Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[EagleKeeper]

The thing is its Zimmerman who's on trial and its isn't necessary to speculate about his ill will towards his "suspect". Who he ends up killing.

No, the state needs to show beyond a doubt that it was due to ill will and not self defense that the killing happened.

How have they done so?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The thing is its Zimmerman who's on trial and its isn't necessary to speculate about his ill will towards his "suspect". Who he ends up killing.

LMAO!!!! It does if you expect to get a 2nd degree murder conviction. Please tell me you're trolling and not truly this ignorant???

 

[lotus503]

So he stood around and looked to see if he could see Martin;

DeeDee statements do not indicate that he came down the T.
Her statements indicate that Martin went from the area of the house to the top of the T.
The state has to prove; Zimmerman does not.

when you watch a pre-recorded show; do you watch the complete show or skip the pre-amble, commercials and credits?

Her statements indicate he asked him a question first. Not that he was at his house, not that he went to the T.

Not sure why you keep saying that when its totally unclear where Martin was etc.

 

[Attic]

If he's found not guilty he will absolutely profit from it. The NBC suit will go forward, some are suggesting he should go after Crump and Associates (Natalie Jackson) for defamation based on their tweets since the start.

Wouldn't that be so sweet to see Crump lose his cut from the HOA settlement?

IMO GZ is not done once acquitted. He has a duty to ensure someone else is not put through what he was, and to do that he has to go after the true offenders in this case. Yes media, Crump, ect.

 

[brianmanahan]

No, the state needs to show beyond a doubt that it was due to ill will and not self defense that the killing happened.

How have they done so?

they havent.

/thread

jk lol, this thread will NEVER die

 

[waggy]

Those aren't answers. Random tidbits, mainly drawn from possible scenarios you can't possibly prove.

Yes, GZ "could have" hunted/followed TM and killed him in cold blood. Evidence doesn't show that. It's possible GZ followed TM, evidence doesn't show that.

It's possible GZ acted out of spite and ill will because he was a wannabe cop with a grudge against a person he termed "suspect". Evidence doesn't show that.

Have you honestly weighted your what if scenario against anything based on how the court system works?

Begs the question, do you have any idea what beyond reasonable doubt means or have you ever dealt with a legal case?

WHAT IF should never be part of deciding if someone is guilty or not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Please show this evidence or do you mean GZ's statement makes it evidence since there's nothing to refute it? No one saw how the confrontation started. TM ran, didn't see GZ get out of the car, probably assumed GZ wouldn't and went back to talking on the phone which is well within his rights to do. If all he wanted was to beat GZ's ass, why didn't he do it long before that? He had plenty of opportunities.

How was he going to beat Zimmerman's ass when he was not near Zimmerman;
he was outside Zimmerman's visual range. Past the T.

He needed to intercept Zimmerman; easier to do that also by surprise; that way Zimmerman would not be prepared to fight back.

Usually in military terms is call an ambush from the flank.

You expect that Martin was stupid enough (remember he was in astronaut training) to pull Zimmerman out of a vehicle while Zimmerman was on the phone.

Not knowing who he was on the phone with (or possibly realizing that it was the law because of overhearing) he takes off for safety.

Zimmerman comes along on the phone - Martin's best course of action is to stay out of sight (somewhere).

Zimmerman gets off the phone; Martin has sized him up now; and decides to teach a "respect me class".

There is your best opportunity - minimal risk - maximum impact.

 

[Darkman]

I wonder how many ore dumbasses will be arrested for their tweets???

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-over-zimmerman-tweet-20130713,0,469615.story

Serves him right ...

-------

CNN:

Jury is deliberating through lunch (AKA having lunch at the same time with deliberation)

 

[Tom]

LMAO!!!! It does if you expect to get a 2nd degree murder conviction. Please tell me you're trolling and not truly this ignorant???

I don't "expect" any particular verdict.

It is a fact that Zimmerman refers to Martin as a "suspect", as well as other more colorful derogatory terms. And expresses his desire to have him stopped.

I don't have an issue with anyone thinking they aren't relevant to the final question, or aren't sufficient to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Or even that they don't indicate hostility, although I think that's "bizarro" territory.

Those are opinions though, not facts.

I have an issue with people denying facts are real, and saying their opinions are facts.

 

[Darkman]

Grab a little thing called scientific research so it can smack you across the face like a fishy

One gender reacts much more on an emotional basis than the other. For you to deny that is pure ignorance based on your own.

