Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[OCNewbie]

Your scenario:

Martin could've easily stopped when "John" said he was going to call 911. While he leaves, TM releases GZ and sits up...GZ than gets access to his gun and shoots TM, killing him. No witness, fits ballistics and is murder.

The evidence would support my scenario as well as it supports GZ's claims. Remove GZ's claims and it could go either way and the evidence could be shown to fit.

It may be consistent with such a scenario (it doesn't directly contradict it), but it in no way supports it.

That's like saying: Facts (evidence): 1. Adriana Lima is attracted to men; 2. I am a man

Conclusion: Adriana Lima is attracted to me.

My conclusion is consistent with the evidence, but the evidence in no ways supports my conclusion.

The ballistics evidence only represent a snapshot; an instant moment in time that tells us (within a small margin of error, I assume) the distance the gun was to TM's body at the moment the gun fired, and perhaps the orientation of where TM was in relation to GZ, and not much else (that I'm aware of). In can in no way tell us what TM's intentions were in that moment; that he was in the process of removing himself from the situation, or that GZ was aware of such an intent. Shy of a witness (other than GZ) having a very clear vantage point of that occurring, there is no way to prove that that is what TM was doing when he was shot. Without such a witness, and without supporting evidence, it would be absurd to conclude that that is what happened.

I welcome your response.

 

[irishScott]

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend!
Some people started posting crap not knowing anything,
and they'll continue posting here forever just because
this is the thread that never ends...

 

[Dr. Zaus]

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend!
Some people started posting crap not knowing anything,
and they'll continue posting here forever just because
this is the thread that never ends...

yes it goes on and on my friend!
Some people started posting crap not knowing anything,
and they'll continue posting here forever just because
this is the thread that never ends...

 

[surfsatwerk]

yes it goes on and on my friend!
Some people started posting crap not knowing anything,
and they'll continue posting here forever just because
this is the thread that never ends...

This is the thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends,
Some morons started posting crap not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting it forever just because...

 

[EagleKeeper]

There is no evidence that TM was defending himself.
Until that happens; the shooting by GZ while TM was defending himself goes out the window.

The evidence is that TM was attacking GZ; not the other way around.

There's no evidence to the contrary either.
There is evidence that TM was attacking Zimmerman - that is the crux of the argument.

We know that GZ was after him because he was black like the burglary suspects. These assholes always get away, fucking punk.... he'd already made his mind up about who Trayvon was before having the tiniest of clues.

Martin's actions caused Zimmerman's detection radar to go off. Enough for him to call the police about a suspicious person

And that's the mindset he had when he left his car and then let it be known he wasn't returning despite the operator telling him they didn't need him to follow him.

So all the way up to before the altercation, we have all of that on tape recording. We know exactly what was going through Zimmerman's head when he left his car. We know he was thinking irrationally and jumping to incorrect conclusions prior to playing police.
You have no idea what was going on in his head. You have the audio recording of his words, not of his actions and/or Martin's actions

Trayvon on the other hand... we just know that this other guy we have on tape acting like a fucking idiot claimed that he looked suspicious. But then we find out he was not out of place and was in fact staying over there.

You know that Martin was heading in the direction of the house.. there is no evidence made available if me made it to the house. there is supposition from two statements that he may ahve been at the house prior to the altercation.

We know that Martin made the deliberate decision to not be at the house of safety, but to confront Zimmerman minutes after the originally parted ways.


That's what we know.

Little changes in the actual vs what you want to believe weaken scenarios.

While you may be right; there is nothing that actually backs up your opinions that Zimmerman went gunning for Martin.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Martin could've easily stopped when "John" said he was going to call 911. While he leaves, TM releases GZ and sits up...GZ than gets access to his gun and shoots TM, killing him. No witness, fits ballistics and is murder.

Ballistics to not allow for Martin to be sitting up.

Angle of entry wound and the holes in the clothes would not line up in that scenario.

Martin was leaning over Zimmerman and the shot was perpendicular to the body.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It sounds more plausible than GZ's story of "oh, ya gotta gun, now you're gonna die" & "you got me". None of which was heard by witnesses nor "John".

John was the witness that was close enough to hear verbiage.
He left to call 911.
There is no way then that he would have heard anything that Martin may have said.

 

[HumblePie]

It sounds more plausible than GZ's story of "oh, ya gotta gun, now you're gonna die" & "you got me". None of which was heard by witnesses nor "John".

The only problem with that Theory is GZ knew there was someone to witness part of it. He wasn't aware of who may or may not be watching or even recording with a camera phone in this day and age. It's dark, wet, and not the best of light to see by. Even worse when someone is on top of you, and you more than likely have blood running into your eyes from a broken nose.

