Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[QueBert]

You're honestly bragging about living in a state where law-abiding citizens have to lock themselves inside to protect themselves from thugs, where people are expected to take a beating like good little victims, where it's every man or woman for herself and if you can't outfight someone you deserve to be a victim? How on Earth is that desirable?

What about Trayvon - is he allowed to walk the streets? Should he be forced to stay indoors, or run home if he sees someone threatening? Why is he allowed to roam the neighborhood but Zimmerman has to lock himself up for his own safety?

Nobody has to lock themselves inside to protect themselves from thugs, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. We don't have thugs out here, we have gang members. And they universally tend to leave regular people the hell alone. They don't have time to go after me, they're getting into beef with members of rival gangs. I believe in the right to defend yourself, if George had been sitting in his truck minding his own business, and Martin had drug him out and started to beat him for no reason. Him shooting would have made sense.

As it stands Georgie called the police reporting a person he felt was dangerous, and despite the advice of the person on the phone who knows a lot more about situations like this then him. He decided to get out and go after this supposed criminal who he was clearly wary of. At that point he's not an innocent person sitting in his car. He's the kid who see's the dog he knows might bite him and decides he's still going to poke him with a stick. I don't care what he says, or what the evidence shows. He wasn't just walking around when he got attacked. He provoked a person and was getting what he deserved, But luckily for him the person wasn't thug enough to finish the job.

 

[Geosurface]

I don't care what he says, or what the evidence shows. He wasn't just walking around when he got attacked. He provoked a person and was getting what he deserved, But luckily for him the person wasn't thug enough to finish the job.

Just humor me on the hypothetical here...

If what he says is 100% true... do you still feel he deserved to be attacked?

Let me remind you of what he says:

He claims he got out of his car, did not run but WALKED to the top of the "T" junction Trayvon had run south from, and never had any intention of trying to catch up to Trayvon. Rather, his hope was to reacquire a visual on him, and the expectation I believe he had was that he'd see Trayvon running southward, at a great distance, either down the "T" path or at the street to the east, and be able to relay this information to police.

So, if that's true and he gets to the "T" and doesn't see Trayvon... says "he ran" to the dispatch, indicating this, then spends another 1:40 on the phone with dispatch while he walks around just sort of mentally processing what had happened and what to do next, gets off the phone and decides he'll go look on his street to the east for an address on a house to relay to the responding officer when he calls back... has no idea this whole time where Trayvon is... then starts back toward his truck, and Trayvon has now run back northward from waaaaay down all the way at his house, having seen GZ cross the "T" and is now up there with assault on his mind....

If that's all true, I just want to know if you honestly still think him getting out of his car and doing that is equivalent to poking a dog with a stick, or provoking anything...

If Trayvon literally didn't even know George had gotten out of his car until he looked back up northward from ALL THE WAY down at the south end of the path, literally standing there at the door to the place he was staying... and had a choice of either going inside, or running northward to ensure he caught GZ before he managed to get back to his car... so he could assault him, would you honestly still find that acceptable behavior on Trayvon's part?

This hypothetical is based on GZ's testimony in part, as well as pieces of evidence and the interpretation many of us think is at least consistent with it.

 

[QueBert]

All it takes is a fear for your life for you to defend yourself, Spidey's said this a hundred times in this thread. He even said multiple times you can defend yourself from just a verbal threat. Since I believe Martin felt threatened, then logically what he did was fine. Also I factored in Florida's stand your ground, so if he was threatened by law he should have went and stood his ground. There's always the possibility that he flipped out for no reason. But the proof I do have is Zimmerman was audibly agitated while on the phone. He was going after someone that night and almost bit off more than he could chew.

 

[Geosurface]

All it takes is a fear for your life for you to defend yourself, Spidey's said this a hundred times in this thread. He even said multiple times you can defend yourself from just a verbal threat. Since I believe Martin felt threatened, then logically what he did was fine. Also I factored in Florida's stand your ground, so if he was threatened by law he should have went and stood his ground. There's always the possibility that he flipped out for no reason. But the proof I do have is Zimmerman was audibly agitated while on the phone. He was going after someone that night and almost bit off more than he could chew.

I've never felt Zimmerman sounded agitated.

Threat has to be credible, from what I understand, and there's also a big difference between shooting a gun at someone and holding them down as they scream in terror and beating them.

If what you're saying is true, (and it isn't), I could be walking down the street and if I see some creepy old dude staring out of his window at me, and it makes me feel threatened, I can kick his front door down and beat him to death.

I don't think so.