I hear you, bud ...

p.s.
NO offense DVC ... "It's all good", anyhow

 

[Ichinisan]

He'd never done that before, what changed that night? The fact he was armed, maybe?

Maybe so.

...so?

The gun is an equalizer. It's a very good and valid reason to feel safer in the performance of his duty...as proven by the encounter.

Was he never armed before? Is that the first time he ever had the gun?

NW explicitly states NOT to follow, also see above

For liability reasons, Neighborhood Watch also cannot have rules that keep you in a potentially dangerous situation. He may have felt a duty to be effective in his role, even if his personal safety was compromised by the decision to follow...AND THAT IS ASSUMING GZ ACTUALLY FOLLOWED TM, WHICH HE CLAIMS HE DID NOT DO AND WE CANNOT PROVE OTHERWISE.

 

[waggy]

How was he going to beat Zimmerman's ass when he was not near Zimmerman;
he was outside Zimmerman's visual range. Past the T.

He needed to intercept Zimmerman; easier to do that also by surprise; that way Zimmerman would not be prepared to fight back.

Usually in military terms is call an ambush from the flank.

You expect that Martin was stupid enough (remember he was in astronaut training) to pull Zimmerman out of a vehicle while Zimmerman was on the phone.

Not knowing who he was on the phone with (or possibly realizing that it was the law because of overhearing) he takes off for safety.

Zimmerman comes along on the phone - Martin's best course of action is to stay out of sight (somewhere).

Zimmerman gets off the phone; Martin has sized him up now; and decides to teach a "respect me class".

There is your best opportunity - minimal risk - maximum impact.

the problem is we don't know what happened. So we have to depend on evidence. We are not to depend on "what if" or "could have"

the state had to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that TM was NOT in fear for his life when he got his ass beat. They didn't.

Then they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ planned to murder him. they failed on that.

the verdict SHOULD be not guilty.

but who the fuck knows with a jury. the fact they are still going makes me worry for gz.

 

[Darkman]

No, Alan Dershowitz is not an ass clown.

+ 1

... anyone who calls Dersh a clown is a true clown themselves ...

 

[Tom]

How was he going to beat Zimmerman's ass when he was not near Zimmerman;
he was outside Zimmerman's visual range. Past the T.

He needed to intercept Zimmerman; easier to do that also by surprise; that way Zimmerman would not be prepared to fight back.

Usually in military terms is call an ambush from the flank.

You expect that Martin was stupid enough (remember he was in astronaut training) to pull Zimmerman out of a vehicle while Zimmerman was on the phone.

Not knowing who he was on the phone with (or possibly realizing that it was the law because of overhearing) he takes off for safety.

Zimmerman comes along on the phone - Martin's best course of action is to stay out of sight (somewhere).

Zimmerman gets off the phone; Martin has sized him up now; and decides to teach a "respect me class".

There is your best opportunity - minimal risk - maximum impact.

In your ambush plan, what tactic did Martin use to get Zimmmerman out of his truck ?

 

[JackBurton]

I wonder how many ore dumbasses will be arrested for their tweets???

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-over-zimmerman-tweet-20130713,0,469615.story

Perfect! I'm all for a stiff penalty for this tough guy.

 

[Ichinisan]

Please show this evidence or do you mean GZ's statement makes it evidence since there's nothing to refute it? No one saw how the confrontation started. TM ran, didn't see GZ get out of the car, probably assumed GZ wouldn't and went back to talking on the phone which is well within his rights to do. If all he wanted was to beat GZ's ass, why didn't he do it long before that? He had plenty of opportunities.

The opportunity was created when TM supposedly hid somewhere and jumped out to attack GZ by surprise. This is what GZ says happened. It seems plausible that a violent / troubled teenager would do that.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So he stood around and looked to see if he could see Martin;

DeeDee statements do not indicate that he came down the T.
Her statements indicate that Martin went from the area of the house to the top of the T.
The state has to prove; Zimmerman does not.

when you watch a pre-recorded show; do you watch the complete show or skip the pre-amble, commercials and credits?

Her statements indicate he asked him a question first. Not that he was at his house, not that he went to the T.

Not sure why you keep saying that when its totally unclear where Martin was etc.

Her statements indicate that
Martin was by the house of Brandy.
Martin made the decision to then go confront Zimmerman after Zimmerman reappeared
Martin made the first verbal contact.