Ever get a broken nose? It's a horrible experience. More so when you are on your back and can't breath because of the blood running down your throat. It's a terrifying experience I can tell you that. You can't see, you can barely breath, and all you can focus on is the pain of it.

Could what you proposed be a possibility? Yah, but highly unlikely. Due to the fact that anything Zimmerman claimed he would not have been aware of what others may have or may not have seen. If some one was still witnessing the whole thing while John walked off to call the cops then anything Zimmerman said that was in direct contrast to an unbiased witness would have ruined is claim of self defense.

 

[airdata]

Jesus Eagle.... :

A) no evidence who started the fight. Until you get that evidence it's entirely possible Trayvon was in the act of self defense. AFAIK if somebody attacks you there's not a law saying you'd have to run away or something.

This argument is retarded to begin with since you look at Zimmerman and he's doing the same thing except with irreversible consequences.

B) Zimmerman had a history of calling the police for people just being in the neighborhood which was the case w\ Trayvon. If Zimmerman knew Trayvon was staying down the way, he'd probably bump his psychotic ass down the road... but he didn't know shit and made up this whole fantasy in his head and acted on irrational fantasy.

c) Yes, we know what Zimmerman was thinking. When he says " These assholes always get away" and " fucking punk " it's clear he has a preconceived idea of who Trayvon is despite having no idea in reality. Again... he acted w\ his wild imagination.

d) There's absolutely no evidence of Trayvon doing anything wrong before the altercation. NONE. Nothing. Nothing at all.

We have numerous recordings of Zimmerman calling police on people for doing nothing wrong.

As I've said many times before, Zimmerman knew how this works. How about you guys do an experiment.

Call the police non emergency number. Tell them there's somebody walking in your neighborhood. See what their response time is.

Zimmerman likely embellished his story w\ the 'looks like he's on drugs ' statements in order to try to get a faster police response.

 

[airdata]

Originally Posted by soundforbjt
It sounds more plausible than GZ's story of "oh, ya gotta gun, now you're gonna die" & "you got me". None of which was heard by witnesses nor "John".

How about Trayvon " emerging from the shadows ". I got a kick out of that one.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Blah, blah, blah

When are you going to reply to this post by Lotus503?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34539656&postcount=42737

 

[Druidx]

How about Trayvon " emerging from the shadows ". I got a kick out of that one.

Not near as funny as Deedee claiming she could here TM being pushed and could hear grass.

 

[TerryMathews]

No I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit, too irresponsble to own a gun. and could have made numerous good descisons that would of resulted in them both going about a normal life.

I also think its likley martin did make a choice to beat his ass and that choice was a bad one that cost him his life.

You have two people both making stupid choices, one dead and a lack of evidence the other commited murder 2.

I also see you trying to fill in the evidence in ways that support murder and thats what the back and forth is on the thread between you and other posters.

I get it Zimmerman is a douche and should have stayed in his car, he should have listened to the non emergency op, he should have told martin was he was doing. that doesnt change his injuries, the eye wtiness with martin on top and outside of evidence martin was defending himself, zimmerman is going to walk.


I think its just as disgusting as you do when spatial and spidey dive into racist martin thug mode and pull all sorts of inconsequencial shit from there ass to support it.

But thats not a legal issue, that an implied morality issue, in which we agree, just not on the legal end.

Exactly this. Lotus, you hit the nail right on the head.

 

[airdata]

When are you going to reply to this post by Lotus503?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34539656&postcount=42737

Respond to what?

He seems to have his head on his shoulders. He's not pretending to know things that are unknown like you, spidey, geo, druid, oc, spatial & whoever else I missed.

 

[HumblePie]

Exactly this. Lotus, you hit the nail right on the head.

He did, but he failed to note that most of what we are arguing is the circumstantial evidence that points to events that regular evidence can not conclusively prove at this point.

Those events are, was TM up to no good or not the night of the incident? Was he smoking a few blunts and casing the place? Or was he just acting overtly scared and his reactions of being so were enough to arouse suspicion.

Did TM hide or come back to start the altercation with the express intent to do so?

Did GZ have a chance to resolve the conflict without it resorting to the deadly outcome it turned into?


That's the main focus really of all the bickering, except in the case of airclueless. As it is, there is no way GZ is going to get convicted of any wrong doing with the evidence at it currently stands. Based on Florida law, he should never have been arrested as the evidence stands. That is a bit of a tragedy as a separate issue. Lawful actions by law abiding citizens should not leave a person under house arrest, in financial difficulties, and facing menace from strangers.

 

[airdata]

Not near as funny as Deedee claiming she could here TM being pushed and could hear grass.

I don't know what you're talking about... but it's the small things that count. Like hearing Trayvon asking somebody why they're following him.

I mean gosh...

