Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[TmBlackFlag]

GZ's "story" is not the only thing holding a murder conviction at bay.

In fact even if GZ had become a vegetable from the assault and was completely incapable of offering any sort of account of what had happened, or had died, the police and investigators would have pieced it together as a case of self-defense.

In fact, in many ways it would be even more clear cut because a live GZ walking and breathing makes for a much better political football and object of ignorant, vengeful hatred.

Remove GZ's account from the picture entirely and just look at what the physical evidence and eye-witness testimony says:

1.) Party A was seen on top of Party B moments before the gunshot by the only really viable, close eye-witness.
2.) That eye-witness says he saw Party A either punching Party B while astride him, or holding him down with his arms. He said he was completely confident as to who was on top and who was being held down, and his feeling was that it was Party B that was screaming, though he wasn't positive.
3.) Party B had cuts and lacerations all around both the front and back of his head, as well as a broken nose. Party A's only wounds were an apparently offensive wound on one finger, and the gun shot wound. This gives us insight into which physical action the eye witness saw Party A doing to Party B, and whether he was right about who he thought was screaming. It is logical to assume that it was Party B screaming, because of the wounds. It is logical to assume Party A was beating Party B rather than merely holding him down, because of said injuries.
4.) Ballistics are consistent with Party A being on top of, and extremely close to Party B at time of gunshot. This matches eyewitness testimony, and reinforces ongoing beating and self-defense gunshot.
5.) Party B had been the first person to contact law enforcement that night, and was attempting to meet up with them. Party B had desired the presence and intervention of law enforcement that evening.

If you cut through all the horse shit, the racial narrative by Crump, the weeping parents, the pictures of Trayvon at 12 years old, or 8 years old in a peewee football uniform, or GZ's stupidly worded statements, poor memory, embellishments, lies, whatever, and just break it down to those BASIC FACTS which would be present and in many ways even more clear to an observer if GZ was catatonic, then there really can be no real doubt that this was self-defense.

Agree, can we end this thread now?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Agree, can we end this thread now?

It would be nice to end the thread until some actual activity but some people seem to deliberately forget about a pesky problem called the rule of law.

They misspell it aa rule of mob :thumbsdown:

 

[TmBlackFlag]

It would be nice to end the thread until some actual activity but some people seem to deliberately forget about a pesky problem called the rule of law.

They misspell it aa rule of mob :thumbsdown:

I agree with you. And I get why people are mad because Zimmerman is clearly a POS and probably a liar. But he has either gamed the system and there isn't enough evidence to convict, or he truly is innocent.

Either way, with the current evidence you can't put him in jail for murder. If you're gonna due that you better be damn sure it wasn't self defense.

 

[spidey07]

With the current evidence he should have never been arrested, there is zero evidence he committed a crime and all evidence actually proves he didn't.

 

[airdata]

These assholes always get away.

 

[EagleKeeper]

These assholes always get away.

When they take off running and keep going - TRUE

 

[OCNewbie]

These assholes always get away.

That statement made by GZ could be a piece of a larger puzzle. The problem is, the other necessary pieces of the puzzle you're trying to complete are missing. You suggest that GZ tried to restrain TM, but what evidence is there that happened?

I really would love to hear your version of how you think the scenario unfolded, from the point GZ and TM are face to face, and how exactly you think GZ attempted to "detain" TM, and what evidence supports this attempted detainment.

 

[EagleKeeper]

That statement made by GZ could be a piece of a larger puzzle. The problem is, the other necessary pieces of the puzzle you're trying to complete are missing. You suggest that GZ tried to restrain TM, but what evidence is there that happened?

I really would love to hear your version of how you think the scenario unfolded, from the point GZ and TM are face to face, and how exactly you think GZ attempted to "detain" TM, and what evidence supports this attempted detainment.

TM pushed GZ and walked away toward his house. GZ follows him and grabs TM arm. TM pushes GZ. GZ falls forward and TM tries to catch him, bruising his finger. Unable to catch, GZ falls face forward bang his face. TM kneels down to help GZ, rolling GZ over to check on him. Rolling GZ over caused the scratches on the back of hid head. This is where John saw them.

