Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Geosurface]

I don't have a problem with it really as martins past prior to the 26th simply doesn't matter at all in the case.

Oh, I'm not so sure...

frankly I think if we see details in his school records pertaining to drug use and drug selling on school grounds, it makes it seem substantially less paranoid/crazy than many have portrayed it when GZ said "he looks like he's on drugs or something"

and I think if we see details about vandalizing school property, having a bag full of jewelry he refused to explain and gave up to officials without protest, along with a modified screwdriver that they felt was a burglary tool... and other similar behaviors none of us have heard about yet... and an obscene number of absences, and long ass suspensions... I think it makes GZ thinking he might be a burglar or other type of criminal a lot less crazy/paranoid/delusional/racist than a lot of people currently believe.

I think if we see stuff about fights on school property as portrayed in the youtube video on TM's account that has been taken down since, or any sort of other reports of TM being violent at school... especially if there's anything about that bus driver incident, I think it becomes a lot more believable than it currently is for many people, that TM would haul off and assault a stranger for no good reason.

So, will it be allowed in court? Probably not. Is it fair game to put it out in the public eye when GZ's entire life has been ruined and his reputation dragged through the mud and all his dirty laundry aired? Abso-fucking-lutely.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Asking for them and being able to present them in court are very different.

I think there is no way in hell it's allowed as evidence. I suspect MOM knows this, and wants it out for public opinion.

I don't have a problem with it really as martins past prior to the 26th simply doesn't matter at all in the case.

State has to prove murder, defense taking the posture of trying to show Martin as capable of violence actually erodes its position.

It will depend on whether the judge deems portions of TM's recent past is relevant to the case. I think if the records show he has tendencies to respond with violence within the last year it could actually boost GZ's case of self defense.

 

[lotus503]

It will depend on whether the judge deems portions of TM's recent past is relevant to the case. I think if the records show he has tendencies to respond with violence within the last year it could actually boost GZ's case of self defense.

But the state has to prove murder, Martin having a history of violence has no bearing on that.

The defense in my opinion is on a slippery slope taking that avenue.
As it appears trying to prove defense vs state proving murder.

 

[spidey07]

At immunity trial defense presents a preponderance of evidence showing self defense. Martins tendency for violence would be part of that as would history of criminal behavior and drugs.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

But the state has to prove murder, Martin having a history of violence has no bearing on that.

The defense in my opinion is on a slippery slope taking that avenue.
As it appears trying to prove defense vs state proving murder.

The state must disprove self defense as well and any tendencies TM may have towards responding to a situation with violence would hurt their ability to do so

 

[Tom]

Oh, I'm not so sure...

frankly I think if we see details in his school records pertaining to drug use and drug selling on school grounds, it makes it seem substantially less paranoid/crazy than many have portrayed it when GZ said "he looks like he's on drugs or something"

and I think if we see details about vandalizing school property, having a bag full of jewelry he refused to explain and gave up to officials without protest, along with a modified screwdriver that they felt was a burglary tool... and other similar behaviors none of us have heard about yet... and an obscene number of absences, and long ass suspensions... I think it makes GZ thinking he might be a burglar or other type of criminal a lot less crazy/paranoid/delusional/racist than a lot of people currently believe.

I think if we see stuff about fights on school property as portrayed in the youtube video on TM's account that has been taken down since, or any sort of other reports of TM being violent at school... especially if there's anything about that bus driver incident, I think it becomes a lot more believable than it currently is for many people, that TM would haul off and assault a stranger for no good reason.

So, will it be allowed in court? Probably not. Is it fair game to put it out in the public eye when GZ's entire life has been ruined and his reputation dragged through the mud and all his dirty laundry aired? Abso-fucking-lutely.

What if it doesn't show all that ?

 

[Geosurface]

What if it doesn't show all that ?

Then I'll have some crow to eat.

But all the evidence from THAT NIGHT will still show self-defense, clearly.

 

[lotus503]

At immunity trial defense presents a preponderance of evidence showing self defense. Martins tendency for violence would be part of that as would history of criminal behavior and drugs.

That actually makes sense, I could see Martina past relevant at immunity hearing where the defense has burden of proof.

 

[soundforbjt]

When has it been reported (or even hinted) that TM was ever violent in any way at school? Watching and commenting on a schoolyard fight is not is not a violent act.

Other than the bit about swinging on a bus driver (which I doubt is true), but I could be wrong.

 

[Geosurface]

Why do you doubt the bus driver thing is true?

His cousin certainly believed it was true. Trayvon didn't correct him.

My guess is you doubt it simply and only because it undermines your perception of TM as innocent.

 

[lotus503]

Why do you doubt the bus driver thing is true?

His cousin certainly believed it was true. Trayvon didn't correct him.

My guess is you doubt it simply and only because it undermines your perception of TM as innocent.

It's not whether it's true or not, it's that a social networking post by his cousin is in no way enough evidence to say its true. If it was backed by numerous posts, police report anything it may carry weight, absence of that it's rumor.

 

[Geosurface]

I submit to you that if you're not the kind of person who goes around hitting people for no reason, you never end up with a post like that on your twitter or facebook.

Rumor or not, mistake or not. It was posted. It was posted in a way that did not express great disbelief at the prospect.

His cousin also said he believed TM had beaten up that cracka (GZ) and that GZ shot him because he was mad he had "them bangaz" put to him by a young awesome dude, etc etc.

He also said "what else can you expect from a Martin?"

unrestrained violence was expected Trayvon behavior by those who knew him best.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I submit to you that if you're not the kind of person who goes around hitting people for no reason, you never end up with a post like that on your twitter or facebook.

Rumor or not, mistake or not. It was posted. It was posted in a way that did not express great disbelief at the prospect.

