Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Don Vito Corleone]

Yes it would have likely saved his life...hindsight and all I believe Z wishes every moment since then that he had waited.

I fully expect he feels terrible about this. If he is a decent human being (which I don't doubt - we are not talking about Ted Bundy here) this incident will haunt him for the rest of his life. Honestly this case is a perfect illustration of why I have no interest in carrying a concealed weapon, although I own and am proficient with a pistol. Zimmerman is, probably, a decent guy who made an error in judgment, and now he's faced with, at best, being ostracized and, at worst, spending decades in prison (and even a short prison sentence will be particularly rough due to the nature of the crime he would have been convicted of). In either case he gets to spend his remaining years picturing Trayvon's face and thinking, "Why did I get out of the car?"

 

[airdata]

The kid being black makes all the difference. It makes people like you have the 'mmm.. whatever' attitude toward the case. Because after all... it's just a black kid, right?

The 911 call proves that the killer was following the victim and initiated the confrontation.

The testimony of the victims girlfriend proves that he was being followed and was probably scared that he was going to be assaulted or robbed... or murdered as it so happened.

This is 2012. If we're taking a murders word for it, lets just oepen up the prison doors and let people out that say they're innocent.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Yet there have been numerous family members of zimmerman who have stated on record that he was a mentor for 2 young black kids...



The 'endless conjecture' comes from all sides.

And two neighborhood Black teens who describe George as "creepy" and "overzealous".

 

[Londo_Jowo]

This is sad, a great cop and person screwed by the politics of situation. I only hope that this temporary, but I suspect it will not be.

I just wonder what the response of the city manager and city commission will be should Police chief Lee statements on the case be proven true.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Yet there have been numerous family members of zimmerman who have stated on record that he was a mentor for 2 young black kids...



The 'endless conjecture' comes from all sides.

As I have repeatedly said here, I don't think this death occurred out of any racial animus (though the "fucking coons" line changes my thinking on that somewhat). I certainly don't think Mr. Zimmerman thought, "I'm going to kill me a my excellent compatriot!"

I have no doubt that one of the factors that made Mr. Martin look suspicious to Mr. Zimmerman was his race, together with his age, his gender, his dress, and the fact that he appeared to be walking through a gated neighborhood at night with no clear purpose. Anyone acting in a neighborhood watch capacity would be a moron to disregard these factors. A black teen male is far likelier to be a threat to the community than, say, an older white female. This isn't racism - it's the truth, and anyone who ignores that reality does so at his own peril.

I do think Mr. Martin's race was, in that sense, a motivation for pursuing him, but, in and of itself, in no way suggests this was a hate crime. Again, the "coons" line is a big deal to me, but even then I don't really see this as a racially motivated attack (assuming there ever was an attack by Zimmerman). Of course, if you are Trayvon Martin or his family, you might legitimately find this upsetting - obviously Trayvon didn't choose his race and it can't be a good feeling to incite fear in other people simply because you are what you were born as - a black male.

 

[corwin]

And two neighborhood Black teens who describe George as "creepy" and "overzealous".

As he said...endless conjecture from all sides...and "creepy" and "overzealous" are hardly racist terms.

The kid being black makes all the difference. It makes people like you have the 'mmm.. whatever' attitude toward the case. Because after all... it's just a black kid, right?

The 911 call proves that the killer was following the victim and initiated the confrontation.

The testimony of the victims girlfriend proves that he was being followed and was probably scared that he was going to be assaulted or robbed... or murdered as it so happened.

This is 2012. If we're taking a murders word for it, lets just oepen up the prison doors and let people out that say they're innocent.

And if you're referring to me as I said, keep living in your own reality and believe what you want...Z was overzealous and T was hyper sensitive and probably hostile...both of those added up to a tragedy in this situation

 

[corwin]

As I have repeatedly said here, I don't think this death occurred out of any racial animus (though the "fucking coons" line changes my thinking on that somewhat). I certainly don't think Mr. Zimmerman thought, "I'm going to kill me a my excellent compatriot!"

I don't think saying that changes anything, personally saying something like that in the heat of the moment should be viewed as an isolated incident meant to insult the person it is aimed at, not necessarily aimed at the entire race or even indicating a bias against that race unless it is shown to be a pattern of behavior or actions. If you called a women a fucking bitch (deserved or not) does that mean you're automatically sexist?

 

[micrometers]

You know, there was an equally heartbreaking story of a white man who was shot by a black man in front of his 8 year old daughter. The black man is citing SYG as his defense, and a ruling is expected shortly.

IT hardly received any attention relative to this.

