Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[airdata]

So you're still holding onto him following him is valid reason for an attack that breaks his nose and is continuous for more than a minute while a man screams for help? This attack, due to being followed, is so justified that Z loses all claims to defending himself? Really, that's your argument? Are you British? I know you sure as hell aren't a Texan...

He very well could have been justified in the assault. You guys keep talking about justification for killing trayvon as being Zimmerman's fear for his safety.

Does Trayvon not get the same right? He very well could have feared for his safety with a stranger following him around at night. Obviously it wasn't the police. So who was it? What could they possibly want with him that they'd follow after him in the black of night?

And in that case, who's fear for their safety trumps the other? The guy who is first to fear for their safety? or the guy who made the other person fear for their safety who then got their ass kicked and then feared for their safety despite instigating an altercation w\ the other person in the first place?

 

[corwin]

He very well could have been justified in the assault. You guys keep talking about justification for killing trayvon as being Zimmerman's fear for his safety.

Does Trayvon not get the same right? He very well could have feared for his safety with a stranger following him around at night. Obviously it wasn't the police. So who was it? What could they possibly want with him that they'd follow after him in the black of night?

And in that case, who's fear for their safety trumps the other? The guy who is first to fear for their safety? or the guy who made the other person fear for their safety who then got their ass kicked and then feared for their safety despite instigating an altercation w\ the other person in the first place?

No he sure as hell doesn't get the same rights, are you a fucking idiot? That's a serious question, are you saying someone following you is a good enough reason to beat them to a pulp on the ground? Are you equating following someone to being beaten on the ground? Are you a fucking idiot?

And just to be clear here, we're not talking about "fear of safety", we're talking a reasonable fear for your life, someone following you isn't a reasonable fear for your life, someone who breaks your nose and then beats on you continuously makes for a reasonable fear for your life...

 

[OCNewbie]

He chose to go after Trayvon instead and then wound up killing him.

The question is, WHY did he end up killing TM? What part did TM play in this happening? You seem to be ignoring the fact that TM's actions directly lead to GZ pulling the trigger.

So let's compare arguments here:

1.) Someone makes an honest mistake, and incorrectly fingers someone as a burglar, or being "up to no good".

An unfortunate happening, but nothing illegal, and nothing even really beyond comprehension for most people.

2.) Physically assaulting someone for following you, by punching them so hard you break their nose, and knock them to the ground. Then proceeding to get on top of them, slam their head into the concrete, and, despite them repeatedly screaming for help, straddling them and repeatedly beating them for over a minute.

So, yes, #1 happened first, but #1 does not lead to someone getting killed; #2 most definitely can lead to someone getting killed, and did in this case, and IMO, justifiably so. There should be zero tolerance for physically assaulting someone, especially to the extent, and duration TM did, without a clear (evidence-supported), rational reason to do so.

 

[OCNewbie]

He very well could have been justified in the assault. You guys keep talking about justification for killing trayvon as being Zimmerman's fear for his safety.

Does Trayvon not get the same right? He very well could have feared for his safety with a stranger following him around at night. Obviously it wasn't the police. So who was it? What could they possibly want with him that they'd follow after him in the black of night?

And in that case, who's fear for their safety trumps the other? The guy who is first to fear for their safety? or the guy who made the other person fear for their safety who then got their ass kicked and then feared for their safety despite instigating an altercation w\ the other person in the first place?

Whether TM was afraid or not, his reaction was overboard, and is not justifiable by any evidence that anybody is aware of. You can't become physical with someone unless they do so first, or you have a very compelling reason to believe it's imminent. There is no evidence to suggest GZ ever became physical with TM, and even the purely speculative "GZ maybe grabbed TM's arm", anything more than a single strike to GZ's face, knocking him down, thereby giving TM an opportunity to get away from this fear, is totally unjustifiable. What options was TM giving GZ to escape what he was fearing? How do you escape someone when they're sitting on top of you, punching you repeatedly while you scream for help?

 

[Jaskalas]

If a jury hears weeks of inconsistent stories from Zimmerman, they aren't going to believe any of his statements...

Are they supposed to deem him guilty because he's an inconsistent witness?

That requires ignoring the evidence.

 

[TmBlackFlag]

He very well could have been justified in the assault. You guys keep talking about justification for killing trayvon as being Zimmerman's fear for his safety.

Does Trayvon not get the same right? He very well could have feared for his safety with a stranger following him around at night. Obviously it wasn't the police. So who was it? What could they possibly want with him that they'd follow after him in the black of night?