His cousin also said he believed TM had beaten up that cracka (GZ) and that GZ shot him because he was mad he had "them bangaz" put to him by a young awesome dude, etc etc.

He also said "what else can you expect from a Martin?"

unrestrained violence was expected Trayvon behavior by those who knew him best.

Love to remind you that not everything posted on a internet social network can be taken as truth, but if the cousin's remarks bolster your illusions, go to it. Just don't expect it to be taken as gospel by anyone else.

 

[TerryMathews]

Love to remind you that not everything posted on a internet social network can be taken as truth, but if the cousin's remarks bolster your illusions, go to it. Just don't expect it to be taken as gospel by anyone else.

Maybe not taken as gospel, but it is plausible that it is true. I'm sure if it's true, it's confirmable via other means.

 

[EagleKeeper]

When has it been reported (or even hinted) that TM was ever violent in any way at school? Watching and commenting on a schoolyard fight is not is not a violent act.

Other than the bit about swinging on a bus driver (which I doubt is true), but I could be wrong.

Every wonder why he was transferred from a local school to a different school when his home address did not change?

 

[EagleKeeper]

The release of Martin's info MAY clear up some of the confusion on the jewelry also

 

[lotus503]

Maybe not taken as gospel, but it is plausible that it is true. I'm sure if it's true, it's confirmable via other means.

So you agree with posting something plausible as fact? Which is what Geo, spatial and alky have done with the bus driver story.

 

[TerryMathews]

So you agree with posting something plausible as fact? Which is what Geo, spatial and alky have done with the bus driver story.

And JKing, sound, emperus, and airdata have done the same things with information about Zimmerman.

You're allowed to disbelieve it, just as they're allowed to believe it. It is, however, disingenuous to claim because it's not verified that it CAN'T be true. For both sides.

Neither man was a saint or "squeaky clean".

 

[SpatiallyAware]

And JKing, sound, emperus, and airdata have done the same things with information about Zimmerman.

You're allowed to disbelieve it, just as they're allowed to believe it. It is, however, disingenuous to claim because it's not verified that it CAN'T be true. For both sides.

Neither man was a saint or "squeaky clean".

I disagree, in the ~7 years leading up to this incident zimmerman was absolutely squeeky clean; a pillar of his community. Perhaps not the smartest guy on the block, but certainly one of good character.

From what we know and how he chose to represent himself, trayvon was a thug, a thief, a young man who went down the wrong path which led him directly to where he is today.


Note that if this happened while zimmerman was going through his "thug phase" I would say the exact same things about him.

 

[TerryMathews]

I disagree, in the ~7 years leading up to this incident zimmerman was absolutely squeeky clean; a pillar of his community. Perhaps not the smartest guy on the block, but certainly one of good character.

From what we know and how he chose to represent himself, trayvon was a thug, a thief, a young man who went down the wrong path which led him directly to where he is today.


Note that if this happened while zimmerman was going through his "thug phase" I would say the exact same things about him.

I intentionally didn't set timeframes for either man. The point to my post (once again) is that we should deal with the pasts of both men consistently.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I intentionally didn't set timeframes for either man. The point to my post (once again) is that we should deal with the pasts of both men consistently.

I totally agree, and when we have a dispute as to what happened that night (primarily being that zimmerman has accused trayvon of attacking him) then their history immediately before the event is hugely relevant.


We have zimmerman, who had some troubles as a teen but for the past 7 years was literally a model citizen. (again, for the crumptonites, if this all happened while zimmerman was going through his thug phase I would be signing a different tune). He routinely supported victim's rights, he volunteered, he was the neighborhood watch guy.......

...Then we have trayvon, who was directly in the middle of all sorts of problems from burglary to being kicked out of schools, etc etc etc. He was in the middle of some sort of out of school suspension during the very night that this happened. This makes trayvon's school records very important (particularly considering how much zimmerman's past was picked apart by the race baiters)

In my mind, dealing with their "histories" exactly the same, it appears much more likely that trayvon attacked zimmerman.

 

[soundforbjt]

It's NEVER been proven that Trayvon was a burglar and Z's past problems ARE documented and were while he was an adult, not a teen.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

It's NEVER been proven that Trayvon was a burglar and Z's past problems ARE documented and were while he was an adult, not a teen.

Keep on with the diatribe.. No kidding, anyone who has followed this thread knows exactly the type of kid trayvon was. He was a burglar, he got caught with stolen valuable jewelry and burglary equipment.

Trayvon's problems are documented too, but because he was a minor the crumptonite crew was able to get everything sealed or pulled. ....until Wednesday, at least.

Like I said, everyone who is following this knows the facts. In >5 years leading up to this event zimmerman was a model citizen.

In the 5 months leading up to this event trayvon was a kid with a lot of very serious problems.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Keep on with the diatribe.. No kidding, anyone who has followed this thread knows exactly the type of kid trayvon was. He was a burglar, he got caught with stolen valuable jewelry and burglary equipment.

Trayvon's problems are documented too, but because he was a minor the crumptonite crew was able to get everything sealed or pulled. ....until Wednesday, at least.

Like I said, everyone who is following this knows the facts. In >5 years leading up to this event zimmerman was a model citizen.

In the 5 months leading up to this event trayvon was a kid with a lot of very serious problems.

:biggrin:

 

[WHAMPOM]

Maybe not taken as gospel, but it is plausible that it is true. I'm sure if it's true, it's confirmable via other means.

But was it congratulations or a question posted by the "cousin"? Or ridicule for not swinging on a bus driver, but what ever it was about it did not rate a "yes, no or ?HUH?" back from Trayvon.

Also "swinging on a bus driver" may just be slang for putting the moves on a ugly/gay girl.