Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Fern]

Without knowing all the details it's hard to really form a conclusive opinion one way or another, but it sure seems like these charges were filed because of political pressure, especially since the prior DA was not going to press charges. The political circus now means it's highly unlikely Zimmerman is getting a fair trial.

You have a point.

However, I'm not sure that the prior DA had definitively decided that no charges would be filed.

IIRC, the investigation was still ongoing when the new DA took over. If so, I don't think a definitive decision had been reached.

And again, bringing in the FBI with all their resources and expertise may have led to new/additional evidence resulting in the murder charge.

I think it quite likely that could have been merely political pressure that resulted in the charges. However, before I condemn the Spec Pros for that I'll wait to see what evidence they bring forth.

But if it does turn out that it's just political pressure from 'mob', I'll be very displeased. (Can't find the right word to adequately express how opposed I am to subjecting someone to a trial merely because it's the 'popular' thing to do.).

Fern

 

[QuantumPion]

Either they have evidence that Zimmerman initiated the fight which led to Martin's death, or it is simply a lynch mob. No way to tell until what evidence they have is revealed.

I can guarantee you though if they do go to court and he is found not guilty there will be race riots. It will not be pretty.

 

[Double Trouble]

Or it could be that political pressure fnally go them to do the right thing that they should have done from the beginning. Remember the path we took to get here, not every stop along the way was the right thing to do in the first place.

That's a very real possibility, and I'm not going to pretend that I know the real facts of the case. I'm just saying my observation, not having followed this story closely, is that the political pressure was simply too big for Zimmerman to walk without charges getting filed. With the media having stoked the fires, the prosecutor had to be under tremendous public pressure to file charges. She might also have a strong case, in which case Zimmerman is screwed because the media and general public have already convicted him.

 

[MH2007]

as I"ve said many times, they were passed with each other at the same time.

when people say "SYG" they do mean this statute which makes it difficult to arrest.

I wasn't aware that the reasonable doubt burden was actually an included part of it. If you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it, not sure if I'm not interpreting the statute correctly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida

Well that wasn't clear from the context. As far as the law it's my opinion that the reasonable doubt burden for disproving self defense is more of an issue than Stand Your Ground itself.

 

[Double Trouble]

You have a point.

However, I'm not sure that the prior DA had definitively decided that no charges would be filed.

IIRC, the investigation was still ongoing when the new DA took over. If so, I don't think a definitive decision had been reached.

And again, bringing in the FBI with all their resources and expertise may have led to new/additional evidence resulting in the murder charge.

I think it quite likely that could have been merely political pressure that resulted in the charges. However, before I condemn the Spec Pros for that I'll wait to see what evidence they bring forth.

But if it does turn out that it's just political pressure from 'mob', I'll be very displeased. (Can't find the right word to adequately express how opposed I am to subjecting someone to a trial merely because it's the 'popular' thing to do.).

Fern

Thanks for pretty much expressing what I was trying to say, but doing it better

 

[MH2007]

I will say that it was pretty much a no-brainer to charge him. Even if he successfully invokes SYG at the pretrial motions and gets off that way, at least something will have been done, and the authorities can "wash their hands" of this mess.

I think that might be what they had in mind, not sure. I believe when Angela Corey charged that 12 y.o. as an adult she said it was to apply pressure to force a deal. At least we should be able to get pretty much as full of a picture of everything that happened in that pretrial motion as we would in a jury trial.

 

[micrometers]

I wasn't aware that the reasonable doubt burden was actually an included part of it. If you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it, not sure if I'm not interpreting the statute correctly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida

it's right there at the bottom.

 

[classy]

You have a point.

However, I'm not sure that the prior DA had definitively decided that no charges would be filed.

IIRC, the investigation was still ongoing when the new DA took over. If so, I don't think a definitive decision had been reached.

And again, bringing in the FBI with all their resources and expertise may have led to new/additional evidence resulting in the murder charge.

I think it quite likely that could have been merely political pressure that resulted in the charges. However, before I condemn the Spec Pros for that I'll wait to see what evidence they bring forth.

But if it does turn out that it's just political pressure from 'mob', I'll be very displeased. (Can't find the right word to adequately express how opposed I am to subjecting someone to a trial merely because it's the 'popular' thing to do.).

Fern

Its just disgusting to read these kind of posts, the thousands of them. This guy is a murderer. In complete error he made assumptions and accusations about someone and all his suspicions were wrong. No matter how you think or feel, Trayvon Martin was hounded and eventually killed by a complete stranger all because the stranger didn't know him. That was it in a nutshell, the kid died because he was walking in neighborhood and some guy didn't know who he was. Gimme a break.

The kid had no weapons and given the circumstances had every right to defend himself against this person. Trayvon Martin did not commit a crime and thus should have never been put in that spot where he had to fight off a pursuer with a gun no less.

I can understand arguing the law, but these posts like you are uplifting and fighting for some hero is disgusting. He killed an innocent 17 year old kid. He is a killer that needs to be put behind bars. How you and so many others can just sit here and defend this man with like baited breath is just appalling. Its like you have no decency at all.

 

[Jaskalas]

But if it does turn out that it's just political pressure from 'mob', I'll be very displeased. (Can't find the right word to adequately express how opposed I am to subjecting someone to a trial merely because it's the 'popular' thing to do.).

If he's found not guilty, how many years in jail will he sit waiting for that verdict, 5?

I suspect his life is hereby ruined no matter what happens.

 

[MH2007]

Excellent. Works for me.

Fern

I believe that is what is happening in the Trevor Dooley case. The judge is currently considering his motion pre-trial after all the evidence and testimony was presented in the pre-trial hearing.

 

[MH2007]

it's right there at the bottom.

What? The bottom part is

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

I'm not sure if I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say but I don't see anything there about a reasonable doubt burden being put into effect as part of SYG.

