Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[CitizenKain]

How in the hell do you gather all of that from that picture????

I have no f'ing clue what happened and have not pretended to but exactly what does that picture show that gives you any insight on who started the fight?

Head wounds bleed like crazy, if his head was "pounded on concrete" then you get more then a scratch. Also why didn't he go to the hospital? He'd be dizzy and uncoordinated, likely from a concussion. Instead, he's walking around fine and isn't covered in blood. If he was being both beaten in the head, his head bounced on concrete and is somehow screaming at the same time but still manages to shoot someone, then the MMA community is missing a legend.

The other comment is for people who are screaming that Martin started the fight, yet there is no actual proof that he did. There is only what Zimmerman said what happened, and as someone who just shot someone is trying to cover his ass as best he can. He say whatever he wants, and for some reason people take him at his word.

 

[Sephire]

Man, he's gonna walk AND he is going to be a rich man. Lawyers will be sending him business cards left and right.

 

[QueBert]

A) absent proof to the contrary, Zimmerman's word should be taken as the gospel truth. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Our founding fathers choose to make the government prove guilt instead of a person prove their innocence for a very good reason - it is very difficult to prove something did not happen.

B) TM could "stand his ground" with any weapon. A stick, a knife, his fists, even a can of tea and a bag of skittles. The weapon is irrelevant. The important part is reasonable fear.


What happened that made TM reasonably fear for his life? And remember ccw is legal in Fla, so GZ being armed is not enough. He would have to brandish his weapon.

Do you have any evidence that TM reasonably feared for his life? Anything at all? Because the evidence we have seen and the testimony we have heard so far aren't consistent with a man scared for his life.

A contact wound in the chest is generally considered consistent with self defense.

When a strange person is follow you, it would make sense to be worried about why they're following you. It's not like Trayvon had did something wrong and thought "shit he's following me because he knows what I did" it was probably "shit, why is this dude following me?" People on here are saying "oh T was bigger so it's impossible that he was scared" in a fight size doesn't always mean shit. And if he was as paranoid as Zimmerman apparently is, he might have assumed the worst. I mean Zimmerman assumed the worst about him right? The 911 call to me with his tone and cussing and saying "they always get away" shows frustration. When a person's frustrated they're more likely to act out. And I can only imagine he understands Florida's gun laws as well as Spidey. So he knew he could always resort to shooting dude if he had to. I'm not debating his claim he thought he was defending himself. But the 911 call to me is an indication that in his mind he was fine with a confrontation that night if things lead to that. And nothing in trayvon's past leads me to think he's a violent person.

So no, I'm not going to simply believe the word of a dude who has a history of anger problems and was angry on the phone with the 911 operator. Especially when life in prison's on the line. Anyone who'll pull a gun that quick in a situation they started wouldn't last a month in prison. the SYG law can quickly turn into the CYA (cover your ass) law. I don't think he exited his SUV with the intention to shoot, but I do believe he's the one who started the fight. Sure there's no proof of this either, but it's every bit as likely as Trayvon starting it.

 

[Geosurface]

Rodney King weighs in on Trayvon:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/04/21/piers-bts-rodney-king-trayvon-martin.cnn

 

[DominionSeraph]

A) absent proof to the contrary, Zimmerman's word should be taken as the gospel truth. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Our founding fathers choose to make the government prove guilt instead of a person prove their innocence for a very good reason - it is very difficult to prove something did not happen.

He is guilty of firing the shot, and there is no proof to the contrary. That is the action that "innocent until proved guilty" covers. It is not, "Innocent by dint of presumed guilt of the victim."

If I walk up to spidey, shoot him in the head, and claim that he was in the act of gay-raping a tiny invisible man in his pants and I was merely acting to stop the felonious assault, do I get to walk because there is no proof that he wasn't gay-raping a tiny invisible man?

A contact wound in the chest is generally considered consistent with self defense.

It is also consistent with murder.

 

[thepd7]

He is guilty of firing the shot, and there is no proof to the contrary. That is the action that "innocent until proved guilty" covers. It is not, "Innocent by dint of presumed guilt of the victim."