And in that case, who's fear for their safety trumps the other? The guy who is first to fear for their safety? or the guy who made the other person fear for their safety who then got their ass kicked and then feared for their safety despite instigating an altercation w\ the other person in the first place?

Fear of someone following you does not give you the right to attack and ambush them. Your argument is that since Trayvon had fear first that he got a free pass to assault GZ. All he had to do was ask why he was being followed or go home. You don't just assume this person is out to murder you.

 

[Jaskalas]

He very well could have been justified in the assault.

Of course it's possible. Now prove it.

And in that case, who's fear for their safety trumps the other?

The man on the ground unable to flee with the other constraining him.

Who, btw, is the ONLY one with injuries!!!!!

 

[TechBoyJK]

You think Trayvon would have attacked Zimmerman if Zimmerman hadn't been following him around previously? Don't think so. Therefore my statement is absolutely correct.

Of course, If Zimmerman had remained in his car and waited on police, none of that would have happened.

You're a fool.

 

[Geosurface]

Walking into a really rough part of town in all my whiteness might be universally acknowledged as a bad call but if I did so it would not mean I was signing away my rights to defend myself if attacked there.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?km5nap

 

[corwin]

I'm starting to think air was just trolling with his last half dozen or so posts...I really can't see how he could have possibly been serious...could he?

 

[spidey07]

I'm starting to think air was just trolling with his last half dozen or so posts...I really can't see how he could have possibly been serious...could he?

On some other forums you have a very small minority using the exact same talking points and reasoning. I don't doubt he's serious.

 

[TmBlackFlag]

I side with the defense based on current evidence and testimonies, but does anyone else feel that GZ could've been in a much better position had he not said that TM told him "You're going to die tonight" when he was on top of him?

I have a REAL hard time believing that TM would say something like that. Not only is it ridiculous, but GZ had nothing to gain by mentioning it.

 

[Infohawk]

I side with the defense based on current evidence and testimonies, but does anyone else feel that GZ could've been in a much better position had he not said that TM told him "You're going to die tonight" when he was on top of him?

I have a REAL hard time believing that TM would say something like that. Not only is it ridiculous, but GZ had nothing to gain by mentioning it.

Absolutely. Doesn't sound like a teenage threat.

It's pretty clear Zimmerman is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He may, like a huge percentage of the population, lie or exaggerate when he shouldn't. At the end of the day though the basic undisputed facts and the physical evidence support his story.

 

[corwin]

I side with the defense based on current evidence and testimonies, but does anyone else feel that GZ could've been in a much better position had he not said that TM told him "You're going to die tonight" when he was on top of him?

I have a REAL hard time believing that TM would say something like that. Not only is it ridiculous, but GZ had nothing to gain by mentioning it.

I agree it sounds absurd...if true maybe a product of watching too many bad gangster movies with shitty dialog, or hell maybe it was song lyrics and he was just singing to Z

The fact that he would have nothing to gain by saying it would make it seem more authentic to me, even if it's still absurd to imagine someone actually saying it outside of a movie or crappy song...or it was an unneeded embellishment he threw in, doesn't change the physical facts that back up everything else he said with nothing to contradict it at all, not even little liar Deedee.

 

[Geosurface]

Wouldn't it be an interesting situation to be in where TM actually really had said it and the "you got it, you got it" thing and therefore GZ made his account sound less believable by accurately conveying what happened?

I like NPR but I was disappointed a few min ago when in their story on this new info they ended with "Zimmerman claims Martin's last words were 'you got me'" and you could pick up on a little tone of "yea right, what a liar..." but they reported it incorrectly.

For one thing, they omitted the fact that GZ says it might've been "you got it, you got it" which I can completely totally believe someone would repeat in the last moments of life, processing what is happening, in regards to a struggle for the gun and also could mean "you got it, i'll stop beating you"

they also failed to mention that in one of his other statements GZ said that cursing amidst groaning while GZ was pinning him down were TM's last words.

Oh and I actually don't find it that hard to believe that a 17 year old hoodlum who fancies himself a hard ass gangsta would say some shit straight out of a rap song while he's feeling very bad ass, and possibly fucked up on Robitussin lean.

 

[Geosurface]

I have to say from the sound of some of these interviews that I think Chris Serino was the very first victim of the Martin family/Crump lies about Trayvon and who he was.