I'm sure spidey can clarify what he means, but my understanding is if someone threatens you verbally as in "i'm going to kill you, motherfucker" or comes at you with a knife or something... you can point your gun at them and shoot to defend yourself. What you can't do is climb on top of them and beat them while they are CLEARLY no longer a threat.

 

[werepossum]

Nobody has to lock themselves inside to protect themselves from thugs, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. We don't have thugs out here, we have gang members. And they universally tend to leave regular people the hell alone. They don't have time to go after me, they're getting into beef with members of rival gangs. I believe in the right to defend yourself, if George had been sitting in his truck minding his own business, and Martin had drug him out and started to beat him for no reason. Him shooting would have made sense.

As it stands Georgie called the police reporting a person he felt was dangerous, and despite the advice of the person on the phone who knows a lot more about situations like this then him. He decided to get out and go after this supposed criminal who he was clearly wary of. At that point he's not an innocent person sitting in his car. He's the kid who see's the dog he knows might bite him and decides he's still going to poke him with a stick. I don't care what he says, or what the evidence shows. He wasn't just walking around when he got attacked. He provoked a person and was getting what he deserved, But luckily for him the person wasn't thug enough to finish the job.

Perhaps you can read the two bolded sentences and see where I got that idea. Again, you make the point that Zimmerman has an obligation to stay in his truck, even though he sees someone whom he believes is acting suspiciously. Your point is clear; the thugs and/or gang members own the outdoors, and the rest of us need to huddle inside our homes and inside our cars and just hope that they leave us alone. After all, you promise they will; they simply don't have time to bother with us. (Presumably these gang members finance their drugs and guns with their lucrative cello instruction business since it's axiomatic that they can't simply steal from each other.) And just to make it crystal clear, you point out that Zimmerman "was getting what he deserved" for provoking a thug. Dude shoulda stayed in his car, right? Thugs and gang bangers own the outdoors, and we just need to stay in our cars and avoid them.

Of course, by using that argument you effectively cede that Martin WAS a thug, a dangerous beast that "regular people" dare not approach for fear of risking a violent beating - which would be no more than they deserve for disrespecting him instead of staying safely in their homes and vehicles. Further, you're making the argument that Martin deserves to violently beat anyone who disrespects him.

I wonder what his mother would think about that argument, that in following and (perhaps inadvertently) approaching her son "regular people" deserve a violent beating. I'm guessing that she would not recognize her son in that argument. As much as Martin was infatuated with the thug life, it's hard to reconcile the picture of a kid planning to take the SAT, with hopes of being a pilot, with the picture of a violent beast that "regular people" had best avoid lest they get the beating they deserve for disturbing him. And it's impossible to reconcile this with any kind of sane, civilized society.

 

[OCNewbie]

All it takes is a fear for your life for you to defend yourself, Spidey's said this a hundred times in this thread. He even said multiple times you can defend yourself from just a verbal threat. Since I believe Martin felt threatened, then logically what he did was fine.

Slight (major?) correction there: all it takes is a reasonable fear for your life. It has to be a situation where a reasonable person (loosely defined, I suppose) would fear for their life. If you're the kinda person that shoots at shadows, and you kill someone for asking you what time it is, then no, that would not be considered reasonable fear.

 

[Druidx]

As it stands Georgie called the police reporting a person he felt was dangerous, and despite the advice of the person on the phone who knows a lot more about situations like this then him. He decided to get out and go after this supposed criminal who he was clearly wary of. Either you haven't really followed this so it's an honest mistake or purposefully have the timeline wrong. He was already out of the car before the NEN operator said that. Which GZ acknowledged and said okay to, right after which you can clearly hear GZ stop running. Right before that the NEN operator asked GZ to tell him if the person did anything else. Split second decision to see which way TM went so he could supply the information to the police. For the next minute we have GZ say more than once that he has no idea where TM was. Yet, they somehow meet back up at an area TM just left minutes before. On the path back to GZ truck.

At that point he's not an innocent person sitting in his car. He's the kid who see's the dog he knows might bite him and decides he's still going to poke him with a stick. I don't care what he says, or what the evidence shows. He wasn't just walking around when he got attacked. He provoked a person and was getting what he deserved, But luckily for him the person wasn't thug enough to finish the job.
You don't care what the evidence shows because there is no evidence to show GZ did anything illegal. If there was ANY evidence to show GZ was guilty, I'm sure you would care about it than. Since there is not any evidence, you're going to stick with your gut feeling that GZ deserved a beat down anyway.

In bold

 

[TerryMathews]

You would think by now, you would get it. If it wasn't clear before after today it should be crystal clear now, there is evidence that must be strong enough to get a guilty verdict. If not he would have took the immunity hearing.