If I walk up to spidey, shoot him in the head, and claim that he was in the act of gay-raping a tiny invisible man in his pants and I was merely acting to stop the felonious assault, do I get to walk because there is no proof that he wasn't gay-raping a tiny invisible man?



It is also consistent with murder.

Firing the shot in itself is not a crime under Florida law.

Your gay-rape argument shows just how ludicrous you are being (and apparently, focused on gay-rape and spidey).


No, 3-4 shots at medium range would be much more consistent with murder. If your intent (I use that word intentionally because murder requires intent) was to murder someone why the hell would you give them a chance to fight you by being within reach?

 

[DominionSeraph]

Ooh, I change my mind: I actually LIKE this law! I just figured out that you can use it to make any recently deceased person legally guilty of any felony you want, with you being the hero. Just claim that you magically killed them in Florida by means of <insert cause of death here> because they were engaged in said felony. By Florida law you are immune from all criminal and civil prosecution and they are assumed guilty of the felony you "killed" them for.

So... Andrew Breitbart was legally killed by heart attack for raping a little boy. My saying it is all that is needed to make it true under Florida law.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Firing the shot in itself is not a crime under Florida law.

Discharging a firearm in public and killing someone are both crimes under Florida law absent an excuse.

790.15 Discharging firearm in public.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) or subsection (3), any person who knowingly discharges a firearm in any public place or on the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street or whosoever knowingly discharges any firearm over the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street or over any occupied premises is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. This section does not apply to a person lawfully defending life or property or performing official duties requiring the discharge of a firearm or to a person discharging a firearm on public roads or properties expressly approved for hunting by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or Division of Forestry.

(2) Any occupant of any vehicle who knowingly and willfully discharges any firearm from the vehicle within 1,000 feet of any person commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) Any driver or owner of any vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, who knowingly directs any other person to discharge any firearm from the vehicle commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


782.04&#8195;Murder.&#8212;
(1)(a)&#8195;The unlawful killing of a human being:
1.&#8195;When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2.&#8195;When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a.&#8195;Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b.&#8195;Arson,
c.&#8195;Sexual battery,
d.&#8195;Robbery,
e.&#8195;Burglary,
f.&#8195;Kidnapping,
g.&#8195;Escape,
h.&#8195;Aggravated child abuse,
i.&#8195;Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j.&#8195;Aircraft piracy,
k.&#8195;Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l.&#8195;Carjacking,
m.&#8195;Home-invasion robbery,
n.&#8195;Aggravated stalking,
o.&#8195;Murder of another human being,
p.&#8195;Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q.&#8195;Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3.&#8195;Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
(b)&#8195;In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.
(2)&#8195;The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3)&#8195;When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a)&#8195;Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b)&#8195;Arson,
(c)&#8195;Sexual battery,
(d)&#8195;Robbery,
(e)&#8195;Burglary,
(f)&#8195;Kidnapping,
(g)&#8195;Escape,
(h)&#8195;Aggravated child abuse,
(i)&#8195;Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j)&#8195;Aircraft piracy,
(k)&#8195;Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l)&#8195;Carjacking,
(m)&#8195;Home-invasion robbery,
(n)&#8195;Aggravated stalking,
(o)&#8195;Murder of another human being,
(p)&#8195;Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(q)&#8195;Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4)&#8195;The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:
(a)&#8195;Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b)&#8195;Arson,
(c)&#8195;Sexual battery,
(d)&#8195;Robbery,
(e)&#8195;Burglary,
(f)&#8195;Kidnapping,
(g)&#8195;Escape,
(h)&#8195;Aggravated child abuse,
(i)&#8195;Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j)&#8195;Aircraft piracy,
(k)&#8195;Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l)&#8195;Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
(m)&#8195;Carjacking,
(n)&#8195;Home-invasion robbery,
(o)&#8195;Aggravated stalking,
(p)&#8195;Murder of another human being,
(q)&#8195;Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(r)&#8195;Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
is murder in the third degree and constitutes a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(5)&#8195;As used in this section, the term &#8220;terrorism&#8221; means an activity that:
(a)1.&#8195;Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or
2.&#8195;Involves a violation of s. 815.06; and
(b)&#8195;Is intended to:
1.&#8195;Intimidate, injure, or coerce a civilian population;
2.&#8195;Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
3.&#8195;Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.

