Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[OCNewbie]

Why do you keep posting unverified information and pretending you have anything to back it up?

Why don't you ask yourself the same question:

Nobody in their right mind does that. The behavior Zimmerman displayed that night should be an example of screening for gun ownership. If you follow around random people because they're the same race as other people who have done wrong... no gun for you.

Again, you're making assessments on mental health which you aren't qualified to make: "nobody in their right mind"

When you shoot somebody on purpose, you do so with the assumed understanding that you very well may kill that person.

When you perform actions against somebody and you know you could kill them, it's murder.

Actually that's called homicide. Which is also a key element in a self-defense killing.

You may wanna brush up on your understanding of the definition of murder:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder?s=t

It's not as if he accidentally discharged his gun and it's manslaughter. He meant to shoot him and knew that his actions could lead to him killing Trayvon.

Correct. He intentionally shot TM to save his own life, and/or to save himself from more serious injuries. That's called homicide, and it doesn't become murder (which if you clicked the definition link above you'll see that murder is a legal term) until/if he's tried and convicted of such a charge.

Now, this all happened while he was in the middle of an adrenaline dump and was no doubt seeing red and not thinking straight.

You mean the kind of situation one would be in when their life is in jeopardy and they must act in order to save their own life? Yeah, I guess I can agree with you there. Now, if he HAD been thinking straight, then that might be worthy of a murder charge.

This type of stuff has been discussed alot w\ police chases.

It happens with lots of life or death situations too. Like soldiers in the military, or people who find themselves in a situation where they believe their life is in danger.

Murdering Trayvon was not needed to end the altercation.

There's no possible way to know what the outcome would have been had GZ not pulled the trigger.

 

[chucky2]

I already posted this twice in previous pages. Perhaps you couldn't be bothered to read.

Apparently what you're doing is suggesting that Trayvon was in imminent danger and it's his fault he was killed? Am I reading this correctly? Because that's how your post sounds... sounds as if the psychopath w\ a gun gets a pass because the person doing nothing wrong chose not to go all the way home and go inside.

"can't explain away the time . . . ." You don't have to. Trayvon was doing nothing wrong. Perhaps he wanted to chit chat on the phone as a witness describes him doing before she heard him asking somebody why they were following him, and the person replying " what are you doing around here?".

Perhaps after a 10 second sprint he thought that no asshole in their car was really going to leave their car to start an altercation with him.

I know when I'm walking around, I don't expect random people to come start shit with me.


This is where some of you need to grasp that there are 2 people in the story.

1) psychotic asshole w\ a gun who's racially profiling person #2

2) kid walking home from 711 talking on the phone doing nothing to harm anybody else.

psychotic asshole w\ a gun causes all events to happen and is solely responsible for all events that night including making a calculated decision to shoot somebody else without warning and knowing that such actions could very well kill the other person ( murder ).

Your rebuttal here has already been sufficiently addressed, no need to shoot it down again. I'd add though, it's clear from your response here you are so far past the point of rationality on this as to be useless to even attempt to reason with. Good luck rest of you, personally, I think "debating" with airdata on this is about as worthwhile as "debating" with karmypolitics in the gun threads. Logic has left the building with them long ago, it's pure emotion for them. Can't argue with feelings...

Chuck

 

[Doppel]

Any projections on when this trial will be over? When the jury acquits GZ can we get assurances that the race baiters in this thread will be contrite?

 

[Tom]

Let me put it this way: Even I, in my current obese and completely out of shape form, could have mad it back - easily - to TMs house that night given where TM started from, before GZ ever had any hope of catching me. That alone should tell you all you need to know about the relatively in shape teenage male not being able to somehow accomplish that.

Forget as fast as he could. Something close to that isn't even needed. The time differential simply cannot be explained away. Knowing what any runner (or person who cares to sit down and spend 2 minutes figuring it out) knows about speed, distance, and effort, no one could say this isn't damning to TM supporters arguments.

Forget who may have hit who, yada yada...no one can explain that time in any credible and realistic manner, and then apply that TM thought process to anything that happens next.

Done. It's over.

Chuck

The possible ways Martin could have spent that time are infinite. Your suggestion there's only two ways is preposterous.

On top of that, it doesn't make any difference. We know there was an encounter.

 

[Tom]

Any projections on when this trial will be over? When the jury acquits GZ can we get assurances that the race baiters in this thread will be contrite?

Why should they be when Zimmerman's supporters already are prepared to say any conviction of Zimmerman would be wrong ?

 

[airdata]

I love when people like tom save me the trouble of responding to idiots multiple times about the same thing.