This is the order that she described what happened from her POV. She was asked by the State to describe what she heard; it did not imply a random order not did the way she explained was in a random order. either side would have asked for clarification if that was the case.

Now a proper logical assumption would be that Martin was also out of Zimmerman's field of vision while he was on the phone to the NEN dispatcher.

I am estimating that that was past the top of the T; Flashlight against the dog baggy stand in the recording.

So Martin was either hiding around the first set of houses (per Zimmerman re-enactment) or down a few units by Brandy's place out of visual range.

It is interesting how Martin would have been able to see Zimmerman and not the reverse unless in a location where he was unable to be observed

 

[BUTCH1]

This strikes me as willful lies, though I know that's not your true intent. Not sure how you get to your conclusion, though I recognize it's shared by a great number of folks following the case.

It's quite clear at this point that TM was not in fear because evidence shows it's likely TM started the assault. In your own words you say TM ran away in fear, that's a lie. If he ran away in fear he'd have made it home. Have you considered that TM ran away to hide, not in fear, but to hide prior to his assault? How do you reconcile that without more lies?

Your viewpoint completely disregards the most important part of what the trial showed. That though nothing regarding the assault is 100% certain, it was shown that TM possibly (likely) had ill will on his mind when he double backed and attacked GZ. Striking someone first in that setting being grounds for showing ill will and not fear if we take agendas out of our considerations.

Then again if GZ FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given to him by the dispatch, none of this would have happened and why else besides fear would you run off??felt like excising?. All we have are GZ's account of what happened and he's proven his ability to lie and manipulate. How could have planned to "double back and hide", he didn't even know GZ had left the car at that point, more than likely stopped running thinking he'd lost him and started walking and talking on the phone again and GZ's story of "finding and address" is laughable as proved by the prosecutor, there were only three streets in the area and GZ knew the entire neighborhood like the back of his hand but hey, he needed an excuse to explain going after TM and that one fit the bill.

 

[Tom]

WHAT IF should never be part of deciding if someone is guilty or not.

Guilty, I agree.

Not guilty ? "What if" is an accepted way to establish reasonable doubt if the evidence doesn't contradict the "what if".

 

[Darkman]

Looks like a huge crowd this morning.

Karla Ray @KRayWFTV Jury is back in the courtroom. We are outside with the sole protestor here today- holding up a peace sign that says 'we love you George'

None "Will you marry me George" yet?

or ... "I'll have your child George" ? ......

 

[Attic]

Bottom line is that it's not that difficult to believe GZ's account of what occurred. Professionals involved state that GZ was being honest and that inconsistences are not what they've been made out to be. GZ bears responsibility for being in the situation he was in, but he's not responsible for TM's actions that night.

What caused the shot was the assault, what caused the assault was TM. Yes GZ was a part of that, and undeniably if he stayed in his car the assault would not have occurred. In no way does that shift the responsibility of the assault away from TM to GZ, it was not GZ who intended the assault, it was quite obvious that TM intended the assault.

Everybody gets into situations that they otherwise would not had they stayed in bed all day, or in a car. More than anything it seems the country is arguing about who had the responsibility for the encounter between GZ and TM and it's meaning, vs who had responsibility for the assault and the meaning of that.

 

[Darkman]

That guy was awesome.

If you haven't yet ... - you should check some other videos by that guy when you feel like it ...

https://www.youtube.com/user/painlessrisen?feature=watch

I agree ... He is great!

 

[Londo_Jowo]

He'd never done that before, what changed that night? The fact he was armed, maybe?

I do believe he carried concealed every day after he received his permit in case he ran across the dog (BigBoi).

 

[EagleKeeper]

In your ambush plan, what tactic did Martin use to get Zimmmerman out of his truck ?

There was no tactic; at the point there was no plan by Martin.
By taking off the way he did, it may have triggered the response of Zimmerman; unplanned by Martin.

Martin did not think of Zimmerman as prey until Zimmerman reappeared at the top of the T.

why would you think otherwise

 

[Ichinisan]

I don't "expect" any particular verdict.

It is a fact that Zimmerman refers to Martin as a "suspect", as well as other more colorful derogatory terms. And expresses his desire to have him stopped.

GZ was justifiably suspicious of TM. The target of suspicion can be referred to as a "suspect." That was an appropriate term. It means you have not made a solid conclusion about the actions or intentions of the person.