Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Running would just make him appear guilty of something.
Agreed, although it would probably have saved his life.

This thread is growing at a speed faster than I cared to follow, but I saw a post in another forum that I browse which expresses how I feel about this issue much more eloquently than I can.


"Yes. He should be condemned for what he did. He should have stayed in his car. He took action against an individual on a public street who was walking home from the store. That individual is now dead. Zimmerman may not be criminally liable. The chain of events that starts with him patrolling the neighborhood in his car and ends with a dead kid may in fact, have enough attenuation in time and enough aggression on the part of the kid to prevent criminal charges against Zimmerman. None of us know for sure one way or the other, and it is clear that with the national attention being paid to this incident, there will be a full vetting of the facts.

All of that, however, is to lose sight of the primary point here. Zimmerman, who had no police authority whatsoever, deliberately started a chain of events that ended with the death of a kid who went out at half time for skittles. According to the unredacted tape posted earlier, Zimmerman doesn't get out of his vehicle until after he says "oh shit, he's running." He then gets out and pursues the kid.

Why? The kid took off. Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to go find the kid. Why? The kid has a right to be on the street there. What possible justification does Zimmerman have for doing this. He's called the police. They are on their way. The police dispatcher has recommended that he not pursue. He has his vehicle and could continue to cruise around in it if he wanted to. Zimmerman had every ability to just give up at that point. He even says that he lost sight of the kid. Fine. At that point, wait for the police, make a report and be done with it. But he doesn't do that. He keeps going. It's a public area. It's not Zimmerman's job to secure it. It's not Zimmerman's private property.

Zimmerman made a whole series of really bad decisions. Because of those decisions a kid is dead. Even if that isn't criminal, it's whole buckets of wrong, and thus, he should be condemned.

If anyone posted a story here that he had acted like Zimmerman did, that person would be roundly screamed at by the membership. In fact, if you think back, we had a thread a couple of months ago where someone bragged that they had confronted a snooper at their girlfriend's apartment and that he ran off, but our intrepid hero had his Kimber in his hand and was prepared to use it. We beat that guy like a $5 mule for being an asshat.

Zimmerman behaved like a fool with tragic consequences. He was a fool with a gun, and like it or not, that affects all of us negatively."

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"No, not really. Nope, I don't feel better at all. I am trying to understand why some posters think this is ok or somehow not a big deal. I live in central Florida, not too far from Sanford and I can assure you that it is a huge deal here.

I don't follow why, when Zimmerman did so many stupid things and a kid ended up dead, so many posters in this thread think it's ok.

I haven't advocated that he be arrested, charged or convicted of anything. I have expressly noted that until the investigation is completed, and possibly not even then, will there be sufficient hard evidence to charge him with a crime. I have not called him a racist even though certain of his tape recorded statements may lead to that supposition. I have called him an over-zealous, cop wannabe idiot who exceeded any possible authority he had. I have accused him of making bad decisions at virtually every stage of this tragedy. Those bad decisions lead to the death of a human being.

You might note that I have also not referred to the victim as an "innocent kid". I have no idea if the kid is innocent or not. I don't know if the kid initiated contact with Zimmerman after he first ran away and Zimmerman went looking for him. I don't know what happened at the final confrontation at all.

And I don't need to know, because this situation should never have gotten to the final confrontation. If Zimmerman had behaved in a responsible way, he would just be an irritating neighborhood watch weenie who called 911 46 times in the prior year.

This case is a tragedy. This kid had no police record. He was returning to the home of his father's girlfriend to watch the remainder of the NBA All-Star Game with his dad. He's dead. As the Clash would say, "dead for ever" and he shouldn't be.

We all get caught up in gun rights and gun advocacy and we all want the right to defend ourselves and our property. I agree with these rights and exercise them myself. But we won't have these rights for long if we are cavalier about the impact of situations like this on the voting public.

I guess part of the issue is that I see what Zimmerman did as being fundamentally indefensible even if technically legal. I also have kids in their mid to late teens and I would hate to have them end up dead from a completely avoidable situation. By his actions, Zimmerman caused a tragedy, killing an apparently decent kid who was on his way to spend time with his family.

