Ufc 141: Brock lesnar vs alistair overeem

[TurtleCrusher]

Actually all the PRIDE guys are still doing well compared to their UFC counterparts...

Rampage, Hendo, Shogun, Fedor, Anderson Silva compared to Liddell, Tito, etc.

Pride guys doing well in the UFC? Hardly!

Rua: 4W-4L in UFC. 16W-2L outside of ufc. He went from an 88% Win percentage to a lackluster 50%.

Rampage: 7-3 in UFC. 25-6 outside of ufc. 80.1% to 70%, and lost 2 of his last 4.

Fedor: Lost 3 of his last 5, and his wins are literally against sub-par competition.

Henderson: 4-2 In the UFC, 25-4 outside of UFC. Went from 86% to 66%.

Anderson Silva? He LEFT pride before the UFC bought it out.

Now, lets look at Jon Jones: 15-1(DQ loss), 2-0 against the former Pride fighters you just listed.

So, you see that Pride fighters that came over ARENT doing well against top competition. Merely they are doing alright.

Liddell? Tito? If it wasnt for either of them, MMA would still be about as popular as roller-derby. Also, it's kind of funny you mentioned Liddell as he also fought in Pride for a couple of fights. He knocked Overeem OUT at :43 in this video.

 

[Wingznut]

Why do you have to come in here and act like a 12 year old on sherdog? It was civil until you started posting all this crap.

Exactly. If I wanted to read the Sherdog-esque BS, I'd read those forums.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

I don't know how many of you watched the Dream car on Hdnet, but it was the biggest joke in MMA history. They had tag team fights with over the hill fighters, they had fake wrestling matches just like the WWE etc. It was an embarrassment to MMA IMHO.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

I don't know how many of you watched the Dream car on Hdnet, but it was the biggest joke in MMA history. They had tag team fights with over the hill fighters, they had fake wrestling matches just like the WWE etc. It was an embarrassment to MMA IMHO.

Which is exactly why no one should ever give credibility to their wins.

If the WWE started hosting MMA events of retired or can fighters that also fake wrestle, would (heck, COULD) you really think it's real?

 

[clamum]

Did Lesner leak any shit onto the mat last night?

 

[JackBurton]

Pride guys doing well in the UFC? Hardly!

Rua: 4W-4L in UFC. 16W-2L outside of ufc. He went from an 88% Win percentage to a lackluster 50%.

Rampage: 7-3 in UFC. 25-6 outside of ufc. 80.1% to 70%, and lost 2 of his last 4.

Fedor: Lost 3 of his last 5, and his wins are literally against sub-par competition.

Henderson: 4-2 In the UFC, 25-4 outside of UFC. Went from 86% to 66%.

Anderson Silva? He LEFT pride before the UFC bought it out.

Now, lets look at Jon Jones: 15-1(DQ loss), 2-0 against the former Pride fighters you just listed.

So, you see that Pride fighters that came over ARENT doing well against top competition. Merely they are doing alright.

Liddell? Tito? If it wasnt for either of them, MMA would still be about as popular as roller-derby. Also, it's kind of funny you mentioned Liddell as he also fought in Pride for a couple of fights. He knocked Overeem OUT at :43 in this video.

lol, TOP competition. That's hilarious. You do understand Anderson Silva was losing in Pride and then came to the UFC and cleaned house, right? Also, the Pride fighters that came over were pretty much past their prime.

Rampage was IMO an average fighter in Pride that kept getting his ass handed to him by Wanderlei Silva. And Wanderlei Silva was a fighter that kept his win streak up by fighting Japanese cans. He out weighed pretty much all his opponents and didn't really have to worry about getting hit. And by the time Wanderlei came to the UFC he was already washed up. Wanderlei first shot in the big leagues though WAS in UFC. And he was QUICKLY beaten by Vitor Belfort. He then went to Pride. I was never really that impressed with Rua either, but I think he actually lost something when he came to the UFC.

Fedor on the other hand was a TOP fighter, and you have to be smoking crack to think otherwise. That's like saying Mike Tyson was not a top fighter because he lost his last few fights. It's simple, Fedor is pretty much past his prime, and looks like he just wants to retire but something or someone won't let him.

Dan Henderson is the man, and for anyone to question his abilities as a fighter is simply moronic. He IS a top fighter, no question about it.

