Ultimate Muscle Training Guide

[Amused]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Amused

The problem with this, along with any other "one size fits all advice" when it comes to diet is just that, "one size fits all" is absurd because people are VERY different. What works for the easy gainer will not work for the hard gainer, and vice-versa.

For the very hard gainer, 2g may be needed (I doubt it, though), but for the easy gainer, it's way beyond overkill.

I'm a hard gainer muscle-wise, but an easy gainer fat-wise. Some people can't gain much weight of either fat or muscle because their metabolism is so high. But for me, I'll gain weight easily, it's just not going to be much muscle. So I have to take things very slow and go for slow gains. If I go for the quick gains I'll just get fat.

I've been at it for a while though, so over time I have seen gains.

Yep, exactly what I'm talking about. Each person needs to tailor their diet to their own body's needs. One size fits all diet advice is absurd.

 

[oddyager]

Originally posted by: lrad50
Hey guys-

I really need some help with my workout plan. I have been going to LA fitness 4-5 times a week (for about 6 months) and feel stronger but don't see any results. I have been eating a lot but not gaining a single pound (165 at 6'3").

I can do 3 sets of 10 curls of 40lbs, but my arms are still tiny. My abs are really strong but have not started to really tone. I usually do many sets of various flat backed ab exersizes. Any tips to improve my jumping ability would help as well (I play basketball, can only touch rim).

Any advice would be very helpful.

Eating alot doesn't mean you'll gain weight right away. It depends on the diet, like what are you eating, how much, and so on. So what are you eating?

Muscles require rest to heal and grow, which is why you want to split your body workout into different groups for different days. Is that something you've done?

Jumping requires strong calves and ankles, correct? There are a few machines that can be used to build those up. There is one in particular (I do't recall the name) where you stand on a platform with just toes on the edge (sort of like from the diving platform), and weights being pressed down on your shoulders. You'd them elevate and lower yourself with just the front of your feet. Another machine is the reverse squat, where you lie on an incline, on your back, and you push the weights up with just the front of your feet, bending back and forth. Of course you would go lighter weight on these than you'd normally do with real squats.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TerranForces
Lol, I am sorry SP33Demon, but that AST site is garbage. 95% of their info is just plain wrong. They are trying so hard to push their products. They even go as far as to say that their creatine brand is 480% more effective than others because it has a little bit of sugar.

It reminds me of when I first saw a ZMA test. It was real professional and scientific while showing amazing results. Then at the end, there was a little marketing slip saying that their product was the best. What a scam that was.

AST's site garbage? MAX-OT is one of the golden standards, if not the best for powerlifting. Read up on it and try it before knocking it. The results speak for themselves. Almost all of AST's stuff is backed by scientific studies done by independant organizations that publish in journals (like the AMA), not by them.

While you're at it, check out Skip La Cour (4X Team Universe champ)'s workout journal, you might learn something about mass building from someone who actually does it for a living.
Text

Hell, your friend who allegedly went from 205-243 recommends MAX-OT. I tried AST' MAX-OT program and products for awhile (got too expensive) and went from 170 to 203 over the course of 18 months. At 175 I was benching double my weight (FYI I had already been lifting for years before implementing MAX-OT but it took me to the next level). This was using VP-2, Creatine HSC, Glutamine, aspirin, and caffeine incorporated into bracketing method.

In the end, you will hit your genetic limit and injuries will plague you. It's fun to do once in your life though, and see what that limit is. If you want the MAX-OT spreadsheet I used for a M-F schedule w/ weekends off, PM me. I should still have it on my home computer.

 

[KoolDrew]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Thank you for this informative guide.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Amused

The problem with this, along with any other "one size fits all advice" when it comes to diet is just that, "one size fits all" is absurd because people are VERY different. What works for the easy gainer will not work for the hard gainer, and vice-versa.

For the very hard gainer, 2g may be needed (I doubt it, though), but for the easy gainer, it's way beyond overkill.

I'm a hard gainer muscle-wise, but an easy gainer fat-wise. Some people can't gain much weight of either fat or muscle because their metabolism is so high. But for me, I'll gain weight easily, it's just not going to be much muscle. So I have to take things very slow and go for slow gains. If I go for the quick gains I'll just get fat.

I've been at it for a while though, so over time I have seen gains.

Yep, exactly what I'm talking about. Each person needs to tailor their diet to their own body's needs. One size fits all diet advice is absurd.

Yep, totally true. Check out calorie calculators (where it breaks down fat/carb/prot), many sites have it for the 3 body types (ecto, meso, and endomorphs) which should have a questionnaire as to activity level of lifestyle (sit at a desk most of the day? on your feet?).