That doesn't match up w\ anything Zimmerman claims in his official report.

Why would an accused murderer make up stories about how he came to kill somebody?

 

[Geosurface]

Ballistics to not allow for Martin to be sitting up.

Angle of entry wound and the holes in the clothes would not line up in that scenario.

Martin was leaning over Zimmerman and the shot was perpendicular to the body.

Additional problem with sound's scenario: GZ's screams go right up to the time of the shot

 

[EagleKeeper]

Jesus Eagle.... :

A) no evidence who started the fight. Until you get that evidence it's entirely possible Trayvon was in the act of self defense. AFAIK if somebody attacks you there's not a law saying you'd have to run away or something.
No evidence as to who started the fight - Correct
Evidence as to who was getting the better of the fight - Yes - Martin


This argument is retarded to begin with since you look at Zimmerman and he's doing the same thing except with irreversible consequences.

B) Zimmerman had a history of calling the police for people just being in the neighborhood which was the case w\ Trayvon. If Zimmerman knew Trayvon was staying down the way, he'd probably bump his psychotic ass down the road... but he didn't know shit and made up this whole fantasy in his head and acted on irrational fantasy.
Conjecture only

c) Yes, we know what Zimmerman was thinking. When he says " These assholes always get away" and " fucking punk " it's clear he has a preconceived idea of who Trayvon is despite having no idea in reality. Again... he acted w\ his wild imagination.
Martin fit the profile of people that had been in the neighborhood previously and ran away prior to the LEO arrival.
It was not his imagination

d) There's absolutely no evidence of Trayvon doing anything wrong before the altercation. NONE. Nothing. Nothing at all.
That is correct - neither MArtin nor Zimmerman did anything legally wrong

We have numerous recordings of Zimmerman calling police on people for doing nothing wrong.

As I've said many times before, Zimmerman knew how this works. How about you guys do an experiment.

Call the police non emergency number. Tell them there's somebody walking in your neighborhood. See what their response time is.

Zimmerman likely embellished his story w\ the 'looks like he's on drugs ' statements in order to try to get a faster police response.

Last statement is conjecture/opinion on your part. given the way Martin looked on the 7/11 video - Zimmerman observation was accurate.

How about Trayvon " emerging from the shadows ". I got a kick out of that one.

If Martin was not where he was easily observable by Zimmerman; he would be hiding.

Coming out of the shadows of a building or area that was darker than the background.

 

[Druidx]

I don't know what you're talking about... but it's the small things that count. Like hearing Trayvon asking somebody why they're following him.

I mean gosh...

That doesn't match up w\ anything Zimmerman claims in his official report.

Why would an accused murderer make up stories about how he came to kill somebody?

Of course you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't care about the facts of the case only what backs up your preconceived opinions.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Respond to what?

He seems to have his head on his shoulders. He's not pretending to know things that are unknown like you, spidey, geo, druid, oc, spatial & whoever else I missed.

Yep, he's got his head on his shoulders and called you out for trying to twist the evidence around to suit your sequence of events.

 

[airdata]

Of course you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't care about the facts of the case only what backs up your preconceived opinions.

I don't know what you're talking about because you're talking about things that don't matter.

I bring the facts, son.

I'm not one of these guys pulling things out of my ass and pretending to be privy to information others aren't.

I care about the facts so much that I want to hear Zimmerman testify under oath so we can find out what really happened.

 

[airdata]

Yep, he's got his head on his shoulders and called you out for trying to twist the evidence around to suit your sequence of events.

I must have missed that.

But in all fairness so many people here don't have good reading comprehension.

So when I say something like " DruidX likely sucks a bag of dicks every night"

Some people miss the word ' likely ' and take the statement to simply mean ' DruidX sucks a bag of dicks every night. '

As you can see, that 1 word represents a significant difference in what is being said.

The original statement doesn't imply having specific knowledge to DruidX sucking a bag of dicks, just the likliness of it happening.

 

[OCNewbie]

I care about the facts so much that I want to hear Zimmerman testify under oath so we can find out what really happened.

So, you're saying IF GZ takes the stand, and his story doesn't change at all, you'll then believe everything he says?

 

[airdata]

Last statement is conjecture/opinion on your part. given the way Martin looked on the 7/11 video - Zimmerman observation was accurate.



If Martin was not where he was easily observable by Zimmerman; he would be hiding.

Coming out of the shadows of a building or area that was darker than the background.

Total opinion based. I see no evidence of intoxication on the 711 video, while people like spatial claim he's so fucked up that he can barely walk....and then he sobers up enough to plan a calculated assault on somebody according to spatial.

 

[airdata]

So, you're saying IF GZ takes the stand, and his story doesn't change at all, you'll then believe everything he says?

Yes.