Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Londo_Jowo]

Maybe he wanted to shoot him because he got beat up, not because he was in fear of his life or GBH.

Without a witness seeing that GZ shot TM after the fight was over it's going to be difficult at best to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[lotus503]

I don't see how any objective person can say that reasonable doubt doesn't exist under the law in this case.

I think reasonable people agree but are also letting the process play out to see if anything introduced changes that.

 

[lotus503]

Without a witness seeing that GZ shot TM after the fight was over it's going to be difficult at best to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

I agree, proving it BRD is the burden, but I was answering your why question, not what the state can prove

 

[EagleKeeper]

I'm not sure why Don West is spinning tales of things that didn't happen.

1.) GZ's nose being distorted. THe subsequent pcitures don't show that
2.) GZ not being allowed to go to the hospital. He refuses any treatment.

Pictures do show the nose distorted.

You just refuse to accept that because you do not want to admit to any injuries to GZ

 

[OCNewbie]

I believe I have always answered your posts as best as possible, given the amount of activity in the thread. Can't answer every single thing anyone says to me.

You refused to answer this question when I proposed it to you the first time, and now you avoid it again.

First time:

Had GZ not shot TM, and had just gotten into the altercation with TM, and had gotten beaten up, and the cops showed up just prior to GZ firing the shot, what do you think the punishment for GZ should have been in that case?

Then you said this, which prompted me to ask you again, which you are apparently still refusing to answer:

With regards to "actually pulling the trigger," yes. But everything that led up to the conflict was the direct result of Zimmerman's actions, and he is culpable for that.

This is exactly why I asked you what his punishment should be (in your mind) had everything happened exactly the same way, but they were separated or something just prior to the shot. You couldn't give me an answer.

So again, for what he is "culpable" for, by your own words, prior to the shot. Had the shot not occurred, what would the appropriate punishment be?

 

[2timer]

Other than you not wanting it to be factual, on what basis do you say it was "not broken" ?

Because I read Wikipedia and it describes the injuries as "bleeding from the nose and back of the head." Why do you have to question everything I say? Do you think I'm a liar or something?

 

[waggy]

What makes you think it isn't broken? I can't tell, and a pic taken soon after the punch means it wouldn't have turned black/blue yet.

I think it's good enough, that's all.

We have a doctor's report of a "closed fracture", also.

also you don't get black/blue eyes etc every time either.

 

[OCNewbie]

Pictures do show the nose distorted.

You just refuse to accept that because you do not want to admit to any injuries to GZ

Not just pictures, but statements to the FDLE by the EMT's that were on the scene (at least two of them said his nose looked broken and/or was "disfigured" or "swollen").

 

[EagleKeeper]

Bleeding but not broken. Trayvon sure was a monstrous beast, hitting a wannabe cop for threatening and pursuing him.

So the medical reports are wrong.

Are you an alter ego of emp - rejecting physical evidence because it does not fit your theory?

 

[OCNewbie]

Because I read Wikipedia and it describes the injuries as "bleeding from the nose and back of the head." Why do you have to question everything I say? Do you think I'm a liar or something?

LOL at the underlined.

If you're not a liar, you intentionally give misleading statements.

 

[echo4747]

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/BMI/bmicalc.htm

It's every so slightly over the midway point for "Normal weight" range for BMI

I think TM probably weighed a bit more.. than 158 at the point he was alive..I am sure he lost substantial blood and probably a good amount of water from the time he was shot and the med examiner actually weighed him

 

[HumblePie]

I think TM probably weighed a bit more.. than 158 at the point he was alive..I am sure he lost substantial blood and probably a good amount of water from the time he was shot and the med examiner actually weighed him

yep. But not more than 2-5 pounds.

 

[OCNewbie]

Because I read Wikipedia and it describes the injuries as "bleeding from the nose and back of the head." Why do you have to question everything I say? Do you think I'm a liar or something?

How's this for you. This is a diagnosis from the medical report of GZ's examination the morning following the incident:

 

[OCNewbie]

I think TM probably weighed a bit more.. than 158 at the point he was alive..I am sure he lost substantial blood and probably a good amount of water from the time he was shot and the med examiner actually weighed him

yep. But not more than 2-5 pounds.

I agree.

 

[Druidx]

Because I read Wikipedia and it describes the injuries as "bleeding from the nose and back of the head." Why do you have to question everything I say? Do you think I'm a liar or something?

LOL, he's getting the facts of the case from Wikipedia.

 

[HumblePie]

LOL, he's getting the facts of the case from Wikipedia.