Why when the jury verdict can also yield immunity?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You would think by now, you would get it. If it wasn't clear before after today it should be crystal clear now, there is evidence that must be strong enough to get a guilty verdict. If not he would have took the immunity hearing.

If the state is hiding such evidence it quite possible it will be excluded by the Judge as it hasn't been provided as part of discovery to the defense which is required by law.

The immunity hearing can be rolled into the trial and quite possibly this may be the avenue that the defense takes in this case to save money. MoM had already stated this in an early hearing as he was concerned about the potential cost of having to pay for experts for two visits to the court in the event they were denied immunity at the evidentiary hearing.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Ge...pril/-/1637132/19182402/-/xi5nei/-/index.html

O'Mara said the hearing would not take place at that time, but he did not say if it would be heard later or rolled into the murder trial, which is scheduled for June.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well, I think that is pretty much cleared up now

Except that's not the only rule he broke...

From Sanford's NW handbook:

What you will
not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency.

Please show that Zimmerman expected to get physically involved?

Martin had already run away.
Zimmerman got out of the truck to try to report where Martin went.
Why is such a concept so hard for the Martin team to understand.
OBSERVE AND REPORT

No problem... sorry I missed it.

Fear from the man who was following him and questioning/confronting him for no reason. Any "minor" should be afraid of a stranger, isn't that what most parents teach their children.

And please no stupid comments about "teaching them not to viciously assault someone either".

So afraid that instead of heading for safety and/or calling the LEO or anyone for help, he waited for minutes and then attacked the person who was walking along the sidewalk.

 

[Druidx]

I don’t how much will come up during the trial about DeeDee’s apparent perjury, probably depends on if she testifies and what she says. Maybe I’m wrong but I see O’Mara getting a lot of mileage out of it during his closing argument.
“The state rushed to charge a defense witness with perjury but looked the other way when the state’s star witness lied under oath during her deposition, not once but twice ( Crump and DLR ). The same witness whose testimony was the basis for the very charges brought against GZ.”

I think the prosecution has some concerns how it will be used by the defense, considering how uncomfortable DLR looked yesterday when he ducked that question at the press conference.

 

[spidey07]

All it takes is a fear for your life for you to defend yourself, Spidey's said this a hundred times in this thread. He even said multiple times you can defend yourself from just a verbal threat. Since I believe Martin felt threatened, then logically what he did was fine. Also I factored in Florida's stand your ground, so if he was threatened by law he should have went and stood his ground. There's always the possibility that he flipped out for no reason. But the proof I do have is Zimmerman was audibly agitated while on the phone. He was going after someone that night and almost bit off more than he could chew.

I've continually granted martin's right to self defense if he felt threatened (reasonably believed in fear of bodily harm or forcible felony was about to be committed) for the first blow that knocked zimmerman to the ground.

That would be legal. Mounting him and slamming his head into the ground is NOT legal nor self defense because precedent and other case law says somebody on their back on the ground is no longer a threat. That's where martin went into felony aggrivated battery/forcible felony territory and at that point zimmerman can of course lawfully defend himself with whatever force needed to stop the attack/forcible felony...including lethal.

That's the HUGE key in the case, verfiyed by eye witnesses, ballistics, and all the evidence. Martin was on top of zimmerman restraining him after and/or continually beating him repeatedly about his head.

That's the key that makes this obvious self defense by zimmerman. There can be no other logical nor lawful outcome.

You simply cannot argue nor claim martin was acting in self defense as he mounted and slammed zimmerman's head into the ground. That is NOT self defense and never will be because martin was in control and zimmerman was no longer a credible nor imminent threat.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don’t how much will come up during the trial about DeeDee’s apparent perjury, probably depends on if she testifies and what she says. Maybe I’m wrong but I see O’Mara getting a lot of mileage out of it during his closing argument.
“The state rushed to charge a defense witness with perjury but looked the other way when the state’s star witness lied under oath during her deposition, not once but twice ( Crump and DLR ). The same witness whose testimony was the basis for the very charges brought against GZ.”

I think the prosecution has some concerns how it will be used by the defense, considering how uncomfortable DLR looked yesterday when he ducked that question at the press conference.

Based on what was discovered yesterday I seriously doubt the prosecution will put her on the stand as she's damaged goods. Either she or Crump lied about her age and she lied about going to the hospital.

 

[OCNewbie]

Either she or Crump lied about her age and she lied about going to the hospital.

