Union - Destroying American Business

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[BoomerD]

The city I live in went "charter city" a few years back. A couple of members on the city council were heavily tied into the developers, and thought that by doing away with the "Little Davis-Bacon" act, their non-union companies could actively compete for city contracts, and NOT have to pay their hands "prevailing wages".
Well, it's 10 years later, and the bulk of the work is STILL being awarded to the union contractors, even though they pay approximately double the wages of the RATCO contractors, PLUS the great benefit packages most of the unions have for their people.
Why? Better trained people mean more efficiency, safer work sites, more production, better quality of work done.
If the union contractors can outbid the RATCO contractors and still show a profit wihile paying union wages and benefits, WHY aren't the RATCO companies gettitng more of the work? The theroy is that by paying lower wages and no benefits, they'd be able to bid considerably lower on jobs, but that sure isn't happening here. The RATCO's are getting their asses kicked in competitive bidding.
Have there been some problems with unions over the years? You betcha, just like everything else in the world. I've worked places where seniority counted for more than quality of work, (usually government organizations) but that is the exception nowdays, NOT the norm. On union construction jobs, if you can't produce, you go down the road, and they call someone else out of the hall, who'd better be able to do the job. MY union, (IUOE Local #3) requires you to test for MINIMUM qualifications on any piece of equipment you want to be eligible for dispatch to run. In addition, Crene Certifications are required to operate cranes. FORTUNATELY, that's now a Kahleeforneeya state law, but we've been there for quite a while, setting the standard for safety and quality of performance. In fact, our union was one of the most active groups in getting the law passed, while the RATCO groups, like the ABC fought it tooth and nail...

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: bfdd
I'm a Union Millwright from Southern California and I personally find your post to be a load of bullshit.

Good response. You typify the union worker with this response. I give reasons why i think unions are bad, you give this kind of response. Blind allegiance to the union is pretty stupid IMO.

I was working for the UFCW during the southern California strike, and i was rooting for the stores. They simply can't compete with the ridiculous wages they were paying to union... the union didnt care, they simply wanted more money... the union lacks the foresight to see that business cant afford them anymore. Thats why the strike lasted 6 months... the companies knew the union was being f-ing retarded.


I don't care if it pisses you off. Keep paying your dues. Keep making more than you should. As a consumer, i'll just move on to the cheaper alternative and let you contribute to the demise of your company and ultimately the loss of your job.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: bfdd
I'm a Union Millwright from Southern California and I personally find your post to be a load of bullshit.

Good response. You typify the union worker with this response. I give reasons why i think unions are bad, you give this kind of response. Blind allegiance to the union is pretty stupid IMO.

I was working for the UFCW during the southern California strike, and i was rooting for the stores. They simply can't compete with the ridiculous wages they were paying to union... the union didnt care, they simply wanted more money... the union lacks the foresight to see that business cant afford them anymore. Thats why the strike lasted 6 months... the companies knew the union was being f-ing retarded.


I don't care if it pisses you off. Keep paying your dues. Keep making more than you should. As a consumer, i'll just move on to the cheaper alternative and let you contribute to the demise of your company and ultimately the loss of your job.

The cheaper alternative is made in china crap. Thank god we have you sending your money overseas.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
I wouldn't be working for $1/hr.... i put myself through school to better myself... as did my father, who's mexican and started life working in the fields with the rest of his family.

Why work hard when you can work union... as long as you put your hours in, you get your raises, promotions, etc.

blah blah blah, you're a chump, you went to college, graduated, and now you figured out Union laborers get more compensation. Your post is about sour grapes.

Sorry that you made some bad choices. I detect a sense of entitlement from you. I guess you will always have affirmative action to fall back on.

 

[Genx87]

afaik Unions represent a very small number of workers in the private workplace now. It is soemthing like 10-15% of workers in the non-public workplace are unionized. Their greediness did them in. However that wont stop them from doing the same to the public employer. The worst part about govt unions is they contribute to the very people who help them exist and rape the taxpayers. People claim greed in private business. I think there is much more greed in public govt unions.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12 In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

It wasn't the Union that killed the company. Rather, it was global labor arbitrage.

I tend to be anti-unions for some of the reasons you mentioned. Ideally, wages would be set by the free market. One of the big concerns is why the market has a huge supply of labor relative to capital. After all, in a healthy economy with a healthy job market, people would receive better pay and be able to afford a better standard of living and thus wouldn't feel a need for unions.

Our problem today is not the unions, but rather the explosion in the supply of labor, also known as global labor arbitrage. Union or no union, as long as we expose ourselves to the economic force of global labor arbitrage, Americans' quality of life will continue to decrease until it matches those of the other people in the global economy (near-third world quality of life).