 

[OCNewbie]

TM pushed GZ and walked away toward his house. GZ follows him and grabs TM arm. TM pushes GZ. GZ falls forward and TM tries to catch him, bruising his finger. Unable to catch, GZ falls face forward bang his face. TM kneels down to help GZ, rolling GZ over to check on him. Rolling GZ over caused the scratches on the back of hid head. This is where John saw them.

And the ~45 seconds of screaming? Who was screaming, and when did that start? I'm assuming your scenario started at the T, no?

 

[Geosurface]

If EagleKeeper isn't joking, I'll eat my own face.

 

[spidey07]

If EagleKeeper isn't joking, I'll eat my own face.

He's playing the part of just how far of a leap you must make to fit with known facts and evidence. However, you can even poke holes in that as the broken nose would have more abrasion on it and the "scrapes" were not scrapes but lacerations caused by blunt force.

 

[Geosurface]

Yea, there is literally no way those wounds were caused by any sort of accidental fall, they are too numerous, too spread out across front and back of head, etc. They fit the scenario GZ describes perfectly.

 

[spidey07]

Yea, there is literally no way those wounds were caused by any sort of accidental fall, they are too numerous, too spread out across front and back of head, etc. They fit the scenario GZ describes perfectly.

I especially like the abrasions on the forehead and temple area showing finger imprints where the thug grabbed his head like a melon and repeatedly bashed it into the concrete.

ALL evidence backs up zimmerman's account of events with nothing to refute it.

Every what if there is can be destroyed by eye witness account seconds before the shot. That right there makes it self-defense beyond any doubt. It is a travesty of justice that this man was arrested.

 

[momeNt]

Hopefully GZ can be found liable for wrongful death civil suit. Spidey and a few others will probably gladly fork over some dough to help him cover the damages.

The criminal court doesn't have the tools to nail this retard, hopefully the civil courts don't let us down. Criminally guilty or not, i think everybody can agree GZ is a fucking moron, and if he doesn't pay with time served in prison, he'll pay actual cash money.

 

[Geosurface]

I think GZ is poorly spoken, a bit naive, and not the brightest bulb in the box.

However, I do not agree that he is a "moron" - I wouldn't go that far. I think he's just sort of your average guy, and he was trying to do positive things for his community. Once upon a time in this country that sort of everyday working man, maybe not the sharpest guy, but the hard working guy supporting his family and trying to be a conscientious neighbor and member of the community, would've been valued.

Now we live in a society that demonizes him. Because treating the black community like infants has become more important than the truth, the law, or what's right.

"Oh poor babies don't you worry your little heads about those big bad laws and facts, we're gonna get you some social 'justice' and if you get impatient while we work on that, and want to attack a bunch of white people across the country while screaming 'justice for Trayvon' based partially on the atrocious reporting we've done on this case, to protect your feelings, that's okay too because we'll bend over backwards to avoid reporting on that violence."

 

[TerryMathews]

Hopefully GZ can be found liable for wrongful death civil suit. Spidey and a few others will probably gladly fork over some dough to help him cover the damages.

The criminal court doesn't have the tools to nail this retard, hopefully the civil courts don't let us down. Criminally guilty or not, i think everybody can agree GZ is a fucking moron, and if he doesn't pay with time served in prison, he'll pay actual cash money.

Likely if he is found not guilty, civil immunity will apply. It does if justified self defense is found.

Sorry to ruin your dream, but justice will be served. Justice, not vengeance.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Likely if he is found not guilty, civil immunity will apply. It does if justified self defense is found.

Sorry to ruin your dream, but justice will be served. Justice, not vengeance.

This is why the prosecution must first prove that this is not a case of justified force (self defense) if they can't then GZ will be immune from civil action.

If the defense can prove GZ was justified in his use of force during the evidentiary (immunity) hearing then he will immediately have immunity from any further criminal prosecution and civil action.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force.[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

 

[airdata]

That statement made by GZ could be a piece of a larger puzzle. The problem is, the other necessary pieces of the puzzle you're trying to complete are missing. You suggest that GZ tried to restrain TM, but what evidence is there that happened?

I really would love to hear your version of how you think the scenario unfolded, from the point GZ and TM are face to face, and how exactly you think GZ attempted to "detain" TM, and what evidence supports this attempted detainment.