The UFC DOES have some good fighters now like Jon Jones, Frank Mir, GSP and .....well, I can only think or 3 right now. And their undefeated champ is from Pride (Anderson Silva). As a whole, Pride had MUCH better fighters with impressive credentials. Not some loser being training out of some stupid made up training camp. Even the UFC fighters knew the best fighter were in Pride. The BIG names were in Pride, NOT in the UFC when Pride was around.

And you have to be kidding me about Tito and Liddell. Talk about subpar fighters. They made what UFC is today? LOL! Liddell came over to Pride in their tournament and was only able to beat a VERY young Overeem. And Overeem was NOTHING like you see now. But if you want to see a rematch now, I'm sure it would be a VERY quick fight. I don't think Liddell would take that challenge though.

 

[JackBurton]

I don't know how many of you watched the Dream car on Hdnet, but it was the biggest joke in MMA history. They had tag team fights with over the hill fighters, they had fake wrestling matches just like the WWE etc. It was an embarrassment to MMA IMHO.

No shit! I was watching it and saying, "WTF?!!" I COMPLETELY agree it was an embarrassment. The only decent fight was the Fedor fight, but that was just against some nobody Japanese can they threw at him. And it really wasn't even that good. Extremely disappointing event. I'm glad I recorded it and was able to fast forward though 90% of that ridiculous junk.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

lol, And Overeem was NOTHING like you see now. But if you want to see a rematch now, I'm sure it would be a VERY quick fight. I don't think Liddell would take that challenge though.

Of course he was nothing like he is now. He was at 205, getting his ass handed to him. :biggrin:

 

[WaTaGuMp]

No shit! I was watching it and saying, "WTF?!!" I COMPLETELY agree it was an embarrassment. The only decent fight was the Fedor fight, but that was just against some nobody Japanese can they threw at him. And it really wasn't even that good. Extremely disappointing event. I'm glad I recorded it and was able to fast forward though 90% of that ridiculous junk.

The 1st fight with the slam was cool, well for as long as it lasted. I was like you, fast forwarded through about 90+% of it. JMMA, is heading in a VERY bad direction if this is how the cards will be. Trying to make something exciting for 9 HOURS, gimme a fucking break.

 

[JackBurton]

Of course was nothing like he is now. He was at 205, getting his ass handed to him. :biggrin:

Oh, I agree. He was little and quite honestly didn't think he was really anything that special back then. But he packed on some muscle and got A LOT of experience fighting in K-1. He also worked on his ground skills and participated in different MMA events. He's participated in Pride, but he's really fought all over, Pride, Dream, K-1 (mainly), Strikeforce, and I'm sure plenty of other events.

Chuck Liddell on the other was fat back then and well, hasn't changed. :biggrin: He didn't get any better because he worked out with a shitty camp and kept fighting the same shitty fighters in the UFC.

 

[Apex]

I don't think anyone is saying you CAN'T gain 30-40lbs of muscle. The problem with Overeem is that he gained it extremely quickly. And there comes a point where your body plateaus and gaining even 1lb of muscle becomes very hard to do. I went from 150lbs to ~210lbs (400lb bench and ~500lb squats), however it took me a long time to do it (I'm guessing about 6-8 years). Never took steroids but I can pretty easily tell when someone is using (been around plenty of guys at the gym that do it). And let me tell you, Overeem is using. If he passed a drug test, it's because he's using a steroid that the test didn't pick up. But make no mistake, he's using. I don't need a drug test to tell me that.

That being said, he's still one of my favorite fighters. And quite honestly, most of the MMA world is using. It's just not as in your face as Overeem.

To be fair, 3+ years isn't all that quick.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

To be fair, 3+ years isn't all that quick.

Seriously? Was he just drinking weight gainer shakes and pumping iron for twelve hours a day? Can you please tell me where he found the time to train for K1, Brazilian jujitsu, ect while he was busy adding 60lbs of solid muscle? Wake up dude.

 

[JackBurton]

To be fair, 3+ years isn't all that quick.

That is VERY quick. The average muscle gain per year is 10lbs. And that is solid muscle, not counting fat. Also take into account that if you gain 10lbs your first year, it doesn't mean in 10 years you'll gain 100lbs. It doesn't work that way. There comes a point where your body just will not produce any more muscle.

