Underwater harpoon - if shot out of water would it go further than if shot underwater?

f50bodyjunk

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2007
3
0
0
A friend and I were walking through our local sports store and came across some underwater harpoons. The discussion came up of whether a properly designed underwater harpoon arrow shot underwater would travel further than one shot out of the water.

My thoughts are that if its designed for underwater travel, its possible to make it go further, than if it were shot out of the water by the same harpoon gun.

His argument was more along the lines of air having less resistance than water, and so even if it was designed to travel optimally underwater, when you shoot it outside of water it goes even further.

What do you guys think?

 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,282
133
106
Originally posted by: f50bodyjunk
A friend and I were walking through our local sports store and came across some underwater harpoons. The discussion came up of whether a properly designed underwater harpoon arrow shot underwater would travel further than one shot out of the water.

My thoughts are that if its designed for underwater travel, its possible to make it go further, than if it were shot out of the water by the same harpoon gun.

His argument was more along the lines of air having less resistance than water, and so even if it was designed to travel optimally underwater, when you shoot it outside of water it goes even further.

What do you guys think?

Your friend is right. Water resistance is much higher then air resistance, it provides a significant effect on how far something can travel. The only way a harpoon would go further underwater then in air is if.

1. It has some sort of motor on it.

2. the harpoon shooter creates a vortex that somehow continues to add energy to the harpoon (not very likely)

If you shoot two harpoons at a 45* angle in the air and in water, the one in air will travel further.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: f50bodyjunk
A friend and I were walking through our local sports store and came across some underwater harpoons. The discussion came up of whether a properly designed underwater harpoon arrow shot underwater would travel further than one shot out of the water.

My thoughts are that if its designed for underwater travel, its possible to make it go further, than if it were shot out of the water by the same harpoon gun.

His argument was more along the lines of air having less resistance than water, and so even if it was designed to travel optimally underwater, when you shoot it outside of water it goes even further.

What do you guys think?

Your friend is right. Water resistance is much higher then air resistance, it provides a significant effect on how far something can travel. The only way a harpoon would go further underwater then in air is if.

1. It has some sort of motor on it.

2. the harpoon shooter creates a vortex that somehow continues to add energy to the harpoon (not very likely)

If you shoot two harpoons at a 45* angle in the air and in water, the one in air will travel further.

not necessarily, while its obviously true that water has a much higher resistance there is also the fact that when you fire in the air the harpoon will be yanked down by gravity and hit the ground alot quicker then it would if it were going through water.
 

f50bodyjunk

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2007
3
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: f50bodyjunk
A friend and I were walking through our local sports store and came across some underwater harpoons. The discussion came up of whether a properly designed underwater harpoon arrow shot underwater would travel further than one shot out of the water.

My thoughts are that if its designed for underwater travel, its possible to make it go further, than if it were shot out of the water by the same harpoon gun.

His argument was more along the lines of air having less resistance than water, and so even if it was designed to travel optimally underwater, when you shoot it outside of water it goes even further.

What do you guys think?

Your friend is right. Water resistance is much higher then air resistance, it provides a significant effect on how far something can travel. The only way a harpoon would go further underwater then in air is if.

1. It has some sort of motor on it.

2. the harpoon shooter creates a vortex that somehow continues to add energy to the harpoon (not very likely)

If you shoot two harpoons at a 45* angle in the air and in water, the one in air will travel further.

not necessarily, while its obviously true that water has a much higher resistance there is also the fact that when you fire in the air the harpoon will be yanked down by gravity and hit the ground alot quicker then it would if it were going through water.

That was part of my thinking. I figured that if optimized for water it might glide through water further than if it were to try to glide through air.

Another thought I had was that if optimized for water, if shot in the air, it might not travel as smoothly as one would think and so it would wobble to the ground.

Stability underwater vs non stability in air, combined with a design that reduces drag under water made me think that it might be possible for it go further underwater.

 

firewolfsm

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2005
1,848
29
91
I think it could move straighter and smoother underwater, but ultimately won't be able to go as far. The water pressure will still slow it down from the front. A harpoon shot by a gun could go for miles really, it's not hard to do. I can't see that happening underwater.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: firewolfsm
I think it could move straighter and smoother underwater, but ultimately won't be able to go as far. The water pressure will still slow it down from the front. A harpoon shot by a gun could go for miles really, it's not hard to do. I can't see that happening underwater.

How deep is the ocean again? Shot just below the surface, above the Marianas Trench
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,691
68
91
Originally posted by: f50bodyjunk

That was part of my thinking. I figured that if optimized for water it might glide through water further than if it were to try to glide through air.

Another thought I had was that if optimized for water, if shot in the air, it might not travel as smoothly as one would think and so it would wobble to the ground.

Stability underwater vs non stability in air, combined with a design that reduces drag under water made me think that it might be possible for it go further underwater.

It won't make much of a difference where it was designed for as it's a relatively benign object, aerodynamically speaking. It's pretty much just a difference in Reynolds number.

Stability typically works in a non-dimensional manner... I would guess that it would have the same stability in water and air, Reynolds number differences aside.

Basically in the air you have less drag, but in the water you have more buoyancy. I'd be surprised if it went farther underwater.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,341
291
126
"not necessarily, while its obviously true that water has a much higher resistance there is also the fact that when you fire in the air the harpoon will be yanked down by gravity and hit the ground alot quicker then it would if it were going through water. "

There are only two differences involving gravity. One is that the viscosity of the water slows things down more rapidly than air, so the harpoon will fall down in the water slightly slower. But the impact of that might be the same as the original question - if viscosity is slowing vertical motion, it also is slowing horizontal motion, and the net impact on distance travelled until it hits the ocean floor, ground, or whatever might not change much by this factor.