Go find the DA's interview w\ Dee Dee. She gives a play by play of when the 2 met. Trayvon says to him " why are you following me?" Zimmerman answers in an angry tone " what are you doing around here" ( This perfectly matches his demeanor he'd exhibited previously)

She then think she hears "Get off me". The logical conclusion there would be that Zimmerman grabs Trayvon to attempt to detain him. He didn't refer to him as a fucking punk and chase after him just to chit chat. He was going to make sure that asshole didn't get away like so many other assholes before him had.


It's important to note that Zimmerman's official statement to police states that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon ' emerged from the darkness ' and asked if he had a problem, he answered no , and then trayvon said you do now before punching him, etc.

They way Dee Dee describes Zimmerman saying ' What are you doing around here' in an angry tone makes alot more sense to me since we have his phone call w\ police recorded. We know the state of mind he was in from his statements of ' these assholes always get away ' and ' fucking punk(s) '.

It's understandable Zimmerman would make up lies. He's not totally stupid. Anybody who just killed somebody has to know if the back of their head they could be going to prison. He knows that if he owns up to chasing trayvon down that his self defense claims hold alot less water than if he claims he was blind sided.


I think he caught up to Trayvon. He grabbed him so that he wouldn't get away. Trayvon then went on the defensive and dropped him w\ a solid punch to the face. Then after sustaining minor injuries he pulled his pistol and made the conscious decision to shoot trayvon knowing that it could kill him.

Then when he realized he was standing over a dead or dying teenager he started making up bullshit he could tell police and in turn also told different stories to family and friends from what he told the police.

 

[spidey07]

So all the multple head wounds, the multple lacerations to back of head, the multple abrasions on his face, the finger sized abrazsions around his forehead, the busted lip...the broken nose. You're going to IGNORE all that evidence?

Then you're going to ignore the eye witness who said martin was on top of zimmerman reigning down blows MMA style just seconds before the shot?

Because that right there is what proves beyond any doubt it was self defense, there is no way the can not be self defense given the evidence. It's just not possible.

 

[momeNt]

In cases of simultaneous self-defense. Trayvon seeing GZ reaching for his gun or reasonably believing that GZ was reaching for a gun given the tone of their initial conversation, and GZ provoking the use of force against himself and reasonably believing himself to be in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm, the nod goes to the one who lived.

 

[OCNewbie]

I think he caught up to Trayvon. He grabbed him so that he wouldn't get away.

So an angry, or enraged (how angry was GZ do you think?) GZ attempts to grab 6'+ unknown burglar and just hold him til police arrive? You think that was GZ's plan? Does that make any sense? GZ just expected to bear hug him or something until the police arrived?

If GZ attempted to grab TM, where are the deformations on TM's clothing? Did GZ softly grab at TM's hoodie and say "please, come with me"? Were there tears in TM's clothing that I'm not aware of? There isn't any evidence that GZ attempted to detain, or physically grab TM.

 

[TerryMathews]

In cases of simultaneous self-defense. Trayvon seeing GZ reaching for his gun or reasonably believing that GZ was reaching for a gun given the tone of their initial conversation, and GZ provoking the use of force against himself and reasonably believing himself to be in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm, the nod goes to the one who lived.

Exactly. The law allows for the possibility that both men had a right to self defense but only the survivors is relevant.

 

[TerryMathews]

Go find the DA's interview w\ Dee Dee. She gives a play by play of when the 2 met. Trayvon says to him " why are you following me?" Zimmerman answers in an angry tone " what are you doing around here" ( This perfectly matches his demeanor he'd exhibited previously)

She then think she hears "Get off me". The logical conclusion there would be that Zimmerman grabs Trayvon to attempt to detain him. He didn't refer to him as a fucking punk and chase after him just to chit chat. He was going to make sure that asshole didn't get away like so many other assholes before him had.


It's important to note that Zimmerman's official statement to police states that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon ' emerged from the darkness ' and asked if he had a problem, he answered no , and then trayvon said you do now before punching him, etc.

They way Dee Dee describes Zimmerman saying ' What are you doing around here' in an angry tone makes alot more sense to me since we have his phone call w\ police recorded. We know the state of mind he was in from his statements of ' these assholes always get away ' and ' fucking punk(s) '.

It's understandable Zimmerman would make up lies. He's not totally stupid. Anybody who just killed somebody has to know if the back of their head they could be going to prison. He knows that if he owns up to chasing trayvon down that his self defense claims hold alot less water than if he claims he was blind sided.


