powerful who actually knew how to lay in a triangle, or a Kimura, or whatever....in the heat of combat it's not hard to imagine something Very Regrettable happening.......this could also affect scoring in sport jiu-jitsu as well.......how many points for tearing a man's arm off? Or for knee to the stomach ending in the recipient coughing up his spleen?).
Think it sounds farfetched? Well, give it time. If there's anything America has proven during the past decade of Mixed Martial Arts, it's that ideas, innovations, and concepts cross-pollinate at astounding speed. Given just five years, from 1993-98, the improvement and emergence of Americans who were virtually clueless in the early UFCs is amazing. If you'd said there would be a day when Gracies were losing more than they were winning (albeit against bigger guys), you would've sounded crazy back then (like if a month ago, somebody told you the Rams would open the season 0-3).
In time, huge people like Sapp will not only enter the sport in greater numbers, but they'll be training for several years as opposed to entering the game fairly late. His success is not going to go unnoticed, and the repercussions could be significant. That's exactly the kind of thing that nobody, not even a great champion like Nogueira, should be reasonably expected to face. Of course, the mores behind PRIDE are far different. MMA fighting is an accepted sport in Japan, and they don't have to toe the line. They can sell a freak attraction and not sweat the repercussions. But stateside there are a lot of big people and MMA training is everywhere. The reason you haven't seen a 400 lb, 15% body fat black belt? Give it time, it takes a few years.
The super heavyweights are a concept that should be explored now. Let the authorities hash out the limit, whether it's 275, 300, 325, or whatever. But do something. Plus, it might actually hasten the development of skills, as guys would have to learn techniques instead of relying on a huge weight advantage. It'd be nice to see it happen in a proactive manner, before somebody becomes the tragic index case for why it should've been instituted in the first place.
That was not the typical pre-fight trash talking. Frank was arrogant and disdainful, going on about how he was working on the subtle variations of techniques Lesnar didn't even know the name of.Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: ric1287
I just wanna know what Lesnar is a douche for his post-game "in the moment" shit....while Mir's endless shittalking before the fight was a-ok?
the pre fight shit talking is just usually something to hype the fight. most fighters do it. 99% of the time AFTER they fight they hug and all is forgiven.
I really don't care how Lesnar acts. he is still an amazing fighter and has tons of SKILL.
he is going to be scary when he gets more experiance.
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I saw this article posted in the thread that sourceninja linked. It is nearly 7 years old now, but prescientOriginally posted by: SirFshAlot
Originally posted by: de8212
Brock does fit the "standard". Heavyweights are 206 to 265 lbs.
right
apparently I didn't make my intended point very clear when I said "I wish there were some kind of different weight standards."
someone at 265 beating someone at 206 isn't quite as thrilling or admirable as the closer weight classes below heavyweights, IMOHow Big is Too Big? : :
By Jason Probst (September 30, 2002)
As Mixed Martial Arts expands into the public consciousness, the various promoters of MMA events face a constant challenge. Part of this is constant tinkering with the rules to preserve the sportive aspect while avoiding the old-style "blood sport" feel that marked earlier matches. Rounds and weight classes were the other half of the equation, changing the event from a "one man leaves standing" human dogfight into an athletic event. Strikes to certain areas have been banned, and it's all good. The perception is that the better fighter will find a way to win using technique, not something culled from the dregs of the "How to kill a man in a street fight" mail-order course.
Perhaps the best innovation is the weight classes. No longer facing the grisly prospect of facing men with a huge size advantage, the little guys, particularly in the UFC, have been allowed to compete against folks like themselves. As such, their stardom has flourished. Hell, most of us connoisseurs would take a match of lower weight fighters next to any heavyweight dream bout.
But what do you do when the heavyweights are invaded by mesomorphic monsters? The old problem of the size disparity raised its head during PRIDE Shockwave, when Antonio Nogueira faced Bob Sapp. Nogueira, no small man at 230 lbs., is generally regarded as the best heavyweight in the world. But in tangling with Sapp, he might as well have been a lightweight facing someone his own size. Sapp, a former University of Washington offensive lineman, goes 370, with little wasted physique. So huge and powerful, Sapp was able to lift and spike Nogueira during the bout, a terrifying move which brought the question to bear: How big is too big? And should there be a super heavyweight class created to preserve the sportive aspect of MMA?
