Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Fern]

God some of still just don't get it. His reasons were completely invalid. He saw no crime and till this day Trayvon Martin was not seen commtting any crime. When will some of you going to get it through your thick skulls, people's appearance and dress are not legal reasons for suspicion.

And when will some of you 'get it' that suspicion is NOT determined by whether or not someone is actually committing, or intending to commit, a crime.

A person can committing or intending to commit a crime and not appear suspicious at all.

And a person can appear suspicious if not committing or intending to commit a crime.

And there is no such thing as "legal reasons" for suspicion. There is no law defining what elements are legal, or not legal, in determining suspicion.

The Israelis have proven to highly effective in profiling. If you google the subject, as I have, you will find they use elements I have described above.

Fern

 

[soundforbjt]

You said this before and I really didn't give it much weight but you could be right about this. Hopefully we'll eventually get a better insight on the evidence and witness statements.

I may be proven wrong, but either someone lied or didn't see what they thought they did.

 

[MH2007]

I would like to see a trial, not a plea deal. This of course is the bloodthirsty spectator in me talking.

If I'm being honest, a plea deal appears to be the logical outcome. Zimmerman sounds like he's broken and doesn't have the stomach for a trial.

We're almost certainly going to see Zimmerman go before a judge and try to show that his actions were in self defense.

 

[Geosurface]

I agree with karmypolitics, I want to see a trial. I want it all televised, I want it in depth... long... I watched every minute of Casey Anthony trial that could be had on the web, which was most of it.

I remember when I was 14 and visiting Miami, watching most of the O.J. trial on TV instead of going out and enjoying the sun and beaches haha (but then, I'm not really that type... full blooded Irish and my skin is roughly the color of printer paper so the sun and I have a delicate relationship)

 

[MH2007]

Just for your listening enjoyment DVC.

BITCHS AINT SHIT by Ricky Flow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmJY5Eyr6LM


This makes no credible point to Don Vito or anyone else. This post has no place in this discussion. Consider yourself warned.

Perknose
Forum Director

There was some back and forth between Don Vito and myself whether or not that video from what is apparently Martin's YouTube page was or was not Trayvon's voice.

 

[QueBert]

As I sit here I'm actually sort of flabberghasted... I'd love to know what the prosecutor in this trial is going to lay out as the supposed scenario that justifies 2nd degree murder?

I mean it seems very clear from the available info that Z didn't plan to ever actually come into direct contact with T, didn't want to kill anyone, deeply regrets having to, was being beaten and got jumped... he has the injuries, he has the eyewitness who saw him being beaten and screaming for help...

how can it possibly be anything other than self-defense?

The distance the shot was fired at, if Trayvon had got off him and Georgie still shot it was in no way shape or form self defense. Remember there's also a witness who didn't see Trayvon on top of him right before the shot rang out. I'm not disputing Georgie got hit a few times, but if the shot wasn't justified, it wasn't justified. And if Travon had stood up, then there's no possible self defense claim.

Obviously they have enough evidence to charge him with 2nd degree murder, which tells me they know something that points to it being far from self defense. One thing's for sure they know a lot more than any of us, so I'm going to have good reasoning here. They could have easily charged him with simply Manslaughter and people wouldn't have rioted.

 

[classy]

Hey where did everybody go, Levitz?

 

[MH2007]

Obviously the real evidence shows Zimmerman is probably lying, since that's the only evidence his brother is repeating.

Zimmerman's account is as much "real evidence" as anything else and we still have to wait and see what the totality of the evidence is that Corey has in her possession.

You don't know the autopsy results, the funeral director said his body was clean but that's not a forensic analysis. Even if it was "clean" that would only indicate Martin was winning the fight which would be consistent with Zimmerman's account.

As far as the grass Zimmerman's brother said that George struggled and was able to move from the concrete to the grass to avoid permanent damage to his head, showing great restraint in the process.

The interpretation that the CNN witness said Zimmerman was on top when the shot was fired was an overstatement by Ashleigh Banfield that she has since backed off from. If you listen to the 911 call from that witness you would realize that this is not a reliable witness and really did not see anywhere near as much as some are making out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call7.ogg

EDIT: And remember Corey was nothing but complementary of the police investigation so their claim that their evidence supports Zimmerman shouldn't be discounted so lightly.

 

[soundforbjt]

If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he'd be a free man. Obviously he lied.

 

[Fern]

I would like to see a trial, not a plea deal. This of course is the bloodthirsty spectator in me talking.
-snip-

Yes, now that Z is charged I want to see a trial too.

But not because of any "bloodthirsty" reason. I want to see one and not a plea deal because I believe that's the only way we'll get to see all the evidence.