 

[werepossum]

Like you, I was struck (and commented somewhere in this thread) by Zimmerman's seemingly calm and reasonable tone during his initial 911 call (I had not picked up on the "fucking coons" part at that point). It does seem as though he might have backed off if directed by the 911 operator, though of course it also possible he would have reacted in action movie fashion, saying "No time for backup!" and charging off in pursuit of Martin anyway. I think we can all agree (with the possible exception of spidey) that Zimmerman does not have the temperament to be trustworthy in the role of armed law enforcement.

That part of the tape I heard was very low volume and completely unintelligible, although that might have been altered for radio because of the profanity and/or racial slur. And yes, my first concrete conclusion was that thank goodness Zimmerman's aspirations to be a law enforcement officer are now over. He obviously does not have the required temperament to be a good cop. (For that matter, neither do I.)

Yes it would have likely saved his life...hindsight and all I believe Z wishes every moment since then that he had waited.

Agreed.

 

[xplosiveone]

As he said...endless conjecture from all sides...and "creepy" and "overzealous" are hardly racist terms.

And if you're referring to me as I said, keep living in your own reality and believe what you want...Z was overzealous and T was hyper sensitive and probably hostile...both of those added up to a tragedy in this situation

Have a stranger follow you at night and let me know how hyper sensitive and hostile you get.

Some of the people on here a ridiculous...

 

[blankslate]

They BOTH made choices that directly or indirectly escalated the encounter...and it doesn't matter how that operator phrased a statement that had no binding on a persons actions, not that it didn't have real world implications

Trayvon Martins initial action after looking at Mr. Zimmerman was to escape the encounter. Mr. Zimmerman's was to leave his vehicle and follow. Riddle me this, whose initial reaction would have been more likely to lead to an uneventful night if successful?

It certainly wasn't Mr. Zimmerman's.

If Trayvon Martin made to his destination it damn well would have been Trayvon Martin's reaction.

 

[corwin]

You know, there was an equally heartbreaking story of a white man who was shot by a black man in front of his 8 year old daughter. The black man is citing SYG as his defense, and a ruling is expected shortly.

IT hardly received any attention relative to this.

Doesn't make for a good headline...I would be curious though where and what conditions...not that we need to discuss this here

 

[xplosiveone]

You know, there was an equally heartbreaking story of a white man who was shot by a black man in front of his 8 year old daughter. The black man is citing SYG as his defense, and a ruling is expected shortly.

IT hardly received any attention relative to this.

Has the black man been arrested?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Z was overzealous and T was hyper sensitive and probably hostile...both of those added up to a tragedy in this situation

The statement is spot on.

I don't believe Z set out to murder T. Based on what the girl's statement concerning the phone call it doesn't sounds like Z was that overly aggressive either. Without knowing the extent and location of Z's wounds it's hard to tell if he had grounds to be fearful or his life or great bodily harm.

 

[micrometers]

Has the black man been arrested?

he is on trial

Of course, there were 3 witnesses to the shooting itself.

 

[blankslate]

You know, there was an equally heartbreaking story of a white man who was shot by a black man in front of his 8 year old daughter. The black man is citing SYG as his defense, and a ruling is expected shortly.

IT hardly received any attention relative to this.

What are the circumstances? Who started the fight? Was the shooter arrested? Which state did it take place in. As was mentioned in other threads SYG laws do vary from state to state.

A ruling is expected shortly? How long ago was it and what were the charges? Murder in it's varying degrees or manslaughter? Or is it a grand jury ruling?

I'm asking because when I supposed that Mr. Zimmerman wouldn't be able to get a law enforcement job someone mentioned an acquaintance who got a job with the D.E.A. after being involved in a self-defense shooting. When asked about that, it turned out that the D.E.A. acquaintance shot a person who had broken into his home. That is a much different situation that the events leading up to Trayvon Martin's death.

In short while the case you're citing may very well be as outrageous as the Trayvon Martin seems to be given the 911 tapes and his phone call to his girlfriend we don't know... Although an 8 year old seeing her father shot in front of her very eyes is awful enough.

 

[corwin]

Trayvon Martins initial action after looking at Mr. Zimmerman was to escape the encounter. Mr. Zimmerman's was to leave his vehicle and follow. Riddle me this, whose initial reaction would have been more likely to lead to an uneventful night if successful?

It certainly wasn't Mr. Zimmerman's.

If Trayvon Martin made to his destination it damn well would have been Trayvon Martin's reaction.

Had T's action truly been to get back home immediately there's no way in hell Z could have caught up with him, and with no "dead ends" to "trap" him how did the two ever meet? T had to make the decision to confront him and likely did so with hostility and possibly violence.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I don't think saying that changes anything, personally saying something like that in the heat of the moment should be viewed as an isolated incident meant to insult the person it is aimed at, not necessarily aimed at the entire race or even indicating a bias against that race unless it is shown to be a pattern of behavior or actions. If you called a women a fucking bitch (deserved or not) does that mean you're automatically sexist?

