UK's NHS is a catastrophe

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Slick5150
If you read the comments below the article, it sounds like most people blame the problem on the costs and overcrowding due to migrants coming to the country just to get free health care. Since what Obama is proposing would only provide coverage to citizens, I don't see how the two relate. We already have a lot of emergency room overcrowding because of illegals and others jamming them up now.

most state laws prohibit hospitals from denying care to illegals, so you're argument doesn't wash.

Nope, it sure doesn't.

 

[PricklyPete]

There are 100's of horror stories I hear all the time from my sisters here in the states(3 out of 5 are nurses and work all over the country...one in Baltimore/DC...one in South Carolina...one in Houston) about how patients were mistreated. So I hardly think that an alarmist story about a single person who had a problem with his treatment worth dissing the whole system over.

The turning away women who are in labor seems much more alarming...but I'm assuming there is more to that story. I would be really surprised if they were turning away a woman if she was at the hospital ready to pop...I need to read the details on that issue before commenting.

 

[misle]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I know the inevitable arguments are forthcoming between US vs national health care, but they are not strictly necessary here, as Canada absolutely doesn't have problems this severe.

That said, Link

The lives of mothers and babies are being put at risk as births in locations ranging from lifts to toilets - even a caravan - went up 15 per cent last year to almost 4,000.
Health chiefs admit a lack of maternity beds is partly to blame for the crisis, with hundreds of women in labour being turned away from hospitals because they are full.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...ets.html#ixzz0PI9FgMRu

Now, some people will always miss the boat and give labor God knows where, but turning away a woman in labor, really? Fvck that.

BTW, not necessarily indicative of the system, as this is unusally rare, but here Man collapses with ruptured appendix... three weeks after NHS doctors 'took it out'

And grand winner of the Understatement of the year:

'However, we would like to apologise if Mr Wattson felt dissatisfied with the care he received at Great Western Hospital.

Now why would he be dissatisfied?

Jeez, from the Appendix article:
Mr Wattson first went under the knife on July 7 after experiencing severe abdominal pain for several weeks.

When I had my appendix removed, I first felt some discomfort around noon, by 10 pm, I was at the hospital and had surgery to remove my appendix the next morning. I think I was discharged before noon. So, even if the treatment went as planned, it took weeks, and it took me less than 24 hours.

I was in severe pain, and I have a high pain tolerance. Morphine barely touched it, yet this guy has to be in that pain for weeks?!?

I think I'll keep what I got.

 

[StageLeft]

So I hardly think that an alarmist story about a single person who had a problem with his treatment worth dissing the whole system over.

That single case was there as an interest piece. I even pre-empted it as a valid argument against NHS in the first post!

The turning away women who are in labor seems much more alarming...but I'm assuming there is more to that story. I would be really surprised if they were turning away a woman if she was at the hospital ready to pop...I need to read the details on that issue before commenting.

True. It sounds incredible.

 

[irwincur]

Since what Obama is proposing would only provide coverage to citizens

Really, I think the wording is service to all bonafide inhabitants. That has been interpreted in the past to mean all people on this soil. Also being used in the Census, which we all know now is going to count all people in the US, legal and illegal.

Not to mention, the Hippocratic Oath that doctors abide by requires that they treat all people, regardless of station equally. This means illegals, criminals, enemies of the state, etc...

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: irwincur

Since what Obama is proposing would only provide coverage to citizens

Really, I think the wording is service to all bonafide inhabitants. That has been interpreted in the past to mean all people on this soil. Also being used in the Census, which we all know now is going to count all people in the US, legal and illegal.

Not to mention, the Hippocratic Oath that doctors abide by requires that they treat all people, regardless of station equally. This means illegals, criminals, enemies of the state, etc...

It will cover everyone, I'm sure.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

So I hardly think that an alarmist story about a single person who had a problem with his treatment worth dissing the whole system over.

That single case was there as an interest piece. I even pre-empted it as a valid argument against NHS in the first post!

My reading comprehension FTL! Sorry about that. I just keep hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence from people about why we should stick with what we have in the US...and I know TONS of anecdotal evidence in the US that would say otherwise. I haven't decided either way on where I think the solution lies (if a solution is needed)...but this topic seems to be the king of anecdotal evidence used for backing up people's arguments.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: rudder
Britain importing doctors to help with the overflow

Campaigners fear the use of foreign doctors is putting patients' lives at risk.