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
I wouldn't be working for $1/hr.... i put myself through school to better myself... as did my father, who's mexican and started life working in the fields with the rest of his family.

Why work hard when you can work union... as long as you put your hours in, you get your raises, promotions, etc.

blah blah blah, you're a chump, you went to college, graduated, and now you figured out Union laborers get more compensation. Your post is about sour grapes.

Sorry that you made some bad choices. I detect a sense of entitlement from you. I guess you will always have affirmative action to fall back on.

Uhh... dude... i am for the most part white. I feel no entitlement, i just work hard to use my intelligence to get what I want. I work hard for what I have. I don't regret anything. I have a job i love, in a city i love, making good pay. I have lately seen more and more examples of unionized labor going beyond protectecting the workers and trying to bully companies into maintaining inflated wages. As it was said already, we cant compete with foreign labor with non-union labor, how are companies to survive WITH it? I know these examples are generic and do not apply in all cases, but in many, it is all too true.

Unlike yourself, who can rely on the power of your union to keep you employed, i need to perform to keep my job. Seeing as how I enjoy doing a good job, that's not a problem. Thats ok though, you just keep on keepin' on with your menial job. I know its hard to do the bare minimum to get a check every day and raises based soley on how long you've been there, but don't worry... the union has your back. By the way, does your welfare family need jobs, they're perfect union candidates!


BTW -as for that last paragraph I can blindly poke at you as easily as you at me.... it wasn't serious.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The problem here is not that there are too many unions in the US, but that there aren't enough of them elsewhere. Because businesses have globalized and labor hasn't, labor is at a distinct disadvantage because there is always another country that businesses can go to and exploit their workers more cheaply.

Workers being exploited elsewhere doesn't mean that they should be exploited here, it means it should be stopped there. Unions are absolutely essential as a bulwark against corporate excesses. The funny thing here is that somehow the right has gotten people to blame the unions for this problem, not the people actually responsible for it.

What good would unions do in India or China? The reason why they have low wages is not because they don't have unions, but because they have huge amounts of poverty. I suppose that the Indian and Chinese governments could mandate higher wages for those people who are employed. Maybe you could say that the solution is for governments to mandate certain minimum wages for certain types of work?

Also, if laborers were free to move to any country in the world--if they had "globalization", it wouldn't change anything because the overwhelming majority of people in the world are poor. In other words--if you had a single global market for labor and capital, wages would still provide only a third world standard of living. The solution is for an increase the amount of capital and a decrease in world population.

Of course, the solution for the United States is trade protectionism and an end to mass immigration.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: fallensight
Lack of Unions is why we have a 'race to the bottom' for pay and benifits for any non-upper management possiton. You think unions cause lazy people, you havnt been around enough. The company I work for(no unions in my state) has 'pay scales' for possitions. Once you get to the cap, NOTHING will get you more money. Period. ANd the scales are low enough that nearly everyone for a job is at the cap. Now when you have everyone at a cap,no bonus availible either, you now have a situation where the people only work hard enough to not get fired(which means just show up, more or less on time, and dont steal anything)

This sounds similar to my workplace. Yup. That's what happens. I've heard employees often say, "I haven't had a raise in two years, so why should I work any harder or go out of my way to do something? Why should I care?" However, I would argue that we have had a raise but haven't seen it since we still have excellent health, dental, and vision benefits and don't pay dime in premiums, and I know that the costs of the health care have to have increased. Still, lack of performance-based rewards promotes apathy and mediocre performance.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
I wouldn't be working for $1/hr.... i put myself through school to better myself... as did my father, who's mexican and started life working in the fields with the rest of his family.

Of course...that assumes that education-requiring jobs are available and that there isn't a huge oversupply of qualified educated people to take those jobs. It isn't an absolute.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: SKoprowski
It's not just the big 3- a memo from Toyota was leaked this week indicating their frustration with labor costs in the US- and they are not unionized. You can't possibly compete with labor in another country when their cost of living is over 3x less than the USA- doesn't matter that kind of business you do.

It should also be noted that there are other expenses beyond those for labor, such as the costs of complying with government regulations and taxes and also environmental regulations. Of course, since businesses will tend to purchase services and materials from other local businesses, they also have to pay higher prices for those materials and services (which is really paying more for labor).

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Uhh... dude... i am for the most part white. I feel no entitlement, i just work hard to use my intelligence to get what I want. I work hard for what I have. I don't regret anything. I have a job i love, in a city i love, making good pay. I have lately seen more and more examples of unionized labor going beyond protectecting the workers and trying to bully companies into maintaining inflated wages. As it was said already, we cant compete with foreign labor with non-union labor, how are companies to survive WITH it? I know these examples are generic and do not apply in all cases, but in many, it is all too true.