In addition to the fact that a kid is dead and the unbearable pain the deceased's family must be going through, I think that this will have a negative effect on gun laws and gun rights in Florida. We almost got open carry last year and things like this won't help. Insurance companies will now be all over homeowner associations concerning things like neighborhood watch patrols. There may well be legislation coming about neighborhood watch patrols. There will probably be legislation introduced to weaken the stand your ground law. None of this is good and all of it is a result of bad decision making."
That is indeed well put, especially
Zimmerman made a whole series of really bad decisions. Because of those decisions a kid is dead. Even if that isn't criminal, it's whole buckets of wrong, and thus, he should be condemned.
That to me is the essence of the issue, whether or not Zimmerman is found criminally and/or civilly liable. I'll let the investigations determine whether Zimmerman is 100% responsible or some lesser percentage, but I see no plausible scenario where he doesn't bear by far the greater part of responsibility. Whereas although a lot of lives have been shattered, Zimmerman's included, Treyvon Martin's was ended.
 
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OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
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Apparently the interview was done through leading questions

How do "we" know that to be fact? Did the police release documents detailing the Q&A session between the narcotics detective and Zimmerman? I think there has only been speculation that there COULD have been "leading questions" used, as opposed to the answers themselves being released to show that they do appear to be leading.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
The problem is that the police only get one chance to perform an initial investigation. The first interview of a suspect is key, and they let a narcotics detective interview Mr. Zimmerman. Apparently the interview was done through leading questions, which are intrinsically suggestive and thus ineffective at eliciting information. The police did not request blood or breath samples, meaning we can't know whether Zimmerman was under the influence of substances. The police also did not examine Zimmerman's car for the presence of drugs or open containers. These are not things that can now be corrected through further investigation. It also appears the police failed to listen closely to Zimmerman's initial 911 call, and thus missed the "fucking coons" comment. None of these strike me as the hallmarks of a brilliant investigation.

Also, add Martin's cell phone that the Police did not follow-up to determine if any calls had been made from it. If they had, it may have given them important information in determining if Zimmerman's story was truthful.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
I guess it's your opinion that it was a half assed investigstion, but it appears to still be going on?? Perhaps you, like so many other posters here are have already dexcided the Z is guilty?

As you said, it's going to be up to a grand jury or a court to decide.

Only going on b/c of Martin's family not being satisfied with the Sanford Police investigation which the Sanford Police have stated was a thorough investigation.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Also, add Martin's cell phone that the Police did not follow-up to determine if any calls had been made from it. If they had, it may have given them important information in determining if Zimmerman's story was truthful.

Hell, they didn't even check the neighborhood to see if anybody was missing a child. They already assumed Trayvon was just a criminal who should've been there.
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
24
81
Only going on b/c of Martin's family not being satisfied with the Sanford Police investigation which the Sanford Police have stated was a thorough investigation.

Martin's family isn't satisfied with the investigation because Zimmerman wasn't arrested, whether an arrest was warranted or not. Also, the full details of the investigation have yet to be released. It's too early to make a judgement on whether or not the investigation was "thorough". Just because it didn't reach a popular conclusion does not indicate it wasn't a thorough investigation.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Only going on b/c of Martin's family not being satisfied with the Sanford Police investigation which the Sanford Police have stated was a thorough investigation.
The reason it's still ongoing is that a young black man was gunned down by a white man; that raises questions about our society and taps resources that a young white man being gunned down by a black man doesn't, even though the young white man's family would be equally adamant in demanding justice and equally unsatisfied that their son's killer walks free.

And I don't think any reasonable person can doubt that it was a half-assed investigation, or that had Martin been a white kid, the investigation would probably have been more thorough.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Hell, they didn't even check the neighborhood to see if anybody was missing a child. They already assumed Trayvon was just a criminal who should've been there.
Exactly. Hard to imagine the same level of complacency had Martin been an unarmed white kid gunned down in a gated community.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Martin's family isn't satisfied with the investigation because Zimmerman wasn't arrested, whether an arrest was warranted or not. Also, the full details of the investigation have yet to be released. It's too early to make a judgement on whether or not the investigation was "thorough". Just because it didn't reach a popular conclusion does not indicate it wasn't a thorough investigation.