Michael Summers of the Patients' Association said: 'The problem is that these PCTs send the work to agencies saying we need this number of doctors, we don't really care where you get them, and they get any old Tom, Dick or Harry to do the job for £1,000 a weekend.

'Patients' lives are likely to be put at risk if we do not establish the level of expertise and medical training of these doctors arriving from all over the world.'

There are many, many foreign doctors in the U.S., too.

apples and oranges comparison. These doctors in the article are flying to britain on the weekends to work for U.K. doctors because their new contract states that they have reduced weekend hours. Don't be spooked when someone uses the word "foreign" in a discussion and start screaming XENOPHOBE!!!!. Yes there are foreign doctors here (and I do have issue with the fact that many can unfairly compete because they do not have med school loans... but I digress). Foreign doctors practicing in this country must obtain a medical license in the state that they will be practicing. This ensures some degree of competence on the part of the physician. Now from what I read that these doctors have to show a certain training but there are no recency requirements. I think the issue with these "foreign" doctors is that people are concerned that there is not oversight on their credentials. I am not from England so I do not have a complete understading of the situation other than to add that some groups in the U.K. are concerned after a series of mishaps by these weekend doctors.

 

[StageLeft]

I would still be surprised if these docs didn't have to go through some rigorous exams and credentialling. Does anybody know for sure? I certainly wouldn't want to see a doctor who had been "flown in" unless he was from a "non-sh*t" country, like France or something, but flown in from some backass nation, no thank you.

 

[Atheus]

Why do you feel you have to spread propaganda about our country to make you feel better about your own? Can you not argue against the proposed American version of the NHS on it's own merits? Perhaps it's an insecurity thing, like when the bully at school feels he has to beat down the smaller children, in case one day they challenge the bully's position of power.

BTW here are the actual figures from the article:

* 63 births in ambulances and 608 in transit to hospitals;
* 117 births in A&E departments, four in minor injury units and two in medical assessment areas;
* 115 births on other hospital wards and 36 in other unspecified areas including corridors;
* 399 in parts of maternity units other than labour beds, including postnatal and antenatal wards and reception areas.

So those first few you can discount - I don't see anything abnormal about a woman giving birth in transit it happens all the time. The second 117 were in other units like A&E - what do you suggest they do? Send a woman in A&E with a broken leg to the maternity ward just to give birth? Same with the 115 in the next paragraph. That leaves the 36 plus the 399 who may have delivered in an antinatal ward or something instead... out of 758,000 babies born in 2008... how horrific...

And as for turning people away? Do you understand what happens when an ambulance picks someone up? They take them to the closest hospital which has room for them. If one hospital 'turns them away' because they're full, then the ambulance goes to (shock horror) the next hospital...

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I would still be surprised if these docs didn't have to go through some rigorous exams and credentialling. Does anybody know for sure? I certainly wouldn't want to see a doctor who had been "flown in" unless he was from a "non-sh*t" country, like France or something, but flown in from some backass nation, no thank you.

Yea becasue brown people have smaller brains...

 

[StageLeft]

Why do you feel you have to spread propaganda about our country to make you feel better about your own?

I mentioned an article in the first post and two more later. This doesn't qualify as propaganda. The reason I poke at England often is because I want to be sure that the US does not use it as a model, because these days it is a model for very little.

Yea becasue brown people have smaller brains...

Why do you say that?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Why do you feel you have to spread propaganda about our country to make you feel better about your own?

I mentioned an article in the first post and two more later. This doesn't qualify as propaganda.

Do you know what the Daily Mail is? It's a far right wing tabloid paper read by the sort of people who brings knives and guns to football matches. They're often openly xenophobic. It was anti-labour propaganda when they printed it, and it's anti-labour propaganda when you re-printed it.

The reason I poke at England often is because I want to be sure that the US does not use it as a model, because these days it is a model for very little.

Despite being the model for most world governments, legal systems, etc...

Seriously though, we British like to complain a lot, but I've lived in a few countries, and the NHS is a truly excellent service. If you're sick or injured, no matter who you are you WILL be treated, and that treatment will be free at the point of need.

You could do worse than follow the philosophy if not the implementation.

Yea becasue brown people have smaller brains...

Why do you say that?

Well to point out the absurdity of it - these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is. What possible problem could you have with them except they come from overseas? The EU is hardly foriegn anyway. We'll all be one country in 50 years.

 

[StageLeft]

these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is.

If they are fully licensed and credentialed, that clears up the confusion on this point.