Yep, and is happy the prosecution used an inflammatory opening. All of which they are going to be on the hook to prove, but doesn't seem any of it will be likely proved. So far the case is playing out just like I called it.

"Strong" opening statements by both sides.

Expert testimonies + witness testimonies from both sides. Prosecution using more family witness testimony than anything else. Having to dance around TM's "character" without actually asserting it so as to not allow defense to enter actual character evidence. Attempting to attack the character of GZ instead by trying to paint a portrait of a man bent on killing the first potential burglary suspect he caught up to. But can't bring in actual "past" character evidence of GZ without again allowing defense to bring it in as well as rebuttal.

Defense will then rely heavily upon expert and witness testimony and the prosecution is going to try to nitpick over those testimony in an attempt to disuage the jury that the testimony isn't really all that "solid" in what they offer.

Partway through the trial a dismissal motion may be made, or may not. Depends on how much or little the prosecution can present. If it's too little, the jury won't even get a chance to deliberate. Judge may still puss out on doing her job and pass the buck to the jury though so it can go either way for that outcome.

Unless the jury is filled with emotional idiots who are hell bent on seeing an almost "white man" getting the deserved punishment of all perceived racial injustices ever as some members in this thread seem to want GZ to be guilty of.. Deliberations will be quick with a unanimous or nearly so acquittal.

 

[2timer]

You refused to answer this question when I proposed it to you the first time, and now you avoid it again.

First time:



Then you said this, which prompted me to ask you again, which you are apparently still refusing to answer:





So again, for what he is "culpable" for, by your own words, prior to the shot. Had the shot not occurred, what would the appropriate punishment be?

Go back and read my posts. I've answered your questions numerous times, plainly and simply. I just refuse to speculate on hypothetical situations with you since it appears like the actual situation is complex enough. That approach saves us both time and headache.

I don't even understand what the question is, had the shot not occurred, or if Trayvon was an adult who would've known to call 911 on an agitated armed stalker, the outcome would probably be GZ would stay in jail for 3 days for disturbing the peace, realized what a jerk he is, and acted much more responsibly thereafter. And Trayvon Martin would still be alive.

It's sad it didn't end that way.

 

[2timer]

LOL, he's getting the facts of the case from Wikipedia.

Something wrong with that?

 

[soundforbjt]

Why did West use John's first statement and not the one where he redacted the MMA ground and pound and said he really couldn't tell anything but who was where?

Won't that come back later to "bite him in the ass"?

 

[2timer]

Yep, and is happy the prosecution used an inflammatory opening. All of which they are going to be on the hook to prove, but doesn't seem any of it will be likely proved. So far the case is playing out just like I called it.

LOL. "On the hook to prove?" You're a moron, plain and simple. Anyone who can READ would know the prosecution has said nothing but pure and undisputed facts. I could not share your sentiment any less, and I'm quite happy and satisfied with their accurate and legal statement.

Good to see right wing nuts still live in a distorted fantastic universe, the world has not come to an end.

 

[OCNewbie]

I don't even understand what the question is . . .

The question was, what do you believe would be a fair punishment for Zimmerman had everything transpired exactly like it did (GZ calling the police about TM, following him, then somehow an altercation ensuing, GZ suffering injuries, being seen underneath TM, and TM suffering no injuries), but ended just prior to the shot.

In other words, the officer arrives, sees TM on top of GZ, breaks up the altercation, before the shot, etc. You think GZ would be the one getting in trouble for getting his ass kicked and TM not showing any signs of injury?

 

[OCNewbie]

Why did West use John's first statement and not the one where he redacted the MMA ground and pound and said he really couldn't tell anything but who was where?

Won't that come back later to "bite him in the ass"?

We don't know what John told West and/or O'Mara in their deposition of him.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If GZ was stalking, why wasn't he charged with such? Could it be nothing GZ did that night could be considered stalking under the statute/law for such?

 

[Druidx]

Why did West use John's first statement and not the one where he redacted the MMA ground and pound and said he really couldn't tell anything but who was where?

Won't that come back later to "bite him in the ass"?

He didn't say he couldn't really tell anything but who was where, he said a lot more than that in his 2nd statement

 

[HumblePie]

LOL. "On the hook to prove?" You're a moron, plain and simple. Anyone who can READ would know the prosecution has said nothing but pure and undisputed facts. I could not share your sentiment any less, and I'm quite happy and satisfied with their accurate and legal statement.

Good to see right wing nuts still live in a distorted fantastic universe, the world has not come to an end.

LOL, the prosecutions opening statement struck me as a slightly better version to the opening statement made in the movie Idiocracy. All this "evidence and shit"