Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[M0RPH]

Do you need me to link you Zimmermans 911 call? He was chasing the kid through the streets at night with a loaded gun before ever saying one word to the kid, just following him slowly in his vehicle... when the kid ran, Z exited and a foot chase ensued. He did not kindly walk up to him and ask him his name. Where are you hearing this account?

From this CNN article:

Attorneys for the Martin family say that a girl who was on the phone with the teenager near the time of the shooting, who does not wish to be identified, said Martin told her someone was following him. The girl could hear Zimmerman ask Martin his name and why he was there, the attorneys said.

 

[soundforbjt]

No, but I'm trying to figure out how someone coming up to you and asking your name and why you are here turns into a knockdown brawl and shooting.

He didn't ask his name, he did ask what he was doing there. This kid was followed, then chased by a larger man in no uniform, with no authority (other than he thought he was a neighborhood watch captain, even though he never registered with them) and confronts a kid scared for his life. What would you do? What would any of us do? We don't know unless we were in the same exact situation.

 

[waggy]

People want to say that J was afraid for his safety because some stranger was coming after him. But that really doesn't mesh with the account of the girl on the phone. If a bad guy is coming after you, they are gonna jump you @ass. They are not gonna stop and ask, 'what's your name and why are you here?'

maybe not.

but a 17 yr okd kid who is small (yes he is small no matter what you all want to think) getting chased by a huge man is scarry. first the guy fallowed him in a car then chased after him.

damn really WTF do people want the kid to do? he was running home from it.

 

[umbrella39]

Trayvon never mentions Z having a gun during the conversation either. Sorta goes against the chasing him all over the neighborhood with a loaded gun.

So he didn't have a gun on him now?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

No, but I'm trying to figure out how someone coming up to you and asking your name and why you are here turns into a knockdown brawl and shooting.

Seriously? It seems to me there are any number of obvious possible scenarios which could lead to that.

Obviously we don't know conclusively what occurred at this point, but based on the discussion Mr. Martin was having with his friend/girlfriend, it doesn't sound likely that Mr. Zimmerman ever simply walked up to Mr. Martin and asked his name. In fact, it sounds as though Mr. Martin was afraid because Mr. Zimmerman was pursuing him for no apparent reason, and tried to get away from him, first by walking and later by running. Zimmerman, presumably, viewed that as suspicious and pursued him.

By the time they met, Zimmerman was likely overexcited and thought he was apprehending a real criminal, and Mr. Martin thought he was dealing with a crazy kidnapper/rapist/God knows what. Clearly some kind of physical conflict ensued, and it ended with Mr. Martin being shot.

 

[micrometers]

People want to say that J was afraid for his safety because some stranger was coming after him. But that really doesn't mesh with the account of the girl on the phone. If a bad guy is coming after you, they are gonna jump you @ass. They are not gonna stop and ask, 'what's your name and why are you here?'

benefit of hindsight. T had more than reasonable fear for his safety.

 

[M0RPH]

is there a reason you are leaving out the part where an armed Zimmerman followed the kid both in a car and on foot?

if someone did that to you at night, you would be scared shitless.

But i the person stops and asks me 'whats your name and why are you here?', I'm gonna say oh damn, it's just some neighborhood watch thing. If someone is gonna mug me they are not gonna stop to ask my name lol..

 

[FS]

slur =/= hate crime.

Pretend that...you get in a bar fight with a minority guy. You're fighting over a girl. He punches you. You get mad. You insult him.

The fight is over a girl. You do not target the other guy because he is a minority. But once you find yourself in conflict with a minority, in your anger you might slip some trash talk.

Now, in this case, I don't really believe Z is racist because he chooses to live in a racially mixed neighborhood and he has many black relatives that he likely interacts with at family gatherings.

He was still on the phone with the 911 operator when he said that. What heat of the moment are you talking about? What conflict situation, huh? ... remember, it's before they even are face to face with each other. The distance/separation alone makes your analogies useless.

PS: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33167712&postcount=2859

 

[Capt Caveman]

maybe not.

but a 17 yr okd kid who is small (yes he is small no matter what you all want to think) getting chased by a huge man is scarry. first the guy fallowed him in a car then chased after him.

damn really WTF do people want the kid to do? he was running home from it.