The other is the buoyancy. Archimedes' Principle says the net downward force acting on the harpoon is is mass times gravity, etc (its "weight"), minus the weight of the volume of fluid it displaces. So if the harpoon is deliberately engineered to have a low weight to volume ratio, the reduced apparent "weight" will mean it sinks vertially in water more slowly than in air. However, I really doubt anyone would design such a harpoon. After all, the usual idea is to make it really strong so that it can penetrate a target animal. At the same time you'd try to design for minimum diameter to reduce viscous drag, so I'd expect the shaft to be a solid rod, not a hollow tube.

I'm thinking this way: harpoon is shot out on a horizontal path in air at a certain distance above ground and a known initial velocity. The effect of air viscosity is small, so for a first approximation we assume the frictional loss of speed is zero, and treat it like the ideal situation in a vacuum. We would calculate the time taken for the harpoon with an initial VERTICAL velocity of zero to accelerate by gravity and fall to the ground. That's the flight time. That time, times initial (and unchanging) horizontal velocity determines the horizontal distance flown.

Now do this again in water, where the frictional forces from water do have a significant effect on velocity over time. Those forces both slow the vertical acceleration of falling and the horizontal velocity. The unknown here is the impacts of harpoon design on these two motions. I expect the design is optimized to reduce the impact of viscosity (friction) on the horizontal forward motion of the harpoon (ie, along its azis). But I doubt anyone worries a lot about minimizing frictional drag in the vertical direction (perpendicular to the harpoon axis). So just maybe the effects of water viscosity are different enough that the harpoon could actually travel further in water than in air, even though it will take longer in flight because the velocity is constantly decreasing.

So, my prediction: I don't know. Any harpoon designers out there who do?
 

rezinn

Platinum Member
Mar 30, 2004
2,418
0
0
The obvious answer is that it would go farther in air, all else equal. I've seen them shot in the air on TV and they can go hundreds of feet and still be "deadly" and fairly accurate. What's the normal range for underwater hunting? Nowhere near that far for sure.
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
Originally posted by: DrPizza

How deep is the ocean again? Shot just below the surface, above the Marianas Trench

Well of course the harpoon is going to go further in the water - even if you dropped it over the side!

EDIT: What do they use those harpoons for?
 

firewolfsm

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2005
1,848
29
91
Well we need a ground surface at the same elevation for this to be fair.

I used to have this torpedo I used in pools as a kid, I remember how much harder it was to give it speed because of drag on my arm, but still, when I threw with all my power I could get it to the other side, maybe 50 feet. Even as a kid, I could probably have thrown it much further. Things slow down quickly underwater unless there is a constant force acting on them.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
It might be possible to design a harpoon such that it traveled further underwater than in the air, all things being equal. At least in theory. Since the viscosity of water is higher, the Reynolds number for an equal velocity would be lower. Therefore, if the harpoon (and/or the gun) were designed such that the harpoon experienced turbulence in air but only laminar flow in water, it would experience a higher relative drag force in the air. I say "relative" because the density of the water is obviously much greater, which would cause the drag in water to be higher in virtually any circumstance. But it could be done, in theory.

Alternatively, you could argue that under certain conditions, pure water vapor is less dense and less viscous than air. Therefore, if tests were performed at these conditions, the harpoon would travel further in water. But that's probably cheating as well.
 

mpilchfamily

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2007
3,559
1
0
Originally posted by: rezinn
The obvious answer is that it would go farther in air, all else equal. I've seen them shot in the air on TV and they can go hundreds of feet and still be "deadly" and fairly accurate. What's the normal range for underwater hunting? Nowhere near that far for sure.

Yes everything we see on TV must be true. Like cars will blow up in mid air after drving off a cliff reguardless of weather it was on fire or not and a 6 shooter revolver is able to shoot 9 or more times without a reload.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0

I haven't shot a harpoon, but from my experience of shooting arrows & spears in and out of water suggest that harpoon will travel farther in air than in water.

 

xxTurbonium

Member
Oct 8, 2006
167
0
0
I would imagine there would be some sort of resistance and drag created by the "splash" of water as the harpoon went through the water-air interface (from water to air), but it would be negligible considering the mass and velocity of the harpoon. By "splash", I guess I mean the water moving back to replace the volume that is exiting the greater body of water (the mass being the harpoon).

I think the only time it would travel farther underwater than in the air would be if it was at a critically low speed (near the end of its total distance covered) where it would exit the water, and this drag would become significant to slow down the harpoon enough to make the total distance travelled less than if it had stayed underwater (and thus avoided the drag of interface crossing).

^ easily the most unclear thing I've ever written. Probably wrong too. I'm not an engineering or physics major. I hope you guys understood what I'm trying to say.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: databird
I would imagine there would be some sort of resistance and drag created by the "splash" of water as the harpoon went through the water-air interface (from water to air), but it would be negligible considering the mass and velocity of the harpoon. By "splash", I guess I mean the water moving back to replace the volume that is exiting the greater body of water (the mass being the harpoon).

I think the only time it would travel farther underwater than in the air would be if it was at a critically low speed (near the end of its total distance covered) where it would exit the water, and this drag would become significant to slow down the harpoon enough to make the total distance travelled less than if it had stayed underwater (and thus avoided the drag of interface crossing).

^ easily the most unclear thing I've ever written. Probably wrong too. I'm not an engineering or physics major. I hope you guys understood what I'm trying to say.
I think that by "Out of water," the OP meant "in the air." I thought the same thing at first too, since it's phrased ambiguously.
 
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