I wasn't aware that the reasonable doubt burden was actually an included part of it. If you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it, not sure if I'm not interpreting the statute correctly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida

 

[micrometers]

What? The bottom part is

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

I'm not sure if I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say but I don't see anything there about a reasonable doubt burden being put into effect as part of SYG.

can you read?


776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force

just copy/past ctrl f

 

[lotus503]

How is that obvious?

How is it even proven yet?

Before he was charged, some claimed the lack of charges proved no evidence against him and proved his innocence.

Many of you disagreed

Now that he is charged, we have some of you essentially flip-flopping: Claiming that charges prove evidence against and prove his guilt.

At this point we have two prosecutors who looking at the evidence, possibly the exact same evidence, and reaching the opposite conclusion. I think to now to claim anything is clear-cut or obvious is foolhardy and unsupportable.

We may find it a gray area type thing requiring judgement, or we may find one prosecutor looks incompetent in some fashion.

My point being, we just don't know at this time.

Edit: Another point is that today's development, the filing of charges, has done little to advance our knowledge of the facts necessary to determine if Z is guilty of a crime. We need the evidence for that and we've got nothing new.

Fern

I agree with this but take exception to one point.

When he was not charged it was assumed by some zimmerman supporters it meant they did not have sufficient evidence to charge him or lacked evidence supporting beyond a reasonable doubt.

They stated all the evidence supported Zimmermans account and lack of charges was proof of this.

We know now the SA thinks they have that proof, Which means they have evidence we dont know about or was misinterpreted.

In any event the state does not buy it was self defense based on their exmination of ALL the evidence.

 

[MH2007]

can you read?


776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force

just copy/past ctrl f

I can read just fine, there's nothing there about the reasonable doubt burden being introduced with SYG

as I"ve said many times, they were passed with each other at the same time.

when people say "SYG" they do mean this statute which makes it difficult to arrest.

 

[Geosurface]

 

[micrometers]

looks like me

yeah, he's lost a lot of weight now hasn't he?

 

[Geosurface]

looks like me

pic?

since I had the audacity to ask you btw, so I can see if I agree that you look like Z, in the interest of fairness... this is me:

 

[lotus503]

You have a point.

However, I'm not sure that the prior DA had definitively decided that no charges would be filed.

IIRC, the investigation was still ongoing when the new DA took over. If so, I don't think a definitive decision had been reached.

And again, bringing in the FBI with all their resources and expertise may have led to new/additional evidence resulting in the murder charge.

I think it quite likely that could have been merely political pressure that resulted in the charges. However, before I condemn the Spec Pros for that I'll wait to see what evidence they bring forth.

But if it does turn out that it's just political pressure from 'mob', I'll be very displeased. (Can't find the right word to adequately express how opposed I am to subjecting someone to a trial merely because it's the 'popular' thing to do.).

Fern

Political pressure is just an excuse Zimmerman supporters use to justify that they were wrong. Is there pressure, sure, was it a factor in charges the SA specificlly said it was not.

No matter how much you all wish it was as cut and dry self defense, the state feels otherwise and they are the ones with all the evidence.

 

[xj0hnx]

You ever been in a fight? This is pretty much how it always goes, a person in a dominating mount position isn't going to stand up unless they're done fighting. There's absolutely no reason to switch your tactic when you are in a position of total power. And if the reports of Zimmerman screaming like a little girl while he was mounted are true. Which I believe they are, then no 100% if Trayvon got up it wasn't so he could kick him. Giving up dominate position in a fight the stupidest thing you can do.

LOL, yea, lots of them, that's why I laughed at your post.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Well guys we avoided the April 2012 riots... of intensity level 80. In exchange we'll get the 2013 riots when he gets off, at intensity level 100.

Based on how you've been wrong on just about everything in this thread. I predict another false prediction.

 

[Geosurface]

Based on how you've been wrong on just about everything in this thread. I predict another false prediction.

I sincerely hope you are right, and I am wrong on that point!

 

[Capt Caveman]

I suspect this is more than likely the case. I can't wait to see all the evidence in this case, which SPD and the states attorneys kept under wraps quite well.

I'm also glad to see that she said that the SPD had done their job and was still in the process of investigating when her team took over.

Yet, Chief Lee stated that his department had performed a 'fair and thorough investigation'. So, was Chief Lee lying and they were still investigating or is Corey just being nice?

Based on Corey's decision, the SPD and DA did not perform a fair and thorough investigation. But we already knew that.

 

[Veramocor]

You ever been in a fight? This is pretty much how it always goes, a person in a dominating mount position isn't going to stand up unless they're done fighting. There's absolutely no reason to switch your tactic when you are in a position of total power. And if the reports of Zimmerman screaming like a little girl while he was mounted are true. Which I believe they are, then no 100% if Trayvon got up it wasn't so he could kick him. Giving up dominate position in a fight the stupidest thing you can do.

Some people prefer fighting from the bottom position. for example royce gracey.

 

[Geosurface]

Based on Corey's decision, the SPD and DA did not perform a fair and thorough investigation. But we already knew that.

Not necessarily.

It's entirely possible that their investigation was fair, thorough and complete. And that the decision (or leaning toward the decision) to not charge Zimmerman was completely the right thing to do both ethically and legally.

In that case the only reason for doing it now is to bow to political, media, and public pressure. I think that's actually a fairly believable scenario.

 

[spidey07]

I haven't read the thread since before the announcement.

If there is evidence of a bad shoot then I'll stand behind the evidence and wish to nail him to the wall.

That's all I want. The evidence and the truth. Let it go to trial if that I'd what it takes. Let the evidence be known. Looks like it will some time before that will be presented.
A bad shoot is a bad shoot. A good shoot is a good shoot.