I don't think we fundamentally disagree on this point (i.e., whether or not "coons" turns this incident into a hate crime), but I will say a couple of things to your points:

- Mr. Zimmerman wasn't talking to Mr. Martin when he (apparently) said "fucking coons" - he was expressing frustration to a third party. His voice actually sounded fairly calm and I don't think it lends itself to the interpretation that this was a heat-of-the-moment comment made out of anger.

- I don't think "bitch" and "my excellent compatriot" are in any way fungible. I don't want to spin off into a larger philosophical debate about sexism vs. racism, but I don't in any way consider "bitch" hate speech - in fact it might accurately describe the way a particular female is acting at a particular time. I don't think I know a woman who has not, at some point, used the word "bitch" in my presence to refer to another woman, and I don't think that means they dislike all women.

- I would not use "my excellent compatriot" or another racial epithet to refer to a group of people, regardless of the situation. I find those terms offensive and, because I don't harbor such a categorically negative view of another race, I wouldn't use them. I think most people would say the same thing (though obviously each of us is an individual). In my view Mr. Zimmerman's use of "coons" (if that's what he said) does reflect racism toward black people.

 

[micrometers]

Had T's action truly been to get back home immediately there's no way in hell Z could have caught up with him, and with no "dead ends" to "trap" him how did the two ever meet? T had to make the decision to confront him and likely did so with hostility and possibly violence.

I wouldn't be surprised if T lost track of where he was.

 

[micrometers]

What are the circumstances? Who started the fight? Was the shooter arrested? Which state did it take place in. As was mentioned in other threads SYG laws do vary from state to state.

A ruling is expected shortly? How long ago was it and what were the charges? Or is it a grand jury ruling?

Trevor Dooley in FL.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/31...Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder

I'd say that in this instance, Dooley initiated the conflict. It appeared that the air force vet was getting the upper hand. Then Dooley shot him in front of an 8 year old girl and several other children.

 

[soundforbjt]

Had T's action truly been to get back home immediately there's no way in hell Z could have caught up with him, and with no "dead ends" to "trap" him how did the two ever meet? T had to make the decision to confront him and likely did so with hostility and possibly violence.

Nope Z knew the neighborhood well and T was there less than a week and it was dark, All the buildings look the same, Advantage to Z.

 

[corwin]

Have a stranger follow you at night and let me know how hyper sensitive and hostile you get.

Some of the people on here a ridiculous...

Yes I can see ridiculous from here...and yes I would be cautious but if they walked up and asked me a question I wouldn't be hostile, especially when I wasn't in my own neighborhood. From the girls own words he didn't walk up and point the gun at him or yell or scream, he asked a simple question

 

[xplosiveone]

Had T's action truly been to get back home immediately there's no way in hell Z could have caught up with him, and with no "dead ends" to "trap" him how did the two ever meet? T had to make the decision to confront him and likely did so with hostility and possibly violence.

Way to place all the blame on the victim. It's his fault he didn't run all the way home. Forget the fact that Z chose to leave his car to pursue T and escalate the situation after being told he doesn't need to do that.

That's a nice perspective you have...

 

[soundforbjt]

Yes I can see ridiculous from here...and yes I would be cautious but if they walked up and asked me a question I wouldn't be hostile, especially when I wasn't in my own neighborhood. From the girls own words he didn't walk up and point the gun at him or yell or scream, he asked a simple question

But with what tone of voice? The way you say something definately matters.

 

[werepossum]

You know, there was an equally heartbreaking story of a white man who was shot by a black man in front of his 8 year old daughter. The black man is citing SYG as his defense, and a ruling is expected shortly.

IT hardly received any attention relative to this.

Black on white crime, though far more common, rarely receives any attention because it's not politically correct and there is no white victimization industry as there is for black victims. But the underlying reason for that disparity is also valid. There is a history of white on black crime being ignored and sometimes even perpetrated by the authorities. This drove the creation of this politically correct division and the formation of the black victimization industry. There simply isn't as much need to agitate for the protection of whites as no one in power is systematically oppressing or denying the benefits of civilization to white people on the basis of their race. Jews have the same thing, special persecution and unequal protection driving the formation of Jewish-specific defense organizations and mechanisms. Ditto with homosexuals and Muslims. Every identifiable minority group that feels oppressed will react by developing defense mechanisms if allowed to do so, and this is still a free country.

Sadly, this type of behavior is not completely abolished, so there is still some legitimate need for these separate institutions and politically correct double standards. Sucks, but life isn't fair for anyone.