I want to see it because I want to judge for myself if the investigation was bad/good, whether the initial decision to not charge seems reasonable, whether Z's story holds up (actually, to really know what his story is since we haven't heard anything from him directly). And to address the issue of whether this charge is justified, or whether 'political' pressure played a substantial role in the Murder 2 charge.

We've already been able to review many media reports and most have judged their accuracy to be poor. After the evidence all comes out how they look then?

Fern

 

[Londo_Jowo]

There was some back and forth between Don Vito and myself whether or not that video from what is apparently Martin's YouTube page was or was not Trayvon's voice.

I know. I'm sure after the some of the comments back then that DVC would see the humor in me posting a link to it for his listening pleasure.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I may be proven wrong, but either someone lied or didn't see what they thought they did.

Maybe the evidence didn't back up GZ's story quite as well as I initially thought, then again I was basing my thoughts on Police Chief Lee's and SA Norm Wolfinger's statements on why they didn't charge him the night of the incident.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yes, now that Z is charged I want to see a trial too.

But not because of any "bloodthirsty" reason. I want to see one and not a plea deal because I believe that's the only way we'll get to see all the evidence.

I want to see it because I want to judge for myself if the investigation was bad/good, whether the initial decision to not charge seems reasonable, whether Z's story holds up (actually, to really know what his story is since we haven't heard anything from him directly). And to address the issue of whether this charge is justified, or whether 'political' pressure played a substantial role in the Murder 2 charge.

We've already been able to review many media reports and most have judged their accuracy to be poor. After the evidence all comes out how they look then?

Fern

Agree wholeheartedly!

 

[BUTCH1]

I agree and I've said many times in this thread and elsewhere, I wish there had been no gun present that night and that Z had just gotten a beating and Trayvon an assault arrest, and both gone home alive.

But here's the thing. Even granting that Z could've been smarter about how he went about things... could've been more cautious, and I don't think anyone really disputes that... we know that nothing he did was illegal. It wasn't illegal to be suspicious right or wrong, it wasn't illegal to get out of his car, it wasn't illegal to keep an eye on this stranger... it wasn't illegal for him to carry the weapon, it wasn't illegal for him to fire at his assailant after a full minute of being pummeled, having his nose broken, head slammed on concrete, and then being directly threatened with murder verbally, as the assailant attempted to relieve him of his firearm.

So if no individual step of what he did that night was illegal in any way, how can it be right for him to serve time? Or even go to trial? No crime committed at any stage of it.

DVC can one really get a crime by assembling 10 non crimes?

"Keep an eye on a stranger" kind of sugar-coating don't 'ya think?, how about "left his SUV and chased after down a walkway"..

 

[bfdd]

He should have been charged, but now it's a joke. He cannot possibly have a fair trial by jury as the media has already caused far to much damage to the public opinion of him before he had charges pushed against him. It's a travesty that this has been handled the way it was, but I just can't see him getting a fair trial now and I think they should throw it out. I really think he probably would have done time on manslaughter charges if the media didn't blow this shit out like retarded mother fuckers all because they wanted to make a buck.

 

[Fern]

If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he'd be a free man. Obviously he lied.

How is that obvious?

How is it even proven yet?

Before he was charged, some claimed the lack of charges proved no evidence against him and proved his innocence.

Many of you disagreed

Now that he is charged, we have some of you essentially flip-flopping: Claiming that charges prove evidence against and prove his guilt.

At this point we have two prosecutors who looking at the evidence, possibly the exact same evidence, and reaching the opposite conclusion. I think to now to claim anything is clear-cut or obvious is foolhardy and unsupportable.

We may find it a gray area type thing requiring judgement, or we may find one prosecutor looks incompetent in some fashion.

My point being, we just don't know at this time.

Edit: Another point is that today's development, the filing of charges, has done little to advance our knowledge of the facts necessary to determine if Z is guilty of a crime. We need the evidence for that and we've got nothing new.

Fern

 

[MH2007]

Here's a key two part question everyone here should ask themselves:

If this case hadn't gained national attention would Zimmerman have been charged?

Is there any evidence available now that wasn't available before?

Don't forget that Norm Wolfinger had impaneled the Apr 10 Grand Jury three weeks after the shooting. Angela Corey was on the case about three weeks before she brought charges. There was already some national attention when Wolfinger was on but obviously not as much as there is now. But I think it most likely would have gone to the Grand Jury if he stayed on and we really can't know for certain what would have happened there without seeing all the evidence.

As for what evidence is available know it's hard to say. I would presume so but keep in mind that Corey commended the police investigation so speculation about what that evidence might be should be kept in check.