 

[hal2kilo]

Any projections on when this trial will be over? When the jury acquits GZ can we get assurances that the race baiters in this thread will be contrite?

Obviousy not soon enough, as this mind numbing thread continues on and on and on...........

 

[Geosurface]

Obviousy not soon enough, as this mind numbing thread continues on and on and on...........

Yea and damn that computer virus you just can't seem to remove that keeps forcing your browser into the thread!

 

[chucky2]

The possible ways Martin could have spent that time are infinite. Your suggestion there's only two ways is preposterous.

On top of that, it doesn't make any difference. We know there was an encounter.

Yes, they may be 'infinite', but they are not rationally explainable while sticking to TM side story(ies). So, Yes, it makes all the difference in the world.

And no sh1t there was an encounter. Explaining the time piece explains why there was an encounter.

If the TM side cannot explain why the 12 year old Skittles bearing terrified kid, who had minutes to make it back to the safety of his own home, didn't get back to his own home ASAP, then the TM side really has nothing else to stand on. Your side needs to be able to explain that rationally, staying within the context(s) you've painted TM in.

Good luck with that.

Chuck

 

[classy]

Yes, they may be 'infinite', but they are not rationally explainable while sticking to TM side story(ies). So, Yes, it makes all the difference in the world.

And no sh1t there was an encounter. Explaining the time piece explains why there was an encounter.

If the TM side cannot explain why the 12 year old Skittles bearing terrified kid, who had minutes to make it back to the safety of his own home, didn't get back to his own home ASAP, then the TM side really has nothing else to stand on. Your side needs to be able to explain that rationally, staying within the context(s) you've painted TM in.

Good luck with that.

Chuck

I have said this from the very beginning, this case comes down just a couple of things. All the stuff about Trayvon getting home and all that is irrelevant. It means nothing.

A judge or jury is going to have to decipher really just one aspect of this case. Did Trayvon attack GZ out of fear or malice? Thats it in a nutshell. While all the talk surrounding stand your ground and self defense has been beaten to death, those laws do not allow a person to become a vigilante. Thats why his injuries are not as big a deal as some here would believe. His injuries are consistent with someone fighting him off and more importantly trying to protect themselves against a stranger, who now we know was armed.

Thats really it, nothing else. If a judge or jury believes Trayvon fought him because he was trying to protect himself, GZ will go to jail. I will stand by my original saying, I think he is guilty, because he pursued an innocent person. While no knows what happened, my whole problem is, GZ story doesn't fit the biggest question I have. Why would he run, try to hide, and then attack a person? If he was this bad guy as many are potraying him to be, why did he not initially confront GZ, why wait? Clearly we can see he had no problem taking on GZ.

Thats the biggest question and GZ's story doesn't fit. Why would he not challenge GZ right from the very beginning? Why run and try to hide, then for whatever reason come out and attack? It is clear he could have whipped GZ's ass anywhere they squared off, so clearly GZ did something to provoke the attack, because without a doubt the young buck was able to get the best of him and he could have done that anywhere and at anytime.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I have said this from the very beginning, this case comes down just a couple of things. All the stuff about Trayvon getting home and all that is irrelevant. It means nothing.

A judge or jury is going to have to decipher really just one aspect of this case. Did Trayvon attack GZ out of fear or malice? Thats it in a nutshell. While all the talk surrounding stand your ground and self defense has been beaten to death, those laws do not allow a person to become a vigilante. Thats why his injuries are not as big a deal as some here would believe. His injuries are consistent with someone fighting him off and more importantly trying to protect themselves against a stranger, who now we know was armed.

Thats really it, nothing else. If a judge or jury believes Trayvon fought him because he was trying to protect himself, GZ will go to jail. I will stand by my original saying, I think he is guilty, because he pursued an innocent person. While no knows what happened, my whole problem is, GZ story doesn't fit the biggest question I have. Why would he run, try to hide, and then attack a person? If he was this bad guy as many are potraying him to be, why did he not initially confront GZ, why wait? Clearly we can see he had no problem taking on GZ.

Thats the biggest question and GZ's story doesn't fit. Why would he not challenge GZ right from the very beginning? Why run and try to hide, then for whatever reason come out and attack? It is clear he could have whipped GZ's ass anywhere they squared off, so clearly GZ did something to provoke the attack, because without a doubt the young buck was able to get the best of him and he could have done that anywhere and at anytime.

Doesn't matter whether he attacked due to fear or out of malice, the fact of the matter is TM did in fact attack GZ and was shot during the attack. The law is quite clear on when deadly force can be used and all the evidence point towards this being a case of self defense.