Daily mail aside, plenty of other papers have criticisms for then NHS.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Despite being the model for most world governments, legal systems, etc...

I've had friends and family that experienced the UK's system, they were very impressed.

You Brits should be proud of your system, and I hope we can manage to develop something like it in the US.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is.

If they are fully licensed and credentialed, that clears up the confusion on this point.

What did you think? They were hiring untrained unlicenced docs? Why would they do that? This is not some kind of 3rd world backwater you know.

Daily mail aside, plenty of other papers have criticisms for then NHS.

Well please use those then. You really shouldn't belive a single word you read in papers like the Mail.

I'm not saying there's no reason to critisize the system - there's plenty. for example recently the cleaning services were outsourced to private companies rather than an HNS-trained professional cleaning staff. The general consensus is they do nowhere near as good a job, possibly leading to higher rates or hospital aquired infections. This is not a problem of too much socialist policy though. Perhaps the opposite.

 

[StageLeft]

What did you think? They were hiring untrained unlicenced docs? Why would they do that? This is not some kind of 3rd world backwater you know.

I assumed from the get-go that they were credentialed, but rudder had heard differently.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Atheus

Despite being the model for most world governments, legal systems, etc...

I've had friends and family that experienced the UK's system, they were very impressed.

You Brits should be proud of your system, and I hope we can manage to develop something like it in the US.

Or even better perhaps.

Thank for backing me up. I get a bit defensive of the NHS these days becasue my father was diagnosed with cancer last year. After a series of operations and several rounds of chemo and radiotherapy he is now officially clear. The doctors were amazing.

 

[miketheidiot]

I would love to have the nhs in america. I would love to be able to go to the doctor and not have to panic about how i am going to afford it.

I went to the er a couple years ago after a stepped on a rusty old rake, and despite being triple covered I ended up having to cover most of it myself. Since then, I have gone out of my way to not go back.

 

[Confusednewbie1552]

as a person that has lived in both england and america i can tell you that the NHS is superior to what we have in america; superior, but, like all things in this world, not perfect. not that anecdotal evidence means anything though.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is.

If they are fully licensed and credentialed, that clears up the confusion on this point.

Daily mail aside, plenty of other papers have criticisms for then NHS.

Thats how they sell news and newspapers,scandals etc do you believe everything you read or hear?...... I can tell you that its better then what any newspapers have printed ,my grandmother died 2 years ago in hospital (NHS) and the care she got over the 10 days was nothing short of amazing(I was there every day) .

 

[0marTheZealot]

Low risk pregnancies should be mid-wived. Dedicating a hospital room and a doctor is an unnecessary expenditure of resources. Women have been giving birth for millions of years in more risky situations.

 

[Analogsoul]

Let me post this again about an American's experience with the NHS. No system is perfect, but the system in the US really needs to change towards UHC. I'm sure there are issues with the NHS, but I doubt they are any worse that what we have over here.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: Skoorb

these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is.

If they are fully licensed and credentialed, that clears up the confusion on this point.

Daily mail aside, plenty of other papers have criticisms for then NHS.

Thats how they sell news and newspapers,scandals etc do you believe everything you read or hear?...... I can tell you that its better then what any newspapers have printed ,my grandmother died 2 years ago in hospital (NHS) and the care she got over the 10 days was nothing short of amazing(I was there every day) .

With all due respect, criticisms of daily mail may be fair, but to ask "do you believe everything you read" and in turn make an argument you expect me to believe over a newspaper, even if it's a scandalous one, is somewhat ironic.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: Skoorb

these are doctors who are licenced to practice medicine in the UK in just the same way an all-english cricket-playing warm-ale-drinking white British doctor is.

If they are fully licensed and credentialed, that clears up the confusion on this point.

Daily mail aside, plenty of other papers have criticisms for then NHS.

Thats how they sell news and newspapers,scandals etc do you believe everything you read or hear?...... I can tell you that its better then what any newspapers have printed ,my grandmother died 2 years ago in hospital (NHS) and the care she got over the 10 days was nothing short of amazing(I was there every day) .

With all due respect, criticisms of daily mail may be fair, but to ask "do you believe everything you read" and in turn make an argument you expect me to believe over a newspaper, even if it's a scandalous one, is somewhat ironic.

It's clear you have no real experience with NHS ,my point is I'm talking from real experince ,anyway believe what you want ,I know the truth from my own personal real experience of 40 plus years .