Also take into consideration injuries. In lifting weights sometimes you suffer injuries even doing everything perfect. And those injuries set you back (pretty much what brought my weight lifting days to a halt). But he's also a fighter so he will suffer even more injuries which will set him back even further. So those 3 years, isn't like a solid 3 years of straight weight training. He has to overcome injuries and ALSO train for his fights.

So yeah, 3 years is pretty damn quick to put on 60 lbs of solid muscle. Even the announcer in K-1 said he looked bigger in his fight than he did 2 weeks prior. 2 weeks! You DO NOT get substantially bigger in 2 weeks time, naturally.

Again, for the people that haven't worked out a day in their life and don't understand how hard it is to put on even a little muscle, I understand his muscle gain may look "normal" to you, but it isn't. Not even close.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

I don't believe for a minute he isn't taking something. I cant explain how he has passed tests either, I am just going with a pure gut feeling he is doping somehow. If he has this so called great secret to building muscle, come out and share it, make a fortune teaching people how.

 

[JackBurton]

I don't believe for a minute he isn't taking something. I cant explain how he has passed tests either, I am just going with a pure gut feeling he is doping somehow. If he has this so called great secret to building muscle, come out and share it, make a fortune teaching people how.

Certain steroids don't show up on tests. Look at the baseball world. The reason the players got away with taking steroids is because they were taking a steroid that was "guaranteed" not to show up on drug tests. The problem was, someone found out about it and then they started screening for that particular drug.

Also take a look at the heavy weight body building competitions. You think they aren't on steroids? They "screen" for steroids there too. The steroid world is crazy. The roids they are coming out with now are more advanced than in the Schwarzenegger days. They are stronger and safer to use. Some would say they are very close to coming out with a perfect drug. I don't like them because I think that's cheating. I got to were I was at without using, but some just want the results overnight. But in a world (sports) where everyone is taking them, it's hard for me to argue that it's cheating. You almost HAVE to take them if you want to compete. If you go into a heavy weight body building competition all natural, you WILL lose, and lose badly.

 

[Howard]

A single glance at his head would be proof that he's taking something.

 

[JackBurton]

And the only reason we're talking about Overeem and steroids is because he's the latest greatest fighter now. Steroids has been going around ever since the beginning of the UFC. Ken Shamrock was a big time offender, then there was Kimo and then Tank (no one does a 600lb bench press naturally) to name a few. So there is really nothing new here.

 

[Apex]

Seriously? Was he just drinking weight gainer shakes and pumping iron for twelve hours a day? Can you please tell me where he found the time to train for K1, Brazilian jujitsu, ect while he was busy adding 60lbs of solid muscle? Wake up dude.

From 225 (when cutting to 205) to 254 (at a 265 cap, so no cut) in 3 years is 30 lbs. 30 lbs in 3 years (that's 10 lbs a year) does not take 12 hours a day for somone 6'5".

That is VERY quick. The average muscle gain per year is 10lbs. And that is solid muscle, not counting fat. Also take into account that if you gain 10lbs your first year, it doesn't mean in 10 years you'll gain 100lbs. It doesn't work that way. There comes a point where your body just will not produce any more muscle.

Also take into consideration injuries. In lifting weights sometimes you suffer injuries even doing everything perfect. And those injuries set you back (pretty much what brought my weight lifting days to a halt). But he's also a fighter so he will suffer even more injuries which will set him back even further. So those 3 years, isn't like a solid 3 years of straight weight training. He has to overcome injuries and ALSO train for his fights.

So yeah, 3 years is pretty damn quick to put on 60 lbs of solid muscle. Even the announcer in K-1 said he looked bigger in his fight than he did 2 weeks prior. 2 weeks! You DO NOT get substantially bigger in 2 weeks time, naturally.

Again, for the people that haven't worked out a day in their life and don't understand how hard it is to put on even a little muscle, I understand his muscle gain may look "normal" to you, but it isn't. Not even close.

Agreed it's not easy, and also agree that the first gains are going to be easier than the last. However, 10 lbs a year for 3 years is not very quick, especially not for a full time athlete, and not for one that is so tall.

I've personally seen 70 lbs on a 5'8" person in 1 year, natural. Though it wasn't all muscle, a good percentage of it was.