 

[QueBert]

He should have been charged, but now it's a joke. He cannot possibly have a fair trial by jury as the media has already caused far to much damage to the public opinion of him before he had charges pushed against him. It's a travesty that this has been handled the way it was, but I just can't see him getting a fair trial now and I think they should throw it out. I really think he probably would have done time on manslaughter charges if the media didn't blow this shit out like retarded mother fuckers all because they wanted to make a buck.

He can't get a fair trial? really? My neighbor considers him a hero for killing a "piece of shit thug" There are at least as many people out there who believe his story as ones who already think he's guilty. If he gets a jury full of people like my neighbor or Spidey07, he'll walk scott free and get a reward for good deed he did to society.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Just for your listening enjoyment DVC.

BITCHS AINT SHIT by Ricky Flow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmJY5Eyr6LM


Warning revoked. This post was the result of a proper exchange between LJ and DVC.


Perknose
Forum Director

Thanks Perk. This was never meant as an insult or a thread crap. Just a poorly timed inside joke.

 

[MH2007]

I'm talking about a law that lets someone shoot someone else and then go home the same night.

Well that wasn't clear from the context. As far as the law it's my opinion that the reasonable doubt burden for disproving self defense is more of an issue than Stand Your Ground itself.

 

[xj0hnx]

The distance the shot was fired at, if Trayvon had got off him and Georgie still shot it was in no way shape or form self defense. Remember there's also a witness who didn't see Trayvon on top of him right before the shot rang out. I'm not disputing Georgie got hit a few times, but if the shot wasn't justified, it wasn't justified. And if Travon had stood up, then there's no possible self defense claim.

LOLwut!?! Just because he got up off of him doesn't mean he wasn't rearing back to give him a kick to the face, that is a stupid assumption on your part.

 

[Rainsford]

Yes, now that Z is charged I want to see a trial too.

But not because of any "bloodthirsty" reason. I want to see one and not a plea deal because I believe that's the only way we'll get to see all the evidence.

I want to see it because I want to judge for myself if the investigation was bad/good, whether the initial decision to not charge seems reasonable, whether Z's story holds up (actually, to really know what his story is since we haven't heard anything from him directly). And to address the issue of whether this charge is justified, or whether 'political' pressure played a substantial role in the Murder 2 charge.

We've already been able to review many media reports and most have judged their accuracy to be poor. After the evidence all comes out how they look then?

Fern

I agree, I want to see a real trial too and see all the evidence and arguments come out. That may not be the perfect antidote to the weeks of speculating and arguing that too many (myself included) ended up engaging in. But it's the best we're going to get, and it's how the system should work.

It's going to be impossible to say whether political pressure played a role in deciding to charge Zimmerman, I doubt we'll ever REALLY know. But that would also be a problem if the decision was made NOT to charge Zimmerman, since there is a sizable political movement pushing for that as well. At least the trial gives the option for him to be determined innocent or guilty in a (hopefully) less political environment.

 

[MH2007]

And yet Zimmerman is still charged with 2nd degree murder.

Guess Corey knows more than John.

Obviously Corey has a more completely view of all of the evidence than John. That doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the reliability of his testimony, which is far more than Cutcher, Lamilla, or CNN's "eyewitness"

He saw more of the fight than anyone else we know of. He was close enough to speak to Martin and observe that Zimmerman was in red and that he was the one yelling for help.

 

[soundforbjt]

How is that obvious?

How is it even proven yet?

Before he was charged, some claimed the lack of charges proved no evidence against him and proved his innocence.

Many of you disagreed

Now that he is charged, we have some of you essentially flip-flopping: Claiming that charges prove evidence against and prove his guilt.

At this point we have two prosecutors who looking at the evidence, possibly the exact same evidence, and reaching the opposite conclusion. I think to now to claim anything is clear-cut or obvious is foolhardy and unsupportable.

We may find it a gray area type thing requiring judgement, or we may find one prosecutor looks incompetent in some fashion.

My point being, we just don't know at this time.

Edit: Another point is that today's development, the filing of charges, has done little to advance our knowledge of the facts necessary to determine if Z is guilty of a crime. We need the evidence for that and we've got nothing new.

Fern

True, but something caused them not to believe Z's version of events. Otherwise no charges would have been filed.

 

[QueBert]

LOLwut!?! Just because he got up off of him doesn't mean he wasn't rearing back to give him a kick to the face, that is a stupid assumption on your part.

You ever been in a fight? This is pretty much how it always goes, a person in a dominating mount position isn't going to stand up unless they're done fighting. There's absolutely no reason to switch your tactic when you are in a position of total power. And if the reports of Zimmerman screaming like a little girl while he was mounted are true. Which I believe they are, then no 100% if Trayvon got up it wasn't so he could kick him. Giving up dominate position in a fight the stupidest thing you can do.