I'd only need one single guess to figure out who made up that story to begin with

 

[OCNewbie]

So, if that's true and he gets to the "T" and doesn't see Trayvon... says "he ran" to the dispatch, indicating this, then spends another 1:40 on the phone with dispatch while he walks around just sort of mentally processing what had happened and what to do next, gets off the phone and decides he'll go look on his street to the east for an address on a house to relay to the responding officer when he calls back... has no idea this whole time where Trayvon is... then starts back toward his truck, and Trayvon has now run back northward from waaaaay down all the way at his house, having seen GZ cross the "T" and is now up there with assault on his mind....

I imagine (even though I don't believe he specifically said this) that if GZ did go all the way to RVC for an address, he probably waited there (at that address) for at least a short while (a minute or so) in anticipation of the police officer calling him (like the dispatcher told GZ they would). That was the supposed point, after all, to find an address, then be at that address when the police called so they could meet GZ there.

Also, he spent a good deal of that time while on the phone with dispatch trying to get his flashlight to work. You can hear him repeatedly banging on it, for quite some time, trying to get it to work (apparently).

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I'd only need one single guess to figure out who made up that story to begin with

It sounds like the state is not filing perjury charges against Dee Dee At this time. But also protecting Crump from possible witness tampering charges by not allowing him to be deposed on his involvement with Dee Dee.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

On top of that, trayvon 'ran away' and got away.... And was hidden for almost 5 minutes before specifically doubling back and confronting zimmerman. That is not "reasonable fear".

And you guys can save your "trayvon confronted zimmerman so he could confront him before being confronted" nonsense.


Trayvon was never in fear for his life. He could've called 911, he could've ran inside his house, he had many different options.

Instead he assaulted an innocent man for "disrespectin" him while casing houses.

 

[Druidx]

From what I just read at Talkleft, it's been confirmed DeeDee told DLR her correct age at the April 2nd depo. It seems like DLR still referred to her as a minor during a press conference following one of the hearings. Can anyone prove DLR continued to refer to DeeDee as a minor even after he knew DeeDee was an adult? Wasn't her name protected because she was supposedly a minor?

 

[Attic]

While you have a point, I don't think it applies to this case. Tawana Brawley and the Duke Lacrosse case were made-up incidents, racial accusations about things that never happened. In this case a black teenager was shot and killed, but was committing no crime when the incident was initiated. Furthermore, the police acted like it was no big deal, not even canvassing the neighborhood to see if anyone was missing a teenager. Leaving aside the questions of whether Martin was casing houses or who struck who first, setting aside whether or not Zimmerman is legally guilty of any crime, there is a valid point of racial politics here. Had Martin been a white kid in slouchy jeans and hoodie, the police would probably have tried more diligently to locate his family. Had Martin been a black kid in khakis, Dockers and button-down Izod, the police would definitely have tried more diligently to locate his family. The combination of black skin and gangsta dress led the police, even the black officers, to conclude that Martin was a criminal only there to commit crimes based on his appearance and the description of events from his killer, not a disinterested party. (To be honest, Zimmerman's phone call, previous behavior, and the testimony of partial witnesses supported this judgment, but as it turned out Martin belonged in that neighborhood.) Granted, the race pimps are totally uninterested in the vastly more common black-on-black crime, but this is a real event with real issues raised. This is in no wise another Tawana Brawley or Duke Lacrosse team rape case.

Treyvon's/GZ's race didn't matter until it was concluded it could be used to apply a sick double standard to justice and a twisted media shaping of the story.

Agree with the line you take in your argument, though we are focused on micro vs macro aspects of the media and justice system as it applies to cases involving race baiting by those involved.

Here with TM's tragedy, I see it more simply as was there a crime committed? (I see it clearly as No) Without going to great lengths to marginalize GZ and apply special treatment to TM I believe it's clear from the outset that GZ shot in self defense. Tracing GZ back to his car and beyond to apply a gross understanding of responsibility in the final outcome here is absurd, but somehow we see this line taken again and again yet clear evidence of TM assaulting GZ is marginalized by the media and race baiters. So what has REALLY played into the pursuit of supposed "justice" for the involved black person. Racism, good old ugly and racism, just like the other cases mentioned. Justice again is showing a double standard based on race, and there are plenty of folks going along with it to allow this to continue.