"he wasn't a punk" (sorry Chris, he was)
"this kid was going into aeronautics and this kid had a future" (sorry Chris, he was on his third suspension and tweeted something indicating he fully expected to be EXPELLED soon, and I'm sure he wanted to be a fireman and astronaut too)

Serino went over and talked to Tracy Martin, felt for him, bought the bullshit, and it colored his view of what happened.

I don't really give a fuck how nice of a kid you supposedly are (according to your parents, consider the source) when you viciously assault someone and don't stop no matter how loudly or how much they scream for mercy... my sympathy reserves and understanding of your actions dry up faster than you can imagine.

 

[Infohawk]

Wouldn't it be an interesting situation to be in where TM actually really had said it and the "you got it, you got it" thing and therefore GZ made his account sound less believable by accurately conveying what happened?

...

Oh and I actually don't find it that hard to believe that a 17 year old hoodlum who fancies himself a hard ass gangsta would say some shit straight out of a rap song while he's feeling very bad ass, and possibly fucked up on Robitussin lean.

Depends what statements you're talking about. I actually think the "you got me" sounds plausible. I think people might say some weird stuff when they take a gun shot at close range.

"You're going to die tonight" doesn't sound like it's out of a rap song. And if we're inclined to believe Trayvon embraced inner-city black culture, it seems like he would have said something different.

 

[NeoV]

Xjohn - sorry to hear you were shot - but I'm guessing that's very different from being on the other end of the trigger.

"Oh and I actually don't find it that hard to believe that a 17 year old hoodlum who fancies himself a hard ass gangsta would say some shit straight out of a rap song while he's feeling very bad ass, and possibly fucked up on Robitussin lean."

You've lost it again Geo - but keep demonizing TM if that makes you feel better.

Zimmerman lied to his attorney - after basically blowing off his first attorney.

Zimmerman sat there while his wife lied to a judge.

Zimmerman either lied or pulled a Roger Clemens 'mis-remembered' in his various versions of what took place that night. His re-enactment, his written statement the night of the shooting, and the call to the non-emergency phone number - don't tell the same story.

Is it really that big of a stretch to think he lied to the police about what happened?

I am literally in shock that you guys are all ok with the numerous inconsistencies in his versions of what took place that night. You'll take one twitter line, something along the lines of 'why you throw down on a bus driver' - and to you, it's gospel that TM attacked a bus driver - despite zero other evidence about it - but Z's inconsistencies and lies are are perfectly explainable? There is one account, with literally zero details, about what may or may not have been found in one of TM's school backpacks - but to you guys - he's a master criminal - but Z's lies to a judges and lawyers are ok because he shot someone?

Also - all of you people that have repeated - ad naseum - that TM viciously assaulted Z, and beat him for several minutes - according to Zimmerman himself - Martin punched him - exactly once. He then got on top of Zimmerman, and tried to keep Zimmerman from screaming. When Zimmerman tried to sit up - TM pushed him back onto the ground. At some point during these events, Z's head hit the sidewalk. AT NO POINT DURING ANY OF THIS DID ZIMMERMAN SAY HE FEARED FOR HIS LIFE. It wasn't until Z says his gun was potentially exposed, and he thought TM started to reach for the gun, that he then says he feared for his life.

So here is a new question. You are carrying a gun. You follow someone you deem suspicious. They confront you. A physical altercation ensues. At some point during the altercation - which consists of no life-threatening injuries, the fact that you are carrying a gun becomes apparent.

Is it now ok to shoot the person you are fighting with because they may try to take your gun from you?

Clearly that's a simplistic scenario - but how does that make any sense?

 

[Geosurface]

"You're going to die tonight" doesn't sound like it's out of a rap song. And if we're inclined to believe Trayvon embraced inner-city black culture, it seems like he would have said something different.

[C-Murder](whom Trayvon idolized)
awesome dude awesome dude I'ma rida
Ride with G's
And ship keys over seas by the three's
Keep an eye on my enemies
Snoop and Silkk
In da back of the Lac
With that AK
In da blue tint, with a infer-red
Mother fucker gonna die tonight
That's why I smoke weed, get high tonight
Cuz I'ma No Limit soldier
With TRU datted in blood
I went to jail for years, for movin, burnin da drugs
Murda murda, kill kill
If you put me in danger
I aint trippin noo
No limit niggaz no strangers
I'ma tank representer till im history
Making playa hatas into a mother fucking memory
So throw'em up if you a soldier
And Snoop Dogg pass tha mother fucking dolja
I know you mother fucking feel me
C-murder aint gonna die, till a bitch awesome dude kill me

source: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/snoopdogg/aintnutinpersonal.html

reminder: NO_LIMIT_NIGGA was Trayvon's twitter handle.