If it's dark in a supposed unsafe area and I notice some car following me, I'm thinking I'm going get jacked or worse, I'm running. Shit, he got out of his car and is coming after me. Yes, I'm scared for my life.

 

[micrometers]

So he didn't have a gun on him now?

It more fits with the story about Z being an idiot instead of being an evil racist murderer.

 

[blankslate]

Do you need me to link you Zimmermans 911 call? He was chasing the kid through the streets at night with a loaded gun before ever saying one word to the kid, just following him slowly in his vehicle... when the kid ran, Z exited and a foot chase ensued. He did not kindly walk up to him and ask him his name. Where are you hearing this account?

here is the relevant information.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2i9s4He5I4

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."



Trayvon Martin was in fear for his safety because some cowboy wanted to be a hero. He had no idea who Mr. Zimmerman was because he didn't identify himself.

 

[umbrella39]

From this CNN article:

Again, do you need me to link to you the important call we can hear, the one where Zimmerman never speaks to Martin, just exits his car and chases him on foot? You are speaking about a 2nd encounter after Martin was able to shake the very out of breath Zimmerman on the 911 call... highly doubt after Zimmerman chased the kid and lost him some pleasantries were exchanged when he caught up with him.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So he didn't have a gun on him now?

No, he was carrying it concealed. There have been many in here saying that Trayvon saw the gun and that's he attacked Zimmerman.

 

[Capt Caveman]

But i the person stops and asks me 'whats your name and why are you here?', I'm gonna say oh damn, it's just some neighborhood watch thing. If someone is gonna mug me they are not gonna stop to ask my name lol..

:biggrin:

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

slur =/= hate crime.

Pretend that...you get in a bar fight with a minority guy. You're fighting over a girl. He punches you. You get mad. You insult him.

The fight is over a girl. You do not target the other guy because he is a minority. But once you find yourself in conflict with a minority, in your anger you might slip some trash talk. in this case, the trash talk is incidental to the conflict.

Now, in this case, I don't really believe Z is racist because he chooses to live in a racially mixed neighborhood and he has many black relatives that he likely interacts with at family gatherings.

The scenario you are describing is entirely different from this, in that Zimmerman initiated a pursuit of Mr. Martin after (supposedly) saying "my excellent compatriot." His use of a racial slur (if it's true) isn't something that happened in the heat of the moment during a preexisting fight.

I have no idea whether the "facts" you have posted about Mr. Zimmerman are true - they came from his father, who is clearly biased and seemingly wrong in some material respects (in that he claims his son never pursued Mr. Martin).

We still don't know what happened, and prior to the "my excellent compatriot" revelation I have repeatedly said I don't see Zimmerman's behavior in this case as motivated by racism. If he said "my excellent compatriot," however, that would change my mind. Obviously you are free to feel differently.

 

[micrometers]

He was still on the phone with the 911 operator when he said that. What heat of the moment are you talking about? What conflict situation, huh? ... remember, it's before they even are face to face with each other. The distance/separation alone makes your analogies useless.

PS: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33167712&postcount=2859

Look, in Z's mind, T could have been an armed robber who was out to do some real harm in the area. I have heard stories of teenage boys who break into homes and rape women for instance, and so Z was protecting his neighborhood.

Z was wrong in his suspicion. But he was reasonable I believe.

 

[M0RPH]

Again, do you need me to link to you the important call we can hear, the one where Zimmerman never speaks to Martin, just exits his car and chases him on foot? You are speaking about a 2nd encounter after Martin was able to shake the very out of breath Zimmerman on the 911 call... highly doubt after Zimmerman chased the kid and lost him some pleasantries were exchanged when he caught up with him.

And I'm saying we now have a first hand account of the inital encounter between the two. THE GIRL WAS ON THE PHONE AND HEARD IT. this is coming from the kid's lawyers!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Attorneys for the Martin family say that a girl who was on the phone with the teenager near the time of the shooting, who does not wish to be identified, said Martin told her someone was following him. The girl could hear Zimmerman ask Martin his name and why he was there, the attorneys said.

 

[alien42]

But i the person stops and asks me 'whats your name and why are you here?', I'm gonna say oh damn, it's just some neighborhood watch thing. If someone is gonna mug me they are not gonna stop to ask my name lol..

she also stated that T asked Z why he was following him. why did Z not identify himself as neighborhood watch?