The one (Martin) folks are seeking "justice" for is the one who committed the crime. Yes GZ killed Martin, but it's more than clear what happened and there has been a willingness by those involved to cover up/ignore/brush off/discount the clear evidence of Martin's assault on GZ. It's the idea that b/c Martin is black that he deserves special treatment and a double standard that benefits the black involved and the special treatment goes so far as to marginalizes the justice for the white (I know GZ is hispanic/white) involved. Let's not forget the case was closed, only to be reopened after the white/black angle was put across every media outlet and Sunday news show. And lets not forget that on the night of the incident TM's own family said the cries of help were clearly not that of TM,... only after this special treatment appeared to be primed and ready was that account recanted and reversed. Folks get wrapped up when opportunity presents, here there has been an opportunity to receive special treatment as long as you side with TM. The racists involved fight tooth and nail to marginalize one side and and give unreasonable benefit of the doubt to another (yes this goes both ways), and this draws parralles to other cases.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

From what I just read at Talkleft, it's been confirmed DeeDee told DLR her correct age at the April 2nd depo. It seems like DLR still referred to her as a minor during a press conference following one of the hearings. Can anyone prove DLR continued to refer to DeeDee as a minor even after he knew DeeDee was an adult? Wasn't her name protected because she was supposedly a minor?

You can tell during the deposition that she was being led by BLDR. Several areas you can tell she making things up.

We all know GZ has a somewhat high voice from his NEN call yet Dee Dee tried to make him out to be some big burly scary man.

BDLR: And then what happened?
Dee Dee: I hear this, ya know, man… it wa’ like a ol’ man…
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: …say, ‘Wha’ you doin’ aroun’ here?’

BDLR: The other voice of the other person you heard, you had never heard before?
Dee Dee: No.
BDLR: OK. Could you tell it was a man versus a woman? The other voice.
Dee Dee: I thought it was a man.
BDLR: You thought it was a man.
Dee Dee: It is a man, ’cause it had a deep voice.

BDLR: OK. And could you tell the man whether his voice was real loud… screaming at
Trayvon, or was it just a normal conversation like you and I are having? When you said Trayvon
said, ‘What are you following me’..or something, whatever…and the guy replied something,
‘What are you doing here?’ Was it a normal conversation, or could you tell the man was like
loud?
Dee Dee: Kinda angry.
BDLR: Angry?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: Why do you say kind of angry?
Dee Dee: Cause he said it like so deep… ‘What are you doin’ ’round here?’

I would also like to know how she knew TM since they were kindergarten when she's at least 1 year older than him.

 

[Druidx]

I would also like to know how she knew TM since they were kindergarten when she's at least 1 year older than him.

Even better, neither of TM's parents knew who she was but they had supposedly been friends almost their whole life.

 

[soundforbjt]

Please show that Zimmerman expected to get physically involved?

Martin had already run away.
Zimmerman got out of the truck to try to report where Martin went.
Why is such a concept so hard for the Martin team to understand.
OBSERVE AND REPORT



So afraid that instead of heading for safety and/or calling the LEO or anyone for help, he waited for minutes and then attacked the person who was walking along the sidewalk.

The second GZ stepped out of the truck and took one step towards TM's direction, he was physically involved in the situation he reported. That is the police's job, not Georgie's job.

And Z-Man has stated he only got out of the truck to get an address, so is he lying again?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The second GZ stepped out of the truck and took one step towards TM's direction, he was physically involved in the situation he reported. That is the police's job, not Georgie's job.

And Z-Man has stated he only got out of the truck to get an address, so is he lying again?

The police is job is to apprehend or detain the person. The description of physically involved would be actually placing hands on/grabbing another person (ie apprehend/detain).

You have any proof he wasn't trying to determine an address?

Getting out of his car to see where the person ran or to get an address would be considered part of observe and report by most people. How can you provide accurate information to the police if you don't know the address or the direction of where the person ran?

 

[spidey07]

The second GZ stepped out of the truck and took one step towards TM's direction, he was physically involved in the situation he reported. That is the police's job, not Georgie's job.

And Z-Man has stated he only got out of the truck to get an address, so is he lying again?

And the moment martin continued to beat zimmerman's head into the concrete as he screamed for his life he was way more than physically involved.

He was committing a vicious and brutal forcible felony against the victim zimmerman. that's a fact you cannot argue.

 

[Druidx]

The second GZ stepped out of the truck and took one step towards TM's direction, he was physically involved in the situation he reported. That is the police's job, not Georgie's job.

And Z-Man has stated he only got out of the truck to get an address, so is he lying again?

So taking one step towards a person a 100 feet away is getting physically involved or confronting them? How about 200 feet way? At what distance would you consider it not getting physically involved? The TM fanatics in here could just as easily take your opinion one step further and claim GZ was physically involved when he called NEN or even looked at TM wrong, GZ was eyeballing TM to provoke an attack.

I'll give you a freebie, I agree with you that GZ didn't get out of the car simply to get an address. What we disagree on is why and what it means.