Nogueira persevered, surviving the savage concussions, and in a brutal fight submitted Sapp. It was a truly close call. Sure, technique won out, but the salient issue remains: weight classes exist so the most skilled fighter triumphs. Is there any doubt as to how competitive the bout would have been if Sapp were merely 75 lbs. bigger instead of having twice that advantage? It's a scary precedent. There are a lot more 350 lb. monsters walking around after the NFL makes its final cuts than you realize. Imagine their impact on MMA if/when word gets around that you can make a few bucks entering a sport where a few months' training and natural athletic ability could promise serious dollars. It sure as hell beats the normal life after football.
During the old days of the UFC, when Royce Gracie was ruling the roost, we used to sit around and figure out a way to beat him. The learning curve for cross-training hadn't really kicked in, and the Brazilians seemed invincible. No matter what they threw at him -- from Ken Shamrock to Dan Severn -- Gracie solved them or at least proved that size wasn't enough, not even with world-class grappling skills. Mike Tyson would have a shot -- literally, one shot -- and once he missed he was screwed. And hitting a man cleanly at a full rush had proven much harder than it would seem. So Tyson was out.
But at Washington State University we had the man for the job: Mark Fields.
Fields, at 6'2 and 240 lbs. ran a 4.4 forty and had pro scouts drooling. He was the most dominant college linebacker of his time, and anchored a defense that was so good, we used to actually cheer when the Cougs punted. Over several beers, the theory developed that Fields, accustomed to high impacts and tackling, could dethrone Gracie with a full-on bum rush collision. He didn't need a black belt, just a boatload of fast-twitch muscles, which help make him a Pro Bowler today. By stunning Gracie with a high-speed crushing hit, he could land on top, and unleash a quick punch or two while Royce was recovering, and hence, end of Royce. It sounded like a whistling in the graveyard premise, a reach, albeit a fascinating one, until the Sapp- Nogueira bout.
Rick Robertson, a former wrassler, WSU football player, and problem drinker, summed it up best: "Fields probably wouldn't win, but that freaking tackle would be worth the $30 on the cable bill." Suddenly, it's not the joke it used to be.
A football player with a huge size advantage can do pretty well in MMA. Maybe not a Fields, but someone 100 or more lbs. bigger could. Sapp is proof.
Say you're 180 lbs. If you've ever sparred with a 110 lb. black belt, you know how much weight counts.
But sadly enough, the flip side of the monster heavyweights is that usually they aren't that skillful. When pitted against each other, the usual result between two 330-lb. sluggers is a mutual exchange, somebody falls down and can't get up, and the other guy slops on top of them and pounds them into submission. It's akin to Russian military tactics: not fancy, sublime, or high-minded, but brutal and effective just the same. But a guy like Sapp is different. He probably couldn't beat you in the 100 yard dash, but he could beat you to your mailbox. A football player makes it pretty scary.
The worst-case scenario of the spiking was luckily avoided. Nogueira could've been seriously injured, or even killed. If you remember what Frank Shamrock did to Igor Zinoviev, you know how dangerous a simple slam is, much less a spiking. Only until a powerful force like Sapp has come along, it has become apparent that this move might need to be banned, or at least pit him against someone his own size to mitigate the likelihood of it happening (imagine Sapp lifting and spiking 330 lb. Daniel Bobish.....which begs the question of, "Is it a no-contest if the canvas is cratered?" Of course Bob would probably get a hernia doing it.........which would deter him from trying it in the future. But not against feather-light people like Nogueira).
As it stands now, people like Sapp are still relatively rare in NHB. The diminishing returns of speed as size increases past a certain point are inhibiting. If you remember Randy Couture's debut in the UFC, the point was made pretty obviously, as he submitted Tony Halme and Stephen Graham, both weighing close to 300 lbs., yet both lacked the quickness to deal with a world-class 225 lb. wrestler. But someone 370 may be pretty dangerous with just a touch of that first-step explosiveness. There aren't many Sapps around, and as such, his brutal bout with "Minotauro" won't be a recurring issue. But eventually there might be. And if the succession of the once-invincible Gracies by the current crop of champions proves, it's that nothing is unchallenged in MMA.
Somewhere could be a 400 lb. monster that's 20 years old, a brown belt, and cross-training his butt off. When he gets into MMA, he won't be some WWF washout. He won't be an ex-football player looking for another way to make a buck. He won't be a bodybuilder with a mean streak. He will know his stuff. And he'll be so big and powerful that nobody can do anything with him.
