It also occurred in Florida.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/arti...Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder
What are the circumstances? Who started the fight? Was the shooter arrested? Which state did it take place in. As was mentioned in other threads SYG laws do vary from state to state.
A ruling is expected shortly? How long ago was it and what were the charges? Murder in it's varying degrees or manslaughter? Or is it a grand jury ruling?
I'm asking because when I supposed that Mr. Zimmerman wouldn't be able to get a law enforcement job someone mentioned an acquaintance who got a job with the D.E.A. after being involved in a self-defense shooting. When asked about that, it turned out that the D.E.A. acquaintance shot a person who had broken into his home. That is a much different situation that the events leading up to Trayvon Martin's death.
In short while the case you're citing may very well be as outrageous as the Trayvon Martin seems to be given the 911 tapes and his phone call to his girlfriend we don't know... Although an 8 year old seeing her father shot in front of her very eyes is awful enough.
After the police failing to catch any of the previous criminals in the area I can see why he chose the route he did...and yes it is a nice perspective I have, it's not clouded by emotion and hyperboleWay to place all the blame on the victim. It's his fault he didn't run all the way home. Forget the fact that Z chose to leave his car to pursue T and escalate the situation after being told he doesn't need to do that.
That's a nice perspective you have...
Right. While the Trayvon Martin case is ridiculous. Well, I feel like it is sucking up too much oxygen right now. In the big picture, the afghan shooter, the jewish school shooter are more important.
Yes I can see ridiculous from here...and yes I would be cautious but if they walked up and asked me a question I wouldn't be hostile, especially when I wasn't in my own neighborhood. From the girls own words he didn't walk up and point the gun at him or yell or scream, he asked a simple question
After the police failing to catch any of the previous criminals in the area I can see why he chose the route he did...and yes it is a nice perspective I have, it's not clouded by emotion and hyperbole
Trevor Dooley in FL.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/31...Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder
I'd say that in this instance, Dooley initiated the conflict. It appeared that the air force vet was getting the upper hand. Then Dooley shot him in front of an 8 year old girl and several other children.
Um, he didn't actually place ANY blame on the victim, much less all of it. He never said that Martin deserved any blame for confronting Zimmerman; he merely said Martin could have avoided Zimmerman had he chosen to run. Hard to see how that isn't true (although it's somewhat possible that Zimmerman might still have shot him in the back as he was "getting away" - that's something we can't possibly know either way.)Way to place all the blame on the victim. It's his fault he didn't run all the way home. Forget the fact that Z chose to leave his car to pursue T and escalate the situation after being told he doesn't need to do that.
That's a nice perspective you have...
That's your opinion. There are threads for those topics in this forum. This forums is for the shooting in Florida so please stick to the topic or continue to defend Zimmerman more with your outragous conjectures or fantasies not unlike spidey07 or alkyemist.
After the police failing to catch any of the previous criminals in the area I can see why he chose the route he did...and yes it is a nice perspective I have, it's not clouded by emotion and hyperbole
Um, he didn't actually place ANY blame on the victim, much less all of it. He never said that Martin deserved any blame for confronting Zimmerman; he merely said Martin could have avoided Zimmerman had he chosen to run. Hard to see how that isn't true (although it's somewhat possible that Zimmerman might still have shot him in the back as he was "getting away" - that's something we can't possibly know either way.)
Had Martin chosen to run, his life would probably not have been taken. That isn't saying that Martin is responsible for his own death or that he had any obligation to run, and it doesn't excuse Zimmerman for his own bad judgment in following, confronting, and ultimately killing this kid. It's just a reasonable extrapolation of the known facts.
Um, he didn't actually place ANY blame on the victim, much less all of it. He never said that Martin deserved any blame for confronting Zimmerman; he merely said Martin could have avoided Zimmerman had he chosen to run. Hard to see how that isn't true (although it's somewhat possible that Zimmerman might still have shot him in the back as he was "getting away" - that's something we can't possibly know either way.)
Had Martin chosen to run, his life would probably not have been taken. That isn't saying that Martin is responsible for his own death or that he had any obligation to run, and it doesn't excuse Zimmerman for his own bad judgment in following, confronting, and ultimately killing this kid. It's just a reasonable extrapolation of the known facts.
Um, he didn't actually place ANY blame on the victim, much less all of it. He never said that Martin deserved any blame for confronting Zimmerman; he merely said Martin could have avoided Zimmerman had he chosen to run. Hard to see how that isn't true (although it's somewhat possible that Zimmerman might still have shot him in the back as he was "getting away" - that's something we can't possibly know either way.)