 

[Geosurface]

according to Zimmerman himself - Martin punched him - exactly once.

Incorrect. I literally just listened to one of the interviews where he refers to repeated blows to his already broken nose. "Each time he'd punch me in the nose again" (paraphrased)

nobody has really treated the bus driver thing as gospel, it's always accompanied by an acknowledgement of uncertainty when I mention it, and I've seen others use the same disclaimer.

 

[Infohawk]

source: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/snoopdogg/aintnutinpersonal.html

reminder: NO_LIMIT_NIGGA was Trayvon's twitter handle.

The rap song sounds like a rap song. It's not the same as "you're going to die tonight." Maybe Zimmerman edited out mofo or paraphrased, but if he didn't I still think it sounds weird and he should say what travyon said exactly.

 

[Geosurface]

The rap song sounds like a rap song. It's not the same as "you're going to die tonight." Maybe Zimmerman edited out mofo or paraphrased, but if he didn't I still think it sounds weird and he should say what travyon said exactly.

Zimmerman mentions the "motherfucker" part in multiple interviews released today.

 

[Tom]

The question is, WHY did he end up killing TM? What part did TM play in this happening? You seem to be ignoring the fact that TM's actions directly lead to GZ pulling the trigger.

So let's compare arguments here:

1.) Someone makes an honest mistake, and incorrectly fingers someone as a burglar, or being "up to no good".

An unfortunate happening, but nothing illegal, and nothing even really beyond comprehension for most people.

2.) Physically assaulting someone for following you, by punching them so hard you break their nose, and knock them to the ground. Then proceeding to get on top of them, slam their head into the concrete, and, despite them repeatedly screaming for help, straddling them and repeatedly beating them for over a minute.

So, yes, #1 happened first, but #1 does not lead to someone getting killed; #2 most definitely can lead to someone getting killed, and did in this case, and IMO, justifiably so. There should be zero tolerance for physically assaulting someone, especially to the extent, and duration TM did, without a clear (evidence-supported), rational reason to do so.

except we don't know that #2 happened. We do know #1 happened.

The evidence that we really know fits a scenario where Zimmerman confronts Martin, there's a struggle, and in the course of that Zimmerman shoots Martin.

That dosn't mean its impossible that Zimmerman's story is true, but what it means is its necessary to believe Zimmerman's story, which means a lot rests on his credibility.

To test this, forget every detail of what you think happened that comes from Zimmerman. Forget he claims self-defense.

If you do that, you have a person who expresses malice towards someone, pursues them, is injured in some sort of confrontation, and kills the person.

That isn't clear cut self-defense at all. To support the Zimmerman scenario you have to first of all buy his story, then pick and choose which eyewitnesses you want to believe.

For example, at least one eyewitness reported seeing one person chase another. Where is that event in Zimmerman's description ?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Incorrect. I literally just listened to one of the interviews where he refers to repeated blows to his already broken nose. "Each time he'd punch me in the nose again" (paraphrased)

nobody has really treated the bus driver thing as gospel, it's always accompanied by an acknowledgement of uncertainty when I mention it, and I've seen others use the same disclaimer.

SpatiallyAware has always treated the "assault" on the bus driver as unimpeachable truth, despite the scarcity of evidence supporting it.

It's interesting how you yourself previously said that the "you're going to die tonight" quote sounded improbable, but now you seem to think it makes perfect sense. It would appear there is literally nothing that could shake your confidence in Mr. Zimmerman at this point.

 

[Geosurface]

SpatiallyAware has always treated the "assault" on the bus driver as unimpeachable truth, despite the scarcity of evidence supporting it.

It's interesting how you yourself previously said that the "you're going to die tonight" quote sounded improbable, but now you seem to think it makes perfect sense. It would appear there is literally nothing that could shake your confidence in Mr. Zimmerman at this point.

I still agree it sounds a bit improbable but the more that has come to light about TM's character and style, I find it more believable. Not saying it doesn't still sort of strike me as a bit hard to swallow but... I think a big part of that is that the whole situation is so far outside of most peoples' experience.

And there is absolutely stuff that could come out and shake my confidence in GZ, it just hasn't happened.