Only thing regarding diet for one size fits all is bracketing. You could eat insanely high GI Carbs in that time period and not gain a pound, whereas before bed you would pack it on.

 

[TerranForces]

Pu12's advice was different than mine, but I thought I'd post it because he has had the best results. I think around 200g protein is enough for most people. You can only use about 40-45g of protein in one sitting.

And AST's site has overpriced products that are much worse than their competitors. Their multi gives 36mg of iron a day for god's sake. Even women or serious blood donors can't use this much. Good luck with that one.

Their site has some of the most biased info I have ever seen. All their studies say their products are perfect and the others are hype. I bet if they came out with their own creatine EE product, then it wouldn't be hype anymore.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Only thing regarding diet for one size fits all is bracketing. You could eat insanely high GI Carbs in that time period and not gain a pound, whereas before bed you would pack it on.

You could be on to something there, because I've always has weird problems with carbs. Sometimes I can eat the same thing and do the same workout routine and I can't gain muscle and I just gain fat. Other times I eat the sweets and I seem to pack on muscle quickly, and I don't know what I'm doing differently.

I'll look into that.

 

[TerranForces]

The most important meal in my opinion is post workout. Immediately after you work out, you want some sugar and protein. Creatine, protein, and grape juice works well.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TerranForces
Pu12's advice was different than mine, but I thought I'd post it because he has had the best results. I think around 200g protein is enough for most people. You can only use about 40-45g of protein in one sitting.

And AST's site has overpriced products that are much worse than their competitors. Their multi gives 36mg of iron a day for god's sake. Even women or serious blood donors can't use this much. Good luck with that one.

Their site has some of the most biased info I have ever seen. All their studies say their products are perfect and the others are hype. I bet if they came out with their own creatine EE product, then it wouldn't be hype anymore.

Where are you getting this crap from? 40-45g of protein in one sitting is a Myth. Do you have scientific proof that this is fact? If so, I'd love to read it. Read.

AST's products work, period. They are expensive, no doubt. You get what you pay for, VP-2 is one of the best proteins out there for BV rates. I've used it and gotten better results than Optimum (they cut costs with Whey concentrate) and brand name sht like EAS and MET-RX. Do you even know what Whey isolate is, and why it's more expensive than Whey concentrate (the sht you buy)?

Look at the ingredients in VP-2: 100% hydrolyzed "ogliopeptide" isolated whey peptide fractions consisting of precision engineered whey peptide isolate fractions (beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, immunoglobulin, proteosepeptone, glycomacropeptides (GMP), B.S.A., lactoferrin, lactoperoxidase, lysozyme, relaxin, lactollin and beta-microglobulin). No concentrate in there. Look at the ingredients in your 100% WHEY POWER: Whey protein blend (micro/ultra filtered whey concentrate, whey isolate, whey peptides).

Notice how your WHEY POWER won't list the % concentrate or isolate or peptides on the label. It could be 50%, 80%, it could be 95%. We don't know is my point, b/c it's a blend. Judging by the price, I'd guess you're consuming at least 50% whey concentrate at $20/5lbs, but who really knows b/c they won't tell us. The point is that there are Ferrari's, Acura's, Honda's, and pinto's in the whey protein world. Your stuff is the Honda, the next tier up is Acura, and custom made blends like www.proteinfactory.com is the Ferrari. It all depends on your budget.

Last but not least, I don't know where you're getting information that 36mg of Iron is too much. From your own website, bodybuilding.com:
Iron's RDA for men is 10 mg and for women is 15mg. However, for hard training athletes the PDI (performance daily intake) for men and women is from 25 to 60 milligrams.
36mg/serving is a low estimate for an athlete's PDI. Frankly, if you're worried about getting too much iron as a powerlifter then you should take your tinfoil hat off (not to mention that AST's multi is #13 on the bodybuilding.com best seller's list out of all products). And please stop spreading bodybuilding myths unless you have scientific evidence to back it, a lot peeps on this forums are absolute beginners and may actually listen to a 16 yr old cut and pasting from bodybuilding.com.

 

[TerranForces]

Do you have any scientific proof that you can digest more than 45g of protein per sitting? All that link says is that "scientists" BELIEVE that you can digest more. Real concrete evidence there. Of course they will say that, so you eat more of their protein; and therefore, buy more of it too. Don't be so naive.