 

[spidey07]

Doesn't matter whether he attacked due to fear or out of malice, the fact of the matter is TM did in fact attack GZ and was shot during the attack. The law is quite clear on when deadly force can be used and all the evidence point towards this being a case of self defense.

Not only that, you are only allowed to defend yourself up to and including stopping the threat. Precedent and the law say when somebody is on their back and you are mounting them after brutally beating them they can no longer be an imminent threat.

Even IF zimmerman were somehow the initial aggressor, all facts and evidence actually PROVE self defense.

 

[Lemon law]

Any projections on when this trial will be over? When the jury acquits GZ can we get assurances that the race baiters in this thread will be contrite?

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It seems to me you are asking a foolish question Doppel, when the George Zimmerman trial has not even started yet!

As it is, the trail date is tentatively set for 6/10/2013, and even that assumes no furthers delays.

Meanwhile, INMO, feel this whole thread is the longest pissing contest I have even seen on P&N. 1710 pages and counting, dare we hope to get to 3,000 pages while everyone second guess what the Jury will actually find. And even then, unless the jury finds Zimmerman totally innocent, there will be the inevitable appeals. As the other question becomes, will Zimmerman have to go to the slammer meanwhile, or will Zimmerman remain free pending the outcome of the appeals.

As for me, just on a gut feeling and nothing more, am guessing Zimmerman will be better off pleading guilty to a less plea bargained charge, serve some time in jail, rather than risk being found guilty by the Jury.

Meanwhile, until the Zimmerman trial at least starts, why keep speculating on the outcome ad nausiem? While posting ever person's opinion like its established fact.

 

[classy]

Not only that, you are only allowed to defend yourself up to and including stopping the threat. Precedent and the law say when somebody is on their back and you are mounting them after brutally beating them they can no longer be an imminent threat.

Even IF zimmerman were somehow the initial aggressor, all facts and evidence actually PROVE self defense.

And that is where the question lies, look at this in reverse. I don't think there is much doubt, that GZ will be portrayed as the initial aggressor. But the question is all that Trayvon did, did not keep GZ from shooting him. So it goes back to my point, if a judge or jury believes Trayvon was defending himself, GZ goes to jail. Because the law doesn't state what is proper use of force. Shooting someone with a gun is no more acceptable than mounting or trying pin a person down.

You keep saying brutally beating, the law states a person can defend themselves up to using even deadly force. Where does it state that proper force is only with a gun?

 

[airdata]

He didn't confront GZ from the beginning because he had no reason to. He was minding his own business & doing nothing wrong.

GZ forced a confrontation to happen while under the false assumption that Trayvon was one of the black burglars they'd had in the area.

 

[hal2kilo]

Meanwhile, INMO, feel this whole thread is the longest pissing contest I have even seen on P&N. 1710 pages and counting, dare we hope to get to 3,000 pages while everyone second guess what the Jury will actually find.

You must have missed the Building 7 (or was it 8, I get my conspiracies mixed up) thread.

 

[spidey07]

And that is where the question lies, look at this in reverse. I don't think there is much doubt, that GZ will be portrayed as the initial aggressor. But the question is all that Trayvon did, did not keep GZ from shooting him. So it goes back to my point, if a judge or jury believes Trayvon was defending himself, GZ goes to jail. Because the law doesn't state what is proper use of force. Shooting someone with a gun is no more acceptable than mounting or trying pin a person down.

You keep saying brutally beating, the law states a person can defend themselves up to using even deadly force. Where does it state that proper force is only with a gun?

Any and all force necessary to stop the imminent threat. Being on your back, mounted after being brutally beaten and screaming for your life = not a threat, martin is not legally allowed to do anything to him once it gets to that point. It is at that point that any reasonable person would fear for their life and use any and all force necessary to stop the immediate and imminent threat by shooting the assailant mounting you preventing your escape/retreat.

All the evidence shows a forcible felony (aggrivated assault and felony battery) committed by Martin. Committing a forcible felony allows the victim to use any force necessary including lethal. There is no mention zimmerman committed any forcible felony in the affidavit, nor is there any evidence of such. Wanna know why? Because he didn't commit any forcible felony.

 

[Tom]

Yes, they may be 'infinite', but they are not rationally explainable while sticking to TM side story(ies). So, Yes, it makes all the difference in the world.

And no sh1t there was an encounter. Explaining the time piece explains why there was an encounter.

If the TM side cannot explain why the 12 year old Skittles bearing terrified kid, who had minutes to make it back to the safety of his own home, didn't get back to his own home ASAP, then the TM side really has nothing else to stand on. Your side needs to be able to explain that rationally, staying within the context(s) you've painted TM in.