 

[Geosurface]

DominionSeraph as amusing as your comparison may be... I think you know it doesn't fit very well.

You have to remember that in this case we have some key things supporting one version of this:

Zimmerman's own testimony, given immediately upon police arrival (police he involved)

911 call which shows Zimmerman probably had stopped any pursuit, along with Trayvon's gf's account that Trayvon spoke to Zimmerman first

Injuries on Zimmerman consistent with his story, shown in new image as well as police station video

Funeral director's statement that Trayvon had no injuries, apart from the bullet wound itself

Sanford PD's feeling that Zimmerman's account matched evidence, and that his account was internally consistent, and consistent with witnesses

Investigator's admission of lack of evidence to contradict Zimmerman, or show that he had started the conflict

John's eyewitness testimony that Z was calling for help and T was beating him

Powder burns on Trayvon's hoodie showing the shot was at very close range

Tracy Martin's original admission that it was not his son's voice screaming, before attorneys coached him


If you shot spidey and claimed he was raping an invisible leprechaun I'm guessing you're admitting there would be nothing but your word to substantiate that right? But you can see here we have a very different case, with lots of things to substantiate Zimmerman's version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlte_VAXENQ (good vid from Anderson Cooper skewering prosecution case)

 

[DominionSeraph]

You have to remember that in this case we have some key things supporting one version of this:

Trayvon being shot rather supports that he was assaulted with a deadly weapon. So basically all you're arguing is that the winner of any fight is justified to have gone to the length taken to win, and so Trayvon's only "crime" was in not having sufficient opportunity to kill Zimmerman after he took out his gun, which would have made this his self-defense against Zimmerman's assault.
If Zimmerman would have been assumed guilty of a crime then, why isn't he guilty of a crime now?

 

[Geosurface]

Trayvon being shot rather supports that he was assaulted with a deadly weapon. So basically all you're arguing is that the winner of any fight is justified to have gone to the length taken to win, and so Trayvon's only "crime" was in not having sufficient opportunity to kill Zimmerman after he took out his gun, which would have made this his self-defense against Zimmerman's assault.
If Zimmerman would have been assumed guilty of a crime then, why isn't he guilty of a crime now?

Well actually if Trayvon had ended up gaining control of Zimmerman's gun and killing Zimmerman with it I think the cops would've been entirely justified in viewing him more suspiciously no matter what he himself said went down once they arrived, than they did Zimmerman (and keep in mind, they did view Zimmerman suspiciously and tried to find any hole in his story they could)

Why do I say this?
-Zimmerman had called the police, and involved them in the situation
-Zimmerman had previously helped the police catch a burglar in the area
-Trayvon's history of burglary, vandalism, drug use, delinquency and problems at school (which were why his mom sent him up there to begin with) as well as the bus driver assault if it happened, all would've been uncovered by the police as they looked into who this kid was.
-John would've still told police that he'd seen Zimmerman on his back, as Trayvon beat him, screaming for help before Trayvon shot and killed Zimmerman
-Trayvon would've been unscathed and Zimmerman would've still had the bloody head, broken nose, etc

So it would've been a very different situation indeed.

I don't feel like you're using a lot of logic to be honest with you.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Well actually if Trayvon had ended up gaining control of Zimmerman's gun and killing Zimmerman with it I think the cops would've been entirely justified in viewing him more suspiciously no matter what he himself said went down once they arrived, than they did Zimmerman (and keep in mind, they did view Zimmerman suspiciously and tried to find any hole in his story they could)

Why do I say this?
-Zimmerman had called the police, and involved them in the situation
-Zimmerman had previously helped the police catch a burglar in the area
-Trayvon's history of burglary, vandalism, drug use, delinquency and problems at school (which were why his mom sent him up there to begin with) as well as the bus driver assault if it happened, all would've been uncovered by the police as they looked into who this kid was.
-John would've still told police that he'd seen Zimmerman on his back, as Trayvon beat him, screaming for help before Trayvon shot and killed Zimmerman
-Trayvon would've been unscathed and Zimmerman would've still had the bloody head, broken nose, etc