BTW, nobody is impressed that you can copy down the ingredients to VP-2 and falsely state that ON whey has 50% concentration. A test showed that it had 92% concentration and 13g of BCAA's per serving. You don't need a rocket scientists to figure this one out:

5lb On Whey 92% concentration for $25.
2lb VP-2 isolate (95-98%) for $36

Who knows if their claims hold up anyway. There is a reason On Whey is the #1 sold supplement by far. VP-2 doesn't even crack the top 50. I won't even comment on the car statement to spare you some respect.

36mg of iron is way too much for a multivitamin. Vit-min 75+, Now Adam, and Winfuel Men's have no iron at all. First of all, only women and blood donors need high amounts of iron. Not only is it slightly catabolic, but it will also interfere with the absorbtion of much more important minerals like Zinc. Most men have too much iron because of their diets anyway. Bran Flakes alone have 11g of iron per serving.

Symptoms of overdosing on iron have been shown at as low as 30mg a day. You definately don't want to push the envelope for something with such limited benefits. Once again, there is a reason why women's vitamins have iron and men's don't.

Do us all a favor, and stop spreading myths yourself. Creatine Ethyl Ester has been proven to have almost 3 times the absorbition of monohydrate, sesamin is a very popular and effective fat loss agent, and On Whey certainly does not have a 50% concentration. Get your scientific references from some place reputable like WebMd at least. I am beginning to wonder if you are a paid representative from AST.

 

[TGS]

I still remember when I started doing minor BBing. I gained about 20 pounds(5'9" 145-165) just from lifting very low weight(IE the 5-10Lbs DBs, hey I'm a lightweight) to doing it every other day getting upto around 55Lbs on the DBs. This took about two months of this schedule. I was completely amazed how quickly I put on weight without a change in diet. The only time I've ever had strong legs, was when I was during my AF tech school. I lived about 3-4 miles off base and had to bike to and from school. I had some seriously rock hard legs, but they weren't gigantic or anything.

 

[TerranForces]

On a side note, I started taking some green tea extract. I was actually really surprised at the results. It gave a good amount of energy and seems to allow less sleep. I recommend it for being so cheap.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TerranForces
Do you have any scientific proof that you can digest more than 45g of protein per sitting? All that link says is that "scientists" BELIEVE that you can digest more. Real concrete evidence there. Of course they will say that, so you eat more of their protein; and therefore, buy more of it too. Don't be so naive.

BTW, nobody is impressed that you can copy down the ingredients to VP-2 and falsely state that ON whey has 50% concentration. A test showed that it had 92% concentration and 13g of BCAA's per serving. You don't need a rocket scientists to figure this one out:

5lb On Whey 92% concentration for $25.
2lb VP-2 isolate (95-98%) for $36

Who knows if their claims hold up anyway. There is a reason On Whey is the #1 sold supplement by far. VP-2 doesn't even crack the top 50. I won't even comment on the car statement to spare you some respect.

36mg of iron is way too much for a multivitamin. Vit-min 75+, Now Adam, and Winfuel Men's have no iron at all. First of all, only women and blood donors need high amounts of iron. Not only is it slightly catabolic, but it will also interfere with the absorbtion of much more important minerals like Zinc. Most men have too much iron because of their diets anyway. Bran Flakes alone have 11g of iron per serving.

Symptoms of overdosing on iron have been shown at as low as 30mg a day. You definately don't want to push the envelope for something with such limited benefits. Once again, there is a reason why women's vitamins have iron and men's don't.

Do us all a favor, and stop spreading myths yourself. Creatine Ethyl Ester has been proven to have almost 3 times the absorbition of monohydrate, sesamin is a very popular and effective fat loss agent, and On Whey certainly does not have a 50% concentration. Get your scientific references from some place reputable like WebMd at least. I am beginning to wonder if you are a paid representative from AST.

Funny that you want to argue over something I've been doing for 16 years (yes, I've been lifting since you were born) and something you just started. Keep cut and pasting your bodybuilding.com info and myths that you've heard at the gym. My opinions are backed by results from personally testing any product that comes out of my mouth, as well as years of experience.

First off, link all of your studies, including the ON one. I can't trust anything you say so you need to provide hard evidence (just cut and paste the link you found from Google today). Second, I never said anything at all about ON Whey except that I got better results with VP-2. The ingredient list referenced your generic 100% WHEY POWER that you have linked for all the beginners to buy, look again it's in your first post. You know, the one with the Whey concentrate blend made by "High Power"? Reading is a necessity in life.

Of course VP-2 isn't a best seller, it's 2-3X the price of regular whey. Who can afford that unless you're making some good money. I tried it for awhile and got insane results, using it in strict bracketing meals. My results were better than with any other Whey powder for bulking.