Give him a couple years to enter the mix, and he'll force the question of a super heavyweight division, possibly tearing someone's limb off or badly mauling them in the process (it's not an exaggeration....someone that powerful who actually knew how to lay in a triangle, or a Kimura, or whatever....in the heat of combat it's not hard to imagine something Very Regrettable happening.......this could also affect scoring in sport jiu-jitsu as well.......how many points for tearing a man's arm off? Or for knee to the stomach ending in the recipient coughing up his spleen?).
Think it sounds farfetched? Well, give it time. If there's anything America has proven during the past decade of Mixed Martial Arts, it's that ideas, innovations, and concepts cross-pollinate at astounding speed. Given just five years, from 1993-98, the improvement and emergence of Americans who were virtually clueless in the early UFCs is amazing. If you'd said there would be a day when Gracies were losing more than they were winning (albeit against bigger guys), you would've sounded crazy back then (like if a month ago, somebody told you the Rams would open the season 0-3).
In time, huge people like Sapp will not only enter the sport in greater numbers, but they'll be training for several years as opposed to entering the game fairly late. His success is not going to go unnoticed, and the repercussions could be significant. That's exactly the kind of thing that nobody, not even a great champion like Nogueira, should be reasonably expected to face. Of course, the mores behind PRIDE are far different. MMA fighting is an accepted sport in Japan, and they don't have to toe the line. They can sell a freak attraction and not sweat the repercussions. But stateside there are a lot of big people and MMA training is everywhere. The reason you haven't seen a 400 lb, 15% body fat black belt? Give it time, it takes a few years.
The super heavyweights are a concept that should be explored now. Let the authorities hash out the limit, whether it's 275, 300, 325, or whatever. But do something. Plus, it might actually hasten the development of skills, as guys would have to learn techniques instead of relying on a huge weight advantage. It'd be nice to see it happen in a proactive manner, before somebody becomes the tragic index case for why it should've been instituted in the first place.
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Carwin calls out Brock! The winner of Carwin/Cain faces Brock. I like Cain and think he's an excellent fighter but I hope Carwin wins...two huge doods slugging it out with lunchboxes for fists. Brock can't smother that dood like he did w/ Mir
It could be one of those fights where the first clean shot decides it. They are both brutally strong and match up well in just about every other way.Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Carwin calls out Brock! The winner of Carwin/Cain faces Brock. I like Cain and think he's an excellent fighter but I hope Carwin wins...two huge doods slugging it out with lunchboxes for fists. Brock can't smother that dood like he did w/ Mir
Yeap figured that. Carwin is a HUGE fucking guy. one of the few that won't be bothered by his size and has a chance with his wrestling ability.
it would be a hell of a fight and i would give Carwin a chance to pull it out.
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Carwin calls out Brock! The winner of Carwin/Cain faces Brock. I like Cain and think he's an excellent fighter but I hope Carwin wins...two huge doods slugging it out with lunchboxes for fists. Brock can't smother that dood like he did w/ Mir
Originally posted by: TheNinja
GSP's "new" style is effective but sort of boring and predictable.
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Carwin calls out Brock! The winner of Carwin/Cain faces Brock. I like Cain and think he's an excellent fighter but I hope Carwin wins...two huge doods slugging it out with lunchboxes for fists. Brock can't smother that dood like he did w/ Mir
Originally posted by: SirFshAlot
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes, I do, and without a significant loss of strength. I don't think that the weight difference would have saved Mir, the strength difference was evident. He man handled Mir, and there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.Originally posted by: manimal
Fantastic article! Do you guys think Brock could cut to 250 if that was the cap for HW?
Carwin calls out Brock! The winner of Carwin/Cain faces Brock. I like Cain and think he's an excellent fighter but I hope Carwin wins...two huge doods slugging it out with lunchboxes for fists. Brock can't smother that dood like he did w/ Mir
I'm not sure I have seen either of these guys fight, I don't remember their names if I did.......so I am kind of ignorant about their abilities/skills. But I have to ask.....if they are that good to be considered plausible contenders to Brock, why haven't they been beating the likes of Couture, Liddell, et al in the last couple years? Are they brand new in MMA?
Hate Brock or not, he has come into the scene, and taken on the acknowledged best. Why are we all of a sudden pulling names from the sidelines as contenders?