Talk with virtually anyone who competes in some kind of combat sport. Going up a weightclass or two per year is definately doable without resorting to drugs.

Again, not to say that Overeem hasn't taken drugs. I definitely wouldn't bet against it. However, that kind of weight and musculature isn't change over 3+ years isn't automatic evidence of it.

 

[JackBurton]

I've personally seen 70 lbs on a 5'8" person in 1 year, natural. Though it wasn't all muscle, a good percentage of it was.

If 50% of that was muscle I'd question it. But the real question is, how much strength did he gain in one year. That will give you a better idea of how much real muscle he put on. If you say he went from 135lb bench to 315lb in one year, he's using.

Talk with virtually anyone who competes in some kind of combat sport. Going up a weightclass or two per year is definately doable without resorting to drugs.

You can go up and down weight classes by gaining or losing weight. That can be done by manipulating your water, fat or muscle weight. You CAN gain muscle mass, but you just don't put on 20lbs of pure muscle in a few months. If you think someone can do that naturally, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Again, most of the sporting world IS doping, so big fluctuations in weight do not surprise me.

 

[Apex]

If 50% of that was muscle I'd question it. But the real question is, how much strength did he gain in one year. That will give you a batter idea of how much real muscle he put on. If you say he went from 135lb bench to 315lb in one year, he's using.



You can go up and down weight classes by gaining or losing weight. That can be done by manipulating your water, fat or muscle weight. You CAN gain muscle mass, but you just don't put on 20lbs of pure muscle in a few months. If you think someone can do that naturally, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Again, most of the sporting world IS doping, so big fluctuations in weight do not surprise me.

Strength gain was huge, definition drop was pretty big too. Fought in 155 division and in the same year, 225. Weigh in on same day of fight, so no cutting. Most of the weight was big muscle groups, centered around the legs, because of the severe amount of damage legs take in knockdown style competition. Upper body gain was relatively minor in comparison.

 

[RPD]

Wait, Rampage is just average, Dan is top dog but Rampage beat Dan. Uh wtf logic?

 

[RPD]

And until he pisses dirty, I don't label him guilty.

Cutting down to 205, means he was dropping 20ish pounds to cut, typical cut is about 10-12% of weight. So from 220-230 to 260 over a span of years, when your full time job is to fight, be in shape AND he's 6'-5"?

You're just plain stupid if you don't think thats possible. (I see Apex covered some of this).

 

[Miramonti]

Odds are his muscle growth isn't from weight training alone. He's huge compared to what he was, and very well proportioned. It's also possible a fighter can take something during training that is out of his system by pre or post-fight testing time.

Is it possible he hasn't taken anything?...I'm really not sure, given the rest of his training habits and all his cardio etc. Other fighters lift extremely hard too but the equivalent muscle increase with excellent proportion isn't seen.

So is it probable its all natural? Hail no.

 

[JackBurton]

Wait, Rampage is just average, Dan is top dog but Rampage beat Dan. Uh wtf logic?

Yes, I consider Rampage average. Rampage beat Dan (decision) and Dan beat Wanderlei (KO) and Wanderlei beat Rampage (multiple times, KO) then Rampage came back and beat Wanderlei in the UFC. So what is your point? Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson so by your logic, Buster Douglas is a great fighter? Uh wtf logic?

Judge the fighter, not his fights. Rampage has no kicks, he obviously can't fucking check a kick (ala Forrest Griffin), stand up is ok (nothing special), and his ground skills are ok at best. His strengths? Slams and ground and pound. What keeps him in the spot light is his mouth and the CRAZY slam he did on Arona back in Pride.

Dan Henderson on the other hand has been in some wars with the best if the best. He's a great wrestler, has a HELL of a punch, and is a bitch to keep on the ground. Probably one of the most underrated fighters out there.

 

[JackBurton]

And until he pisses dirty, I don't label him guilty.

Cutting down to 205, means he was dropping 20ish pounds to cut, typical cut is about 10-12% of weight. So from 220-230 to 260 over a span of years, when your full time job is to fight, be in shape AND he's 6'-5"?

You're just plain stupid if you don't think thats possible. (I see Apex covered some of this).

Sure, I bet you're holding off on Ronnie Coleman to fail his drug test too. Hey, he passes all his tests too and says he doesn't take steroids.


Oh and RDP, I have a bridge to sell you.