Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[spidey07]

You could be right. But that doesn't mean Martin commited a felony. They both could have been in fear for their life and Zimmerman could still be found not guilty.

My point is, if people want to present a theory about Martin commiting a crime, that's fine.

But when people go beyond that and say he did commit a crime, I'm going to ask them to show why they think so and I'll challenge the things I think are based on assumptions, not facts.

I would do the same thing for Zimmerman, challenge people who've already convicted him, but there's plenty of people already doing that for him.

Mounting somebody and slamming their head into the concrete cannot be self defense. That right there is a felony, a forcible felony to be exact. This has been explained to you many times over.

From a self defense perspective it's the same as if you shot somebody, and then when they were on the ground you shot them again.

Guess what? The first shot would be good/legal. The use of force when the threat was on the ground and no longer a threat would be VERY illegal and of course a felony.

Martin's initial blow could be considered self defense, I've said that all along. Everything past that gets into forcible felony Territory. It is a known fact that martin had committed and was in the commission of a forcible felony when shot. This fact is supported by all evidence and is irrefutable.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You could be right. But that doesn't mean Martin commited a felony. They both could have been in fear for their life and Zimmerman could still be found not guilty.

My point is, if people want to present a theory about Martin commiting a crime, that's fine.

But when people go beyond that and say he did commit a crime, I'm going to ask them to show why they think so and I'll challenge the things I think are based on assumptions, not facts.

I would do the same thing for Zimmerman, challenge people who've already convicted him, but there's plenty of people already doing that for him.

No one has been able to convincingly show why Martin would have been fearful for his life.
He had Zimmerman beaten down and was in a controlling position.
He did not stop when yelled at by a third party.

Martin did not indicate that he needed assistance in controlling Zimmerman or that Zimmerman had a weapon.

Where in the evidence locker and even including DeeDee did Martin indicate fear.
When he initially ran from the roadway, possibly; after Zimmerman showed at the top of the T, no indications at all.

 

[Tom]

No one has been able to convincingly show why Martin would have been fearful for his life.
He had Zimmerman beaten down and was in a controlling position.
He did not stop when yelled at by a third party.

Martin did not indicate that he needed assistance in controlling Zimmerman or that Zimmerman had a weapon.

Where in the evidence locker and even including DeeDee did Martin indicate fear.
When he initially ran from the roadway, possibly; after Zimmerman showed at the top of the T, no indications at all.

Why would Martin be in fear for his life ?

Let me think, is there any evidence why Martin could have been in fear for his life..

hmm, lets see, what could be evidence of that..

 

[Tom]

Mounting somebody and slamming their head into the concrete cannot be self defense. That right there is a felony, a forcible felony to be exact. This has been explained to you many times over.

From a self defense perspective it's the same as if you shot somebody, and then when they were on the ground you shot them again.

Guess what? The first shot would be good/legal. The use of force when the threat was on the ground and no longer a threat would be VERY illegal and of course a felony.

Martin's initial blow could be considered self defense, I've said that all along. Everything past that gets into forcible felony Territory. It is a known fact that martin had committed and was in the commission of a forcible felony when shot. This fact is supported by all evidence and is irrefutable.

You know why your completely wrong ?

On the one hand its ok to kill someone in self-defense..

but its not ok to hold somebody on the ground in self-defense.

That makes no sense.

 

[TerryMathews]

You know why your completely wrong ?

On the one hand its ok to kill someone in self-defense..

but its not ok to hold somebody on the ground in self-defense.

That makes no sense.

You split his action in half. He said mount and pound their head into concrete.

If he had only said mount you would be correct.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Why would Martin be in fear for his life ?

Let me think, is there any evidence why Martin could have been in fear for his life..

hmm, lets see, what could be evidence of that..

Up until the shot, what indications are there that Martin was afraid?

sarcasm does not become you

You know why your completely wrong ?

On the one hand its ok to kill someone in self-defense..

but its not ok to hold somebody on the ground in self-defense.

That makes no sense.

Hold a person is perfectly valid.
To attempt to damage that person when under control is not.
Given that there were four separate areas of injury/impact to Zimmerman, the self defense would seem to fly out the window, especially based on what the witness saw.

 

[spidey07]

You know why your completely wrong ?

On the one hand its ok to kill someone in self-defense..

but its not ok to hold somebody on the ground in self-defense.

That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

 

[soundforbjt]

You split his action in half. He said mount and pound their head into concrete.

If he had only said mount you would be correct.

No one saw GZ getting his head pounded onto cement, in fact the officer on the scene said GZ's claims for that didn't add up according to the crime scene evidence. You know, that pesky evidence thing.

 

[soundforbjt]

Legality aside, zimmerman was clearly a concerned citizen. He has a "current" history of being an upstanding member of society, perfectly sane, with a level-head. He has been involved in other neighborhood issues worse than this, all ended without incident.


Then you have trayvon. Currently on suspension from school, who was sent from miami to sanford to "Get away from bad influences". Said thug has been caught with known stolen property and burglary equipment. Said thug was observed casing houses by a concerned citizen.

Here we go with the big lie again,

 

[TerryMathews]

No one saw GZ getting his head pounded onto cement, in fact the officer on the scene said GZ's claims for that didn't add up according to the crime scene evidence. You know, that pesky evidence thing.

We were discussing hypotheticals jackass.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

No one saw GZ getting his head pounded onto cement, in fact the officer on the scene said GZ's claims for that didn't add up according to the crime scene evidence. You know, that pesky evidence thing.