Except we're facing the evidence that Zimmerman left his car and followed Trayvon. Ziimmerman's injuries would only be evidence that Trayvon stood his ground against Zimmerman's assault, and Zimmerman's gun would be evidence that Trayvon stood his ground against Zimmerman's assault with a deadly weapon.
We have ample evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor, engaged in vigilante justice against the "crime" of, "walking while black."
If Treyvon had killed Zimmerman it reverses everything -- except for the fact that he's black and so that's a joke because everyone knows he'd really be presumed guilty of murder

 

[Geosurface]

So you really think a man who mentored a black teen through a sponsor program, then when the money for that program ran out continued to do so at his own expense... a man who offered a place to stay in his home for Anthony Woodson, a black man, until he got back on his feet, and a man who rallied the NAACP, black community of Sanford, and others in pursuit of accountability for a SPD police officer's son who had assaulted a homeless black man is the sort of man who doles out vigilante justice for the crime of "walking while black" ?

That makes sense in your mind?

 

[DominionSeraph]

So you really think a man who mentored a black teen through a sponsor program, then when the money for that program ran out continued to do so at his own expense... a man who offered a place to stay in his home for Anthony Woodson, a black man, until he got back on his feet, and a man who rallied the NAACP, black community of Sanford, and others in pursuit of accountability for a SPD police officer's son who had assaulted a homeless black man is the sort of man who doles out vigilante justice for the crime of "walking while black" ?

Nothing there says he's not capable of racism. You do know that there are more kinds than just right-wing extremism, right?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Nothing there says he's not capable of racism. You do know that there are more kinds than just right-wing extremism, right?

Clearly he was a sleeper cell racist, and skittles and tea are what awoke the sleeping monster racist hate monger.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Where Caucasian people will riot, tear their city to shit and get violent over something like their Hockey or Football team winning. So I guess black people riot out of frustration, where white people riot out of joy? Hummm....

And way to bring up 1 incident to prove how they'll act here, even though in similar cases, like Sean Bell & Tyisha Miller there wasn't rioting when the police that clearly murdered them all got off with no jail time. People just like you were ensuring there would be massive rioting by the black people if there wasn't justice in the Sean Bell case.

FYI: there was no rioting, and no justice there.

Que how does this case affect your deep seated racism?


Does the fact that zimmerman only had to put up $15k to get out of jail bother you?

You do know it means that they probably don't have anything to put on him, and that the judge is going to straighten this whole lynching mess out, right?



Would you say you are more racist or less racist after being wrong through this entire situation? You should use this as a lesson for next time - to wait for the details until responding to sharpton's bat signal.

 

[a777pilot]

Clearly he was a sleeper cell racist, and skittles and tea are what awoke the sleeping monster racist hate monger.

Most blacks in America are racists.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Except we're facing the evidence that Zimmerman left his car and followed Trayvon. Ziimmerman's injuries would only be evidence that Trayvon stood his ground against Zimmerman's assault, and Zimmerman's gun would be evidence that Trayvon stood his ground against Zimmerman's assault with a deadly weapon.
We have ample evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor, engaged in vigilante justice against the "crime" of, "walking while black."
If Treyvon had killed Zimmerman it reverses everything -- except for the fact that he's black and so that's a joke because everyone knows he'd really be presumed guilty of murder

You are missing an extremely pointed fact which has been discussed ad nauseum already.

Zimmerman got out of his car, and was told not to pursue trayvon.

ZIMMERMAN THEN STOPPED FOLLOWING TRAYVON.

At this point, the situation is OVER. Trayvon no longer has any 'stand your ground' rights (which btw, he had no reason to fear for his life so it wouldn't have been justified anyway) and is under no thread. We know that trayvon now hid for 3-4 minutes where he could've called 911, screamed for help, or continue running home but he does not do that.


We know from audio recordings that at this point zimmerman is beating on doors, trying to notify neighbors that a potential thug is running behind their houses.

AFTER THAT trayvon 'jumps' zimmerman.



In no way, shape, or form did trayvon have any 'stand your ground' or 'self defense' rights. Even if zimmerman flat out ATTACKED trayvon in that initial confrontation, it was over with, and trayvon hid to wait for zimmerman before attacking him.

 

[MegaVA]

Most blacks in America are racists.

The irony of this statement appears to be lost on you.