Had Martin chosen to run, his life would probably not have been taken. That isn't saying that Martin is responsible for his own death or that he had any obligation to run, and it doesn't excuse Zimmerman for his own bad judgment in following, confronting, and ultimately killing this kid. It's just a reasonable extrapolation of the known facts.
According to his GF yes he did just walk up to him...you calling her a liar now?I don't believe Z just walked up to him, he chased him. In addition, Z also had in his mind that T was suspicious and he wasn't going to let him get away. I don't think these combination of events leads to a friendly questioning session.
I said that's why he chose to get out of his truck...So you're saying Zimmerman had to catch this "criminal" since the police had failed before?
Police are there to investigate after something happens, we are all responsible for our action (or as you seem to be a proponent of, inaction) in our livesYea, that's all fine and dandy until you chase an innocent teen that ends up dead as a result of poor decisions.
Who needs a police department when we have armed citizens that can handle the crime fighting thingy?
That's pretty much it...all too many things just don't add up...he was running away from Z but somehow when he was talking to his GF he just walks up and talks to him? There's too many conflicting statements from too many people to know what is what...and I'm sure there's a lot of physical evidence that hasn't been released yet that should paint a much better picture.Um, he didn't actually place ANY blame on the victim, much less all of it. He never said that Martin deserved any blame for confronting Zimmerman; he merely said Martin could have avoided Zimmerman had he chosen to run. Hard to see how that isn't true (although it's somewhat possible that Zimmerman might still have shot him in the back as he was "getting away" - that's something we can't possibly know either way.)
Had Martin chosen to run, his life would probably not have been taken. That isn't saying that Martin is responsible for his own death or that he had any obligation to run, and it doesn't excuse Zimmerman for his own bad judgment in following, confronting, and ultimately killing this kid. It's just a reasonable extrapolation of the known facts.
There is one very valid reason that the Martin case deserves to take up so much oxygen. There was a time in this country when the killing of a black man by a white man was treated as a much less serious thing than a black man killing a white man. Sometimes the former was treated as if it were not really a crime at all. (We see the same situation today in some Muslim nations.) This case superficially fits that same pattern, so it's legitimate to ask if we've really fixed this problem. Are we finally living up to our creed expressed so well in our Declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Maker with certain unalienable rights? It's not a trivial question because for roughly two centuries we failed to do so. Hell, for a century we didn't even pretend to do so, some men were born with all G_d-given rights while others were born without those rights, to be given a limited subset of rights as free men deemed appropriate.Right. While the Trayvon Martin case is ridiculous. Well, I feel like it is sucking up too much oxygen right now. In the big picture, the afghan shooter, the jewish school shooter are more important.
I have a dream that one day everyone can equally ghetto stomp.Are we finally living up to our creed expressed so well in our Declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Maker with certain unalienable rights?
Stay classyKeep hugging this murderer's nuts...
According to his GF yes he did just walk up to him...you calling her a liar now?
Police are there to investigate after something happens, we are all responsible for our action (or as you seem to be a proponent of, inaction) in our lives
Thank you. I do try. LOLWow, another good post in this thread.
Pretty much. There are many ways Zimmerman could have avoided this situation; there are perhaps one or two ways Martin might have avoided it. That's all speculation, but my point was that pointing out things that might have been done differently, leading to different conclusions, is not in and of itself assigning any blame. To assign blame to Martin for not evading Zimmerman is to place a moral or legal requirement on Martin to flee, and Corwin neither stated that nor implied it.OK, and had Z gone directly home after his errand T's life would not have been taken.
Are we just pointing out the obvious now?
Possibly. From what we've been told so far, Martin never actually ran; he merely walked faster and tried to avoid Zimmerman. I'd have done the same myself - I've got a perfect right to be here, why should I run? I'm not looking for trouble and I'll go to some reasonable lengths to avoid it, but there's a limit, and fuck him and the horse he rode in on if he pushes past that limit. Saying that in hind sight it would have been smarter for him to run is no different than stating that it would have been smarter for someone working in World Trade Center Tower 1 to call in sick on 9/11/01 - just a simple observation of fact, a musing on what might have been.But he did run. Z found him. Maybe T couldn't run the second time, Z could've been too close.
As I have repeatedly said here, I don't think this death occurred out of any racial animus (though the "fucking coons" line changes my thinking on that somewhat). I certainly don't think Mr. Zimmerman thought, "I'm going to kill me a my excellent compatriot!"