Good luck with that.

Chuck

who said he was terrified ? not me. I don't claim to know stuff I don't know.

TM had no obligation to hurry home, or go home at all.

There's nothing to explain.

 

[chucky2]

who said he was terrified ? not me. I don't claim to know stuff I don't know.

TM had no obligation to hurry home, or go home at all.

There's nothing to explain.

Given the length of this thread, I can't tell you to go back and read the thread. Even walking though, TM should have been back safe and sound at his place. He wasn't. Why?

 

[EagleKeeper]

He didn't confront GZ from the beginning because he had no reason to. He was minding his own business & doing nothing wrong.

GZ forced a confrontation to happen while under the false assumption that Trayvon was one of the black burglars they'd had in the area.

How did he force a confrontation.

GZ was walking along the sidewalk. Any evidence to the contrary?

Is there any possibility that GZ was correct? He just did not allow TM to complete the profile. Much can depend on what the results of the school belongs show.

 

[lotus503]

Given the length of this thread, I can't tell you to go back and read the thread. Even walking though, TM should have been back safe and sound at his place. He wasn't. Why?

Its simple really and been pointed out multiple times.

Its likley he didnt go back home because he wanted to talk on the phone like teenagers do, i'm pretty sure the call logs will verify this, why would he run home? he had already lost Zimemrman.

That is until Zimmerman left his car to go find him, which I dont think TM or anyone would really consider as likley.

Dudes bird dogging you from his car, you run where the car cant go, problem solved.

 

[EagleKeeper]

And that is where the question lies, look at this in reverse. I don't think there is much doubt, that GZ will be portrayed as the initial aggressor. But the question is all that Trayvon did, did not keep GZ from shooting him. So it goes back to my point, if a judge or jury believes Trayvon was defending himself, GZ goes to jail. Because the law doesn't state what is proper use of force. Shooting someone with a gun is no more acceptable than mounting or trying pin a person down.

You keep saying brutally beating, the law states a person can defend themselves up to using even deadly force. Where does it state that proper force is only with a gun?

There is no evidence that TM was defending himself.
Until that happens; the shooting by GZ while TM was defending himself goes out the window.

The evidence is that TM was attacking GZ; not the other way around.

 

[lotus503]

There is no evidence that TM was defending himself.
Until that happens; the shooting by GZ while TM was defending himself goes out the window.

The evidence is that TM was attacking GZ; not the other way around.

And this is the crux of the issue, Lack of evidence, unless there is something that proves beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman was the initiator and martin was in reasonable fear for his life. he walks. Witness #8 testimony depending on what it is, may demonstrate that to a jury.

 

[spidey07]

And this is the crux of the issue, Lack of evidence, unless there is something that proves beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman was the initiator and martin was in reasonable fear for his life. he walks. Witness #8 testimony depending on what it is, may demonstrate that to a jury.

You can't be in reasonable fear for your life after you brutally beat somebody and then are mounting them preventing their escape so you can continue your beating as they scream for their life. Zimmerman was no threat to martin at that time, there is eye witnesses statements to this FACT.

Even IF zimmerman was the initial aggressor, all evidence proves he acted in self defense as his attacker had mounted him after brutally beating zimmerman about the head and prevented his retreat.

It doesn't get much more text book self defense than that.

 

[EagleKeeper]

And that is where the question lies, look at this in reverse. I don't think there is much doubt, that GZ will be portrayed as the initial aggressor. But the question is all that Trayvon did, did not keep GZ from shooting him. So it goes back to my point, if a judge or jury believes Trayvon was defending himself, GZ goes to jail. Because the law doesn't state what is proper use of force. Shooting someone with a gun is no more acceptable than mounting or trying pin a person down.

You keep saying brutally beating, the law states a person can defend themselves up to using even deadly force. Where does it state that proper force is only with a gun?

There is no evidence that TM was defending himself.
Until that happens; the shooting by GZ while TM was defending himself goes out the window.

The evidence is that TM was attacking GZ; not the other way around.

And this is the crux of the issue, Lack of evidence, unless there is something that proves beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman was the initiator and martin was in reasonable fear for his life. he walks. Witness #8 testimony depending on what it is, may demonstrate that to a jury.

Regretfully most in the TM camp refuse to see this.

There is no evidence to weaken the primary story. Martin was attacking Zimmerman; did not stop when yelled at and was shot while still over/on top of Zimmerman.

Evidence as to how the situation may evolved is murky but does not negate the final facts.

Theories can be developed to support Martin and holes can be poked in them.