You say: "36mg of iron is way too much for a multivitamin".
Again, take the tinfoil hat off. Do you know how much iron a steak has? Are you going to stop eating red meat b/c you're worried about breaking the 30mg "limit" you set for yourself? Spare us please. Second, you never addressed the fact that bodybuilding.com said: "However, for hard training athletes the PDI (performance daily intake) for men and women is from 25 to 60 milligrams." It's right out of your own Health Bible. I bet you follow all the RDA's to a T! Guess what bud, if you're even remotely serious about powerlifting then throw that sht out the window. You have different needs, that 10mg Iron RDA for a normal person does not apply to you.

I never took a single multivitamin while powerlifting and gained over 30 lbs of lean muscle mass with a benchpress that doubled my weight. Multi's are not essential as long as you're eating fruits/veggies, it's the protein that's essential. Also, you don't have to buy the 100% pure isolate in order to progress, but that will give you faster gains. Nobody said Whey concentrate blends don't work, but its absorption rate is not as efficient as the high end powders and that is directly reflected by price.

Your 40-45g protein intake at one sitting is unsubstantiated. It's a myth, ask any World Class bodybuilder like Ken Cutler or Ronnie Coleman if they worry about how much protein they take in a meal. You would be laughed out of the gym!

Creatine Ethyl Ester: Keep hyping this product, and I'll keep taking my creatine monohydrate which is backed by over a decade of results. Yours is backed by nothing but hype and no study has ever proven this stuff to work. Period. I'm not wasting my money on sht that doesn't have a proven track record, maybe you feel comfortable doing so - more power to ya.

Any more info and I'll have to start charging by the hour (certified trainer). :laugh:

 

[tcsenter]

Hi guys, I've been bodybuilding for about 4 months now with excellent results. I am currently 5'11 160lbs with 8% body fat. I am still growing at only 16yrs old.

16 years old. lol!

I built lean muscle mass just straining on the toilet or getting out of bed at 16 years of age. There must really be something wrong genetically if a 16 year-old male can't quickly build muscle by working out three days a week while living on Mt. Dew and Slim Jims. It doesn't get any easier than that stage of development, with hormones raging naturally.

On Edit: That said, more power to ya. Hopefully you develop good habits that you will carry into your adult life.

 

[alimoalem]

Originally posted by: TerranForces
I see a lot of questions on here asking about how to get bigger. Most of the time the answers are very misinforming.

did they ever specify exactly what they wanted bigger?

 

[TerranForces]

tcsenter, you're right about it being easier when you are younger. The optimal age is 16-22 from what I've read. It's exagerrated a little bit though, you need a good diet to get anywhere. My long term goal is to be about 6'1" 200lbs 8% BF. I'll get some pics up in a few weeks.

 

[TerranForces]

BTW Sp33, I know you disagree with me about AST's site. Check out this thread with 226 people who also believe that it is fraudulent.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1047

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TerranForces
BTW Sp33, I know you disagree with me about AST's site. Check out this thread with 226 people who also believe that it is fraudulent.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1047

I know zip about pro hormones (other than what I learned in advanced A&P classes) and andro: I don't use hormones, I'm 100% natural other than some supp's. Hence, I don't care about some guy who is trying to smear AST publically. He provided a study that contradicts a claim of AST, so what? Anyone can find a contrary study to at least one of the hundreds of products that EAS, Muscletech, MET-RX, AST, etc sells. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things, especially on a niche product like a hormone.

Did you read that whole thread? Most of the posts are from "Big Cat", aka "clever AST Troll" (as the other posters at the end refer to him, and wonder why he has disappeared). a few of the posts are from people who are blindly following Mr. Cat's trolling of AST, and the rest are posts about people who are telling you they've tried MAX-OT and AST Products with great results. Just like I have. Dude, you can believe someone who has tried AST's stuff (whey, glutamine, and Creatine), or a guy who calls himself "Big Cat" and advocates ZMA use. On that tangent, how many pro bodybuilders are taking ZMA? None that I know of man... why? Because it doesn't work. IF it did illicit the results that many companies claimed at the time (and were shady fly by night companies who aren't here today), then everyone would be on it at the gym. It's hard to take this guy seriously.

Moving on: Big Cat even admits that AST VP2 is a "great protein", after complaining that it's too expensive and they're ripping people off, citing wholesale protein distributors like proteinfactory.com as a comparison (and he was 100% serious about it). AST has atheletes to sponsor, distribution costs, research costs, and a hell of a lot more marketing than a dot com company like proteinfactory since proteinfactory only sells direct (they have no overhead). Of course it's going to cost more! It's like comparing buying a pair of custom made sneaks online (that aren't brand name) and buying a pair of Nike's (same style/material as the non brand) at Foot Locker. But that's why you have a choice of what protein to buy, obviously not everyone can afford the highest quality stuff, let alone buy a retail brand of it.