I think he caught up to Trayvon. He grabbed him so that he wouldn't get away. Trayvon then went on the defensive and dropped him w\ a solid punch to the face. Then after sustaining minor injuries he pulled his pistol and made the conscious decision to shoot trayvon knowing that it could kill him.

Then when he realized he was standing over a dead or dying teenager he started making up bullshit he could tell police and in turn also told different stories to family and friends from what he told the police.

Testimony should not be sufficient to convict anyone. What evidence to you have to supplant her assertions, or yours?

Your second to last paragraph describes lawful self defense in Florida just FYI.

 

[Geosurface]

I honestly have never heard this supposed rage in GZ's voice on the call when he talks about "fucking punks" and "assholes" - to me it has always sounded like casual, conversational griping for the purpose of attempting to form a bond with law enforcement.

The sort of little chit chat the average guy makes when dealing with a representative of an envied or respected group, to get that little buzz in his mind of "hey we're on the same team!" at worst this is slightly lame, I don't find it to be indicative of much of anything.

A good analogy would be when the guy who doesn't really know that much about cars goes to get work done on his, and tries to flex what little bit of knowledge he does have while talking to the mechanic about what work needs to be done. Or tries to nod and agree with what the mechanic says to indicate a higher level of understanding than is actually present.

Or the city boy who goes out camping / hunting with his friend who does it more often, and out of a bit of an insecurity about his lack of knowledge and experience, tries to seem more at home in that environment than he actually is.

I think GZ had a sort of idolization of law enforcement in a way, and did desire to be seen as helpful to them, to be regarded as on the same team in some minor way.

However, I do not believe this was a powerful enough force to override things like his own natural self-preservation of desire to avoid breaking the law himself.

I do not believe he would have the balls, quite frankly, to directly approach a 6'3" black guy in the dark, alone, whom he believed to be a criminal of some sort. I think he'd be terrified of coming into direct contact with such a person, whether he had a gun on him or not. I think he *was* terrified when TM suddenly reappeared, and confronted him. Stunned into a meek little "no I don't have a problem" response. I don't see him having the guts and balls to be demanding answers from TM.

This is the guy who had just said in a quavering little tone "just get an officer out here!" when he was still in his car and Trayvon was approaching, hand in waistband.

This is the little 5'9" pudgy guy whose previous call to police about a burglary contained the phrase "I don't want to approach this guy, personally"

I think GZ got caught up in the moment and knew an officer was on the way, didn't want the cop to show up and be standing there without much to tell him other than "yea he ran down that way... like 10 minutes ago or more" I think he tried to maintain a visual, and didn't consider the idea that after TM ran he might stop, or double back. I have no doubt that he has wished he considered this possibility and had stayed in his car, more than anything else he'd ever wished for in his life. It may not have been the best decision ever, with hindsight, but it wasn't immoral or unlawful, or even particularly dumb. Just not maximally shrewd.

But yea, I could be wrong. Airdata might be right, maybe GZ did spot TM again south of the T, and jog to catch up to him and try to make him stay put til cops arrived, either through verbal intimidation, or even physically detaining him. It's possible. I don't find it likely at all, but it's possible.

To my knowledge there isn't any evidence to point in that direction at all, and there's a fair amount to point away from it. And honestly, should a man spend 30 years in prison because someone was able to come up with a semi-plausible story of how shit might have gone down, and then managed to get some stupid ass jurors to buy it?

Fact is, my understanding of Florida law is, even if he did try to physically detain, he's not obligated to lay there and be beaten to death, nor does he forfeit his right to defend his life... when you're pinned down and can't run, and you spend a full minute begging for mercy and yelling for help, and you receive neither... greenlight on popping a cap in that ass.

And as for Deedee, anyone who was completely off the radar for weeks, made no contact with any sort of law enforcement or TM's family, for weeks... after supposedly hearing something like that? And then won't talk to the police department which is investigating the shooting... and won't say anything to anyone until she's been thoroughly Crump-coached, then undeniably offers to lie for TM's posthumous benefit during her deposition to prosecutors at least TWICE... give me a fucking break, she absolutely must be disregarded. Zero credibility.

 

[soundforbjt]

There's no PROOF it was GZ screaming. There's no proof for alot of what GZ "claims" happened that night. His story changes as much as Mitt Romney's positions...yet like Romney's supporters, they ignore the many changes because they want him to win.