 

[TerryMathews]

When a strange person is follow you, it would make sense to be worried about why they're following you. It's not like Trayvon had did something wrong and thought "shit he's following me because he knows what I did" it was probably "shit, why is this dude following me?" People on here are saying "oh T was bigger so it's impossible that he was scared" in a fight size doesn't always mean shit. And if he was as paranoid as Zimmerman apparently is, he might have assumed the worst. I mean Zimmerman assumed the worst about him right? The 911 call to me with his tone and cussing and saying "they always get away" shows frustration. When a person's frustrated they're more likely to act out. And I can only imagine he understands Florida's gun laws as well as Spidey. So he knew he could always resort to shooting dude if he had to. I'm not debating his claim he thought he was defending himself. But the 911 call to me is an indication that in his mind he was fine with a confrontation that night if things lead to that. And nothing in trayvon's past leads me to think he's a violent person.

So no, I'm not going to simply believe the word of a dude who has a history of anger problems and was angry on the phone with the 911 operator. Especially when life in prison's on the line. Anyone who'll pull a gun that quick in a situation they started wouldn't last a month in prison. the SYG law can quickly turn into the CYA (cover your ass) law. I don't think he exited his SUV with the intention to shoot, but I do believe he's the one who started the fight. Sure there's no proof of this either, but it's every bit as likely as Trayvon starting it.

You're allowed to believe whatever you want. The law says, however, that GZ must be considered innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Again, for those of you who have trouble parsing: the onus is on the prosecution to prove that GZ was not defending himself that night. GZ does NOT have to prove himself innocent. The state MUST produce evidence or testimony contradicting GZs story.

If you're not happy with that, I suggest you move to the UK where it's illegal to find a shotgun in your yard and turn it in to the police.

I'll keep my Freedom, thank you very much.

 

[MegaVA]

Que how does this case affect your deep seated racism?


Does the fact that zimmerman only had to put up $15k to get out of jail bother you?

You do know it means that they probably don't have anything to put on him, and that the judge is going to straighten this whole lynching mess out, right?



Would you say you are more racist or less racist after being wrong through this entire situation? You should use this as a lesson for next time - to wait for the details until responding to sharpton's bat signal.

I can name a handful of guys right now that got out on less bail than Z and ultimately wound up serving football jersey numbers in jail. So far he looks like he's in good shape in Florida.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Most blacks in America are racists.

Most animals, human or not, are racist. However, it's the ones who go around holding out the 'racist label', full of hate, merely hunting for someone to place it on who TRULY hold back race relations in our country.

It's these people who teach their children how to hate everyone around them, how to feel comfortable blaming the 'racists' for all of their bad decisions and bad things in life, it's these people who are perpetuating racism in this country.


Worst of all, it's these people who make truly racist situations get ignored.

It's the 'boy who cried wolf' mentality... If you're going to embellish a situation, make some kid out to be a little young child, make the shooter out to be a raging racist white guy, essentially divide the entire country over this.. Well, only expect us to listen once or maybe twice.



Like I said earlier in the thread, the REAL victim in this case is not trayvon, it's not zimmerman. It's the young black kid, who is violently murdered for racist reasons, whose case will be pushed out of the limelight because of all the 'fake emotion' this case has stirred up.

 

[OCNewbie]

Some expert opinions on the extremes of SP Corey's decisions to which she chooses to prosecute. Suggests that her 2nd degree murder charge against Zimmerman might be another instance of her practice of overcharging. Showcases her decision to charge a 12 year-old boy as an adult, and how the person that held her position before her considers that decision a "travesty".

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/19/overcharging-george-zimmerman/

 

[Geosurface]

Some expert opinions on the extremes of SP Corey's decisions to which she chooses to prosecute. Suggests that her 2nd degree murder charge against Zimmerman might be another instance of her practice of overcharging. Showcases her decision to charge a 12 year-old boy as an adult, and how the person that held her position before her considers that decision a "travesty".

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/19/overcharging-george-zimmerman/

Watching this now. This woman... is absurd. Hopefully one of the very few positive things to come from this is her out of a job, let's hope.

 

[a777pilot]

The irony of this statement appears to be lost on you.

There is no irony. It was a statement of fact.