 

[umbrella39]

here is the relevant information.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2i9s4He5I4

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."



Trayvon Martin was in fear for his safety because some cowboy wanted to be a hero. He had no idea who Mr. Zimmerman was because he didn't identify himself.

And here and the important parts that occurred before the 2nd meeting took place"


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/video...Trayvon-Martin

No 1 on 1 conversation takes place between Z and M when Z was still in the car...

Talking to dispatcher these bleep always get away (Martin is running away on foot)

at 1:45 he exits car (door shut)

at 1:50 you can start to hear his breathing now, more often and louder as he chases on foot

at 1:55 are you following him?

at 1:56 yep

at 1:57 ok we don't need you to do that

at 1:59 ok

now all you hear is him breathing even louder and faster and running for 10 seconds before dispatcher asks his name...

Z exited and chased. There was no conversation nor conflict at the car or we'd have heard it all on the call but what we did hear which was Z exiting, running after, and breathing heavy.

Z caught up with him shortly thereafter and a confrontation ensued... This kid rightfully should have been in fear for his life at this point...

Not the other way around...........

 

[micrometers]

The scenario you are describing is entirely different from this, in that Zimmerman initiated a pursuit of Mr. Martin after (supposedly) saying "my excellent compatriot." His use of a racial slur (if it's true) isn't something that happened in the heat of the moment during a preexisting fight.

I have no idea whether the "facts" you have posted about Mr. Zimmerman are true - they came from his father, who is clearly biased and seemingly wrong in some material respects (in that he claims his son never pursued Mr. Martin).

We still don't know what happened, and prior to the "my excellent compatriot" revelation I have repeatedly said I don't see Zimmerman's behavior in this case as motivated by racism. If he said "my excellent compatriot," however, that would change my mind. Obviously you are free to feel differently.

Pursuit was started when he exited vehicle.

the "my excellent compatriot" remark came while he was still moving.

Yes, it is important, but it is not enough to tip the scales IMO.

 

[umbrella39]

And I'm saying we now have a first hand account of the inital encounter between the two. THE GIRL WAS ON THE PHONE AND HEARD IT. this is coming from the kid's lawyers!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Attorneys for the Martin family say that a girl who was on the phone with the teenager near the time of the shooting, who does not wish to be identified, said Martin told her someone was following him. The girl could hear Zimmerman ask Martin his name and why he was there, the attorneys said.

No, you have a first hand acccount of the 2nd encounter.

The first encounter is documented in Zimmermans 911 call...

You are speaking about after he had run away and lost him the first time.

I am sure the lawyers will put up a time line for all to see...

 

[Capt Caveman]

From this CNN article:

Your quote is not in that article you linked.

 

[waggy]

If it's dark in a supposed unsafe area and I notice some car following me, I'm thinking I'm going get jacked or worse, I'm running. Shit, he got out of his car and is coming after me. Yes, I'm scared for my life.

no shit.

also people are forgetting this is a 140lb 17 yr old KID. not a hardened "hoodrat" or "gang banger" or whatever racist terms alky and spider like to use.


i don't blame him for being scared shitless when chased. Then have someone grab you? yeah..

 

[M0RPH]

No, you have a first hand acccount of the 2nd encounter.

The first encounter is documented in Zimmermans 911 call...

You are speaking about after he had run away and lost him the first time.

I am sure the lawyers will put up a time line for all to see...

I know all about the first encounter. He saw what he thought was a suspicious person and followed him.

And I'm saying all of that doesn't matter, because when Z finally did catch up with the kid, he did not jump him, he asked him what was his name and why was he there. So even if the kid was scared about someone following him, if someone is just looking to jump your ass, they are not gonna stop to ask your name. You still haven't addressed my point here.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I know all about the first encounter. He saw what he thought was a suspicious person and followed him.

And I'm saying all of that doesn't matter, because when Z finally did catch up with the kid, he did not jump him, he asked him what was his name and why was he there. So even if the kid was scared about someone following him, if someone is just looking to jump your ass, they are not gonna stop to ask your name. You still haven't addressed my point here.

Again, no where in your link does it state that Zimmerman asked what his name was. From your link:

The girl heard someone ask Martin what he was doing, and heard Martin ask why the person was following him, Crump said. The girl then got the impression that there was an altercation in which the earpiece fell out of Martin's ear and the phone went out, Crump said.