You mean like the Police not knowing that Martin was on his phone with his GF when the incident occurred?
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
24
81
Hell, they didn't even check the neighborhood to see if anybody was missing a child. They already assumed Trayvon was just a criminal who should've been there.

I watched a video clip where the attorney representing Trayvon's family mentioned that, and it did strike me as odd. The police did, however, interview a number of neighbors/witnesses near the scene, and I presume none of them knew or recognized who Trayvon might be. I'm unsure how large this neighborhood is, but who's to say that it's typical that police go door to door at night to find out if a murder victim (child in this case) lives in the area?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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If the police are conducting an honest investigation why alcohol/drug test T and not Z. Were they trying to help one side and not honestly gather evidence??

Homer,

I can see that the fact Z was not drug tested really bothers you.

A day or so ago someone posted a link, IIRC, to page put by Sanford addressing some FAQs. The drug test issue was addressed. (I cannot search thru all these posts to find it.)

They said that by law they could not drug test Z unless:

1. He consented to it. Or

2. They got a court order.

This tragic event took place on a Sunday night making a court order difficult. (I suppose it is theoretically possible they could have troubled a judge at his home. Even so, they would have needed a good reason to get a judge to sign off on something that supersedes 4th amendment rights. I tend to believe that just being involved in the situation is insufficient. I think an officer would have to submit a sworn statement that he had reason to believe Z was intoxicated. But that's my guess INAL.)

In thinking about this, it strikes me as correct because even when you are arrested for DUI they cannot force you to submit to breathalyzer test. In most states I have lived in, including FL and now NC, you must sign a statement before receiving your drivers license that you agree in the event you decline the test your license will automatically be suspended for a year. I.e., it's not easy to test someone because of the 4th amendment protection.

Fern
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
24
81
For those who are convinced that Zimmerman killed Martin on purpose, or don't believe his self-defense story, anyway: What is your opinion on the entry in the police report that states -
Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Do you think Zimmerman was lying, or thinking quickly on the spot to cover himself? Do you think this bit of information is irrelevant, or ?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
For those who are convinced that Zimmerman killed Martin on purpose, or don't believe his self-defense story, anyway: What is your opinion on the entry in the police report that states -

Do you think Zimmerman was lying, or thinking quickly on the spot to cover himself? Do you think this bit of information is irrelevant, or ?

It's relevant, but aside from credibility questions about Zimmerman, who started the fight and why? The fact that Zimmerman may have been losing a fight and felt in need of help begs that question.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Police report, in case it hasn't been shared yet - Link

So he wasn't questioned or interviewed at the scene. The interview was performed the police station and was definitely recorded. It also appears that he was interviewed by an investigator named D Singleton, I don't think that this was the narcotics detective. Hmmmmm the more you know, the more you wonder.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
So you're saying Zimmerman had to catch this "criminal" since the police had failed before?

I would think Z wanted to at least keep M in his sight. Calling the police to report a suspicious person and not doing so means the police must run around the neighborhood and try to find them. I tend to think in most cases the 'suspicious' person is never found. I doubt the police have much time to search around for someone when as of yet no crime has been committed.

If you keep eye on the person and can have the police meet up with you it is a much simpler matter for them to then question that person.

I have always thought that Z's comment about them "always getting away" referred to prior incidences where he reported suspicious persons that the police were never able, or willing, to locate.