So how did GZ's injuries occur? The two lacerations on his head could have come from hitting concrete. Even the same officer said under oath that the wounds could come from striking the concrete.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

GILBREATH: Managed to scoot away from the concrete sidewalk and that is at that point is when the shooting subsequently followed. That is not consistent with the evidence we found.

O'MARA: The injuries seem to be consistent with his story, though, don't they?

Dale; The injuries are consistent with a harder object striking the back of his head than his head was.
O'MARA: Could that be cement?

GILBREATH: Could be.

O'MARA: Did you just say it was consistent or did you say it wasn't consistent?

GILBREATH: I said it was.

He said the evidence didn't add up to him scooting away from the concrete, not that GZ injuries couldn't have occurred by striking the concrete sidewalk.

 

[HumblePie]

No one saw GZ getting his head pounded onto cement, in fact the officer on the scene said GZ's claims for that didn't add up according to the crime scene evidence. You know, that pesky evidence thing.

Incorrect. Again the witness recording by police of John said he saw the one on top raining down blows MMA style AND hitting the one on the bottom's head into the sidewalk. I said he saw that clearly to the police investigator. That was recorded and the recording link was posted earlier.

 

[soundforbjt]

So how did GZ's injuries occur? The two lacerations on his head could have come from hitting concrete. Even the same officer said under oath that the wounds could come from striking the concrete.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html



He said the evidence didn't add up to him scooting away from the concrete, not that GZ injuries couldn't have occurred by striking the concrete sidewalk.

bolded. "could" Lots of things "could" have happened.

 

[OCNewbie]

bolded. "could" Lots of things "could" have happened.

His injuries are consistent with his story, and that is the important detail.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

bolded. "could" Lots of things "could" have happened.

We do know that grass and sandy soil like is found in Florida is not hard enough cause such lacerations, specially after on and off rain.

However, it could have been aliens!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[soundforbjt]

Incorrect. Again the witness recording by police of John said he saw the one on top raining down blows MMA style AND hitting the one on the bottom's head into the sidewalk. I said he saw that clearly to the police investigator. That was recorded and the recording link was posted earlier.

Incorrect, john has redacted and NOW claims he didn't actually see any punches thrown and could not see who was screaming.

 

[lotus503]

Incorrect. Again the witness recording by police of John said he saw the one on top raining down blows MMA style AND hitting the one on the bottom's head into the sidewalk. I said he saw that clearly to the police investigator. That was recorded and the recording link was posted earlier.

John recanted that statement

 

[soundforbjt]

We do know that grass and sandy soil like is found in Florida is not hard enough cause such lacerations, specially after on and off rain.

However, it could have been aliens!!!!!!!!!!!

And those look like scrapes, more than they look like deliberate blows on concrete. GZ probably caused them himself trying to "wiggle" off the sidewalk, remember he was able to move nearly thirty feet with TM on top the entire time according to GZ. Pretty good feat.

 

[EagleKeeper]

And those look like scrapes, more than they look like deliberate blows on concrete. GZ probably caused them himself trying to "wiggle" off the sidewalk, remember he was able to move nearly thirty feet with TM on top the entire time according to GZ. Pretty good feat.

Where is is stated that he moved 30ft (or nearly 30ft) with TM on top of him.

Multiple scenarios were talked about 6 months ago when determining angles and approximate distances as well as the locations of the body.
End result was +\- 5 ft could easily be accounted for.


To you they be scrapes - to a professional medical person they were not. The same as with the nose.

are you seeing what is there or what you want to see?

 

[HumblePie]

John recanted that statement

No he didn't. He just later said he never saw the mouth of the person yelling for help. So was not 100% sure who was yelling for help. Just that it sounded like it was from the person on the bottom and that it made the most sense because the person on the bottom was struggling to get away from the one on top hitting him.

THAT was the only part he "clarified" later to police. That is not a recant.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

And those look like scrapes, more than they look like deliberate blows on concrete. GZ probably caused them himself trying to "wiggle" off the sidewalk, remember he was able to move nearly thirty feet with TM on top the entire time according to GZ. Pretty good feat.

I think the court/jury will go with a Doctor's description of the wounds.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

John recanted that statement

although he recanted it later after media coverage; he initially stated that that is what he thought he saw.

We have no idea on how the police re-questioned him to trigger the recantation. If they were looking to weaken his story; their questions would have been leading and targeted that way.

Anyone know if their is an actual transcript of the recantation?

There is still the fact that he saw TM on top of GZ and John feels that the person on the bottom was struggling ans screaming

 

[Londo_Jowo]

No he didn't.

Yes, he did. Though he did not change who was on top.

Witness 6
This witnesslived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.

But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.

"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.

He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.

He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.
"The black guy was on top," he said.

 

[soundforbjt]

I think the court/jury will go with a Doctor's description of the wounds.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

I'm not saying they're not lacerations/cuts, just that they looked like scrapes more than a simple impact-cut.

 

[lotus503]

No he didn't. He just later said he never saw the mouth of the person yelling for help. So was not 100% sure who was yelling for help. Just that it sounded like it was from the person on the bottom and that it made the most sense because the person on the bottom was struggling to get away from the one on top hitting him.

THAT was the only part he "clarified" later to police. That is not a recant.

NO he also stated he couldn't be sure the person the the top was hitting the person on the bottom or trying to hold them down.