Even funnier, Big Cat even admits that MAX-OT works. Yet most of his queries to AST are inflammatory statements to Paul Delia, and he will complain that AST didn't provide him a medical paper with 10 references (I'm exaggerating obviously) to back any and all of Mr. Delia's statements. Bottom line is, Paul Delia has his degrees, this clown is still practicing biology in college (or so he says), claiming he is the next bodybuilding genius. I've met many clones of this guy in my lifetime, they shouldn't quit their day job. Hell, even a guy (Beast) from that thread who tried MAX-OT and Big Cat's program said MAX-OT is better.

On a sidenote, I started powerlifting again, and dam it feels good. Not gonna go crazy (schedule is too busy to do a 5 day/wk regimen), but just enough to bulk up and shred so I can post some pics soon.

 

[TerranForces]

So for the record can we leave it at this:

Vp2 works well, but is very expensive.
Max-Ot is a solid program
AST favors their own products in reports, like every company
They take an old school approach to avoid the hype

I am on a budget obviously, so here was my latest order which just arrived a few days ago.

Universal Storm
On Whey
NOw FIsh Oil
NOw Green Tea
NOw Vit-MIn 75+

The results have been insane so far, I upped every lift by at least 5lbs this week. MIght be placebo though. Storm is a great product. It contains a blend of creatine mono, tri-creatine malate, and magnesium creatine chelate along with an energy blend of Taurine and No precursers. The NOw products are good as usual. I saw another report on the ON Whey which said its concentration is between 82-92% Still not bad for its price and BCAA content.

I started off really quick, but it actually seems like the gains are getting progressively better. I am gaining faster than I ever have. BTW, I got my order in under 48 hours from www.bulknutrition.com with the cheapest $5 shipping. Awesome site.

 

[ColdFusion718]

nice guide

 

[TerranForces]

bump

 

[StevenMara]

Ok, I am almost 18, I weigh abour 140 and I am about 6'. My average meals are as follows: 2 bowls of Corn Chex for breakfast, just a normal chicken or turkey sliced meat sandwich for lunch (with milk), for supper I eat a lot of different stuff, but it's stuff like chicken noodle soup, a couple hamburgers, or a couple fried egg sandwiches (with milk). I try to eat a lot, but I just can't force myself to eat. I'm not anorexic or anything, but I can't eat when I'm not hungry.

So my question is: how much weight (I don't care if it is muscle or not) do you think I could gain in a month if I ate like I normally do? And what 1 supplement would you recommend, because I don't have enough money to buy all of them.

Also, I don't lift weights now, but we have a home gym thing in our basement for the basic lifts. So I would be using that, I'm definitely not going to our school gym, because I would just look dumb.

 

[Sukhoi]

What is the danger level with protein intake in regards to kidney stones? For most people is it some crazy number like a sustained 5 g/lb of protein per day? I'm a hard gainer and trying to get as much protein as reasonably possible (probably around 1.25 g/lb/day right now), but I'm worried about health problems from overdoing it.

I'm 6'1" 161 lbs if it matters.

 

[necine]

Originally posted by: Sukhoi
What is the danger level with protein intake in regards to kidney stones? For most people is it some crazy number like a sustained 5 g/lb of protein per day? I'm a hard gainer and trying to get as much protein as reasonably possible (probably around 1.25 g/lb/day right now), but I'm worried about health problems from overdoing it.

I'm 6'1" 161 lbs if it matters.

Wow... your skinny. I'm 5'8" 145

 

[Sukhoi]

Originally posted by: necine

Originally posted by: Sukhoi
What is the danger level with protein intake in regards to kidney stones? For most people is it some crazy number like a sustained 5 g/lb of protein per day? I'm a hard gainer and trying to get as much protein as reasonably possible (probably around 1.25 g/lb/day right now), but I'm worried about health problems from overdoing it.

I'm 6'1" 161 lbs if it matters.

Wow... your skinny. I'm 5'8" 145

Heh yeah I am. I was 145 lbs about 9 months ago so I've gained quite a bit recently. I also randomly grew a full inch last year after being 6'0" for years.

After reading at bodybuilding.com it doesn't seem like there is any issue with 2 g/lb/day. I guess it's time to knock out the Kool-Aid and drink more milk. But for all these articles, what is considered a "very high" protein intake? I can't find anything with numbers.