Fern
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
The problem is that the police only get one chance to perform an initial investigation.
That has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of Z. With all the attention on this case you can bet they have their best guys on it now.
The first interview of a suspect is key, and they let a narcotics detective interview Mr. Zimmerman. Apparently the interview was done through leading questions, which are intrinsically suggestive and thus ineffective at eliciting information. The police did not request blood or breath samples, meaning we can't know whether Zimmerman was under the influence of substances.
So you complain that him being questioned by a narcotics DETECTIVE wasn't good enough and then go on to complain that they didn't test him for drugs and alcohol. Don't you think a narcotics DETECTIVE could tell if he was drunk or hiogh during the questioning? You seem to be prejudiced against Z Perhbaps you're a racist who doesn't like Hispanics??
The police also did not examine Zimmerman's car for the presence of drugs or open containers. These are not things that can now be corrected through further investigation. It also appears the police failed to listen closely to Zimmerman's initial 911 call, and thus missed the "fucking coons" comment. None of these strike me as the hallmarks of a brilliant investigation.

Why examine the car if he doesn't smell of drugs or alcohol and doesn't act drunk of high? I'm curious, how do you know they didn't give the car a once over?

As far as the "fucking coons" remark, I've hear the tape and he appears to have said "fucking ?????". I'm not sure what he said and even if he said coons, that is no reason in and of itself to prosecute him for cold blooded murder.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
For those who are convinced that Zimmerman killed Martin on purpose, or don't believe his self-defense story, anyway: What is your opinion on the entry in the police report that states -

Do you think Zimmerman was lying, or thinking quickly on the spot to cover himself? Do you think this bit of information is irrelevant, or ?

There is a witness named John (the incident took place just off of his porch) who didn't want to be shown on TV stated in an interview with a local reporter that he saw T on top of Z beating him and that Z was calling out for help.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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My understanding (though I'd be hard pressed to say where I saw this given the volume of stories I have read on the subject) is that Mr. Zimmerman was not a member of any formalized neighborhood watch group sanctioned by the local PD or the HOA, and that, in any case, he was not on patrol when this incident occurred but running a personal errand.

He would certainly be a member of NW sanctioned by the local PD.

I've read some of the 'umbrella' NW websites, according to them, that's who a neighborhood watch program needs to be 'sanctioned' by.

The umbrella groups do not sanction individual NW programs. They have no authority to do so, and they would open themselves up to lawsuits for misconduct by the individual NW program if they attempted to.

Fern
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
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There is a witness named John (the incident took place just off of his porch) who did want to be shown on TV stated in an interview with a local reporter that he saw T on top of Z beating him and the Z was calling out for help.

I read that report. Of course, those who have been convinced from the beginning that Z killed T "in cold blood" are dismissing that eyewitness as being a fabrication.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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That has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of Z. With all the attention on this case you can bet they have their best guys on it now. So you complain that him being questioned by a narcotics DETECTIVE wasn't good enough and then go on to complain that they didn't test him for drugs and alcohol. Don't you think a narcotics DETECTIVE could tell if he was drunk or hiogh during the questioning?

It's not exactly useful to have someone who can "tell" if someone is drunk or high when it comes to matters that concern a courtroom. What would have been actually useful would be factual proof of his intoxication (or not) from the administering of a test. So I really don't see what good comes out of calling in someone from the drug squad. On the other hand, I would think that having someone who specializes in the real important part of this case, the homicide, would be of top importance.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally Posted by WHAMPOM View Post
Don't need her, we have Zimmerman's phone getting recorded by the 911 operator all the way up to and during the foot chase.
Originally Posted by Fern View Post
Really?

I haven't seen anything about that.

So, the 911 tape has Martin's voice saying "why are you following me" and Z responding by saying (only) "who are you"?

Fern

You are out of the loop. Why do you even bother to post your opinions in a topic you know nothing about?

I'm not "out of the loop' by any means.

You are. I've repeatedly posted that as I am on a work PC I do not have audio and therefore cannot hear the tapes for myself. I must go by transcripts provided by other.

And according to those transcripts you are incorrect.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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Also, add Martin's cell phone that the Police did not follow-up to determine if any calls had been made from it. If they had, it may have given them important information in determining if Zimmerman's story was truthful.

They would need a court order for that, at least if they wanted to get something in evidence.

Again, this took place on a Sunday night.

If I were the police my primary thought about the cell phone would be to help determine the victim's ID. But they had that Monday some time anyway.

Fern
 
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