I have no doubt that one of the factors that made Mr. Martin look suspicious to Mr. Zimmerman was his race, together with his age, his gender, his dress, and the fact that he appeared to be walking through a gated neighborhood at night with no clear purpose. Anyone acting in a neighborhood watch capacity would be a moron to disregard these factors. A black teen male is far likelier to be a threat to the community than, say, an older white female. This isn't racism - it's the truth, and anyone who ignores that reality does so at his own peril.
I do think Mr. Martin's race was, in that sense, a motivation for pursuing him, but, in and of itself, in no way suggests this was a hate crime. Again, the "coons" line is a big deal to me, but even then I don't really see this as a racially motivated attack (assuming there ever was an attack by Zimmerman). Of course, if you are Trayvon Martin or his family, you might legitimately find this upsetting - obviously Trayvon didn't choose his race and it can't be a good feeling to incite fear in other people simply because you are what you were born as - a black male.
LOL Okay . . .I have a dream that one day everyone can equally ghetto stomp.
Agreed. Even if it turns out that he said "punks", it's hard to believe Zimmerman would have had the same intensity of reaction to a blue-eyed blonde. While Zimmerman might not be a racist objectively, he certainly seems to have some underlying issues with race. Either that or he's the most suspicious man on the planet, and it's hard to see how he could have avoided being thrown out of the Neighborhood Watch (if not the gated community) if he extended that level of suspicion equally to everyone walking through the community.I think you have to separate the reason he initially found Trayvon suspicious from how he chose to handle his suspicions. The "fucking my excellent compatriot" remark is strongly suggestive that Trayvon might well be alive today had he been white but had still been considered suspicious by Zimmerman for other reasons. That is a clear expression of race based animus right at the moment of his decision to pursue Trayvon with a gun in his pocket, as opposed to any number of other decisions he might have made.
Either way, that remark will give him a large credibility problem with most jurors. And the case will hinge on his credibility more than anything else.
Very true. If no one's life or safety is immediately in danger, it's best to let the police handle it. CCW should in my opinion be for those situations where waiting for the cops is not an option, not to allow you to dispense with the cops.Walk up, run up... I'm not going to argue with you about that.
Not a proponent of inaction, just a proponent against innocent unarmed people being killed in a situation that could have been easily avoided if an adult had chosen to listen to the 911 operator. If inaction, means waiting on police to handle a situation, then sometimes that's the right call. It obviously was here.
Right. While the Trayvon Martin case is ridiculous. Well, I feel like it is sucking up too much oxygen right now. In the big picture, the afghan shooter, the jewish school shooter are more important.
Thank you. I do try. LOL
Pretty much. There are many ways Zimmerman could have avoided this situation; there are perhaps one or two ways Martin might have avoided it. That's all speculation, but my point was that pointing out things that might have been done differently, leading to different conclusions, is not in and of itself assigning any blame. To assign blame to Martin for not evading Zimmerman is to place a moral or legal requirement on Martin to flee, and Corwin neither stated that nor implied it.
Possibly. From what we've been told so far, Martin never actually ran; he merely walked faster and tried to avoid Zimmerman. I'd have done the same myself - I've got a perfect right to be here, why should I run? I'm not looking for trouble and I'll go to some reasonable lengths to avoid it, but there's a limit, and fuck him and the horse he rode in on if he pushes past that limit. Saying that in hind sight it would have been smarter for him to run is no different than stating that it would have been smarter for someone working in World Trade Center Tower 1 to call in sick on 9/11/01 - just a simple observation of fact, a musing on what might have been.
At this point we don't really know what went down. It's possible that Martin decided to take out all his frustrations by attacking this irritating man who was stalking him. It's also possible that Zimmerman grabbed Martin after the initial verbal exchange, or even that he threw a punch. There are many plausible and understandable reasons Martin might not have run from Zimmerman - pride, being startled, feeling trapped, a desire not to seem like a pussy or a scared little kid while talking to his girlfriend, being unfamiliar with the area and therefore unsure where to flee are just a few that spring to mind. Martin had no legal or moral obligation to flee, so why he didn't flee changes nothing. We don't know any of that, so let's not assign any behavior to either party based on our own biases and prejudices.
Conflicting accounts again...Z said he ran, T's GF said she was talking to T when Z walked up and talked to him, no mention of him saying he had just ran from somebody, also from her statement he just asked what he was doing around there, no mention of "why did you run?"...how can those go together?Martin did run. Z mentions it in his 911 call.