You make general inflamatory statements against people you dont know, about work envionments that you know nothing about.

You seem to think that because you went to college that that affords you a better standard of living then the average joe who goes to work doing a job that you wouldnt want to do.

You're not old enough to remember when the majority of middle class jobs had lots of benefits.

Todays jobs are not like that, todays jobs are what you can put in your pocket now. People move around a lot more chasing a larger salary, they dont care about a pension. They think that if they have a 401 they will be set for life. Many young workers dont even care about insurance as long as they can add a dollar to their salary.

The point I am trying to make is that there are many highly skilled people in Unions that dont need protection. Our employers value our experience and the value we add to their company. When our contract comes up for renewal every 2-3 years my company is usually first in line to sign it because they are very happy with the arrangement and if they have a problem they will bring it up then.

I never understood how people sit around and ponder that someone else makes too much. Why do you care? You will never hire me, you would have no reason to ever need my services unless you are charged with the task of having a commercial bldg. built...on time and on budget of course.

Union manufacturing is taking a hit not because the people make to much but because foreign workers make too little. If the State Dept. allows unlimited workers to come here tommorrow to apply for your job you will understand that concept I guess.

Toyota is on the verge of a fight because they have established themselves here and the employees are going to ask them for a piece of the cake they have sweat to build.

You're beef is with corporate America that is selling our jobs to cheap labor with no organized workplace laws outside the US.

I suspect you see yourself as reaping the rewards from your employers work to increase your bonus or eventually owning a company. You should read Stunts posts because you will identify with his ideals.

Why would you make a post calling out Union members unless you just felt like picking a fight?

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
I wouldn't be working for $1/hr.... i put myself through school to better myself... as did my father, who's mexican and started life working in the fields with the rest of his family.

Of course...that assumes that education-requiring jobs are available and that there isn't a huge oversupply of qualified educated people to take those jobs. It isn't an absolute.

Something the junior capitalists just can't seem to grasp the concept of. Once there's a glut of educated workers, the salaries of those jobs will drop like a rock (in which case you'll have people like OP whining that all these "dirtbag elitist educated scum" are costing him "what's rightfully mine")

 

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[fallensight]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: bfdd
I'm a Union Millwright from Southern California and I personally find your post to be a load of bullshit.

Good response. You typify the union worker with this response. I give reasons why i think unions are bad, you give this kind of response. Blind allegiance to the union is pretty stupid IMO.

I was working for the UFCW during the southern California strike, and i was rooting for the stores. They simply can't compete with the ridiculous wages they were paying to union... the union didnt care, they simply wanted more money... the union lacks the foresight to see that business cant afford them anymore. Thats why the strike lasted 6 months... the companies knew the union was being f-ing retarded.


I don't care if it pisses you off. Keep paying your dues. Keep making more than you should. As a consumer, i'll just move on to the cheaper alternative and let you contribute to the demise of your company and ultimately the loss of your job.

I am fimiliar with the strike you talk about there(and I live in NE). A few years back. Ralph's(owned by Kroger) is the exact company I was refering to earlier. I can tell you from first hand experiance, that the workers there would have been entirly in the right. Kroger in fact flew in labor from out of state to work the stores. They used primarily people from states with lower wages.

Some background on my views with the kroger co. They purchased the chain I work for in 2000. First thing they did was take away pay raises at store level, they now require corperate approval. When the scales rolled out shortly after, nearly every person was over the caps, in most cases by several dollars. Somehow before being bought our wages were deemed fair, and were in fact leading in the area. The new scales came down to be 'competitive with wal-mart", thier words.

Companies lie to the gov and anyone would would listen about how they make money. The men running the companies want billions for themselves and the stockholders. And they will lie and cheat to get there.

The buiseness claims they cant pay the wages for the regular workers. But they pay multi million dollar salries to the execs, AND turn multi billion dollar profits for the stock holders. Cant afford it my ass. It is pure greed.

By any chance is your degree a buisness degree?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: bfdd
I'm a Union Millwright from Southern California and I personally find your post to be a load of bullshit.

Good response. You typify the union worker with this response. I give reasons why i think unions are bad, you give this kind of response. Blind allegiance to the union is pretty stupid IMO.

I was working for the UFCW during the southern California strike, and i was rooting for the stores. They simply can't compete with the ridiculous wages they were paying to union... the union didnt care, they simply wanted more money... the union lacks the foresight to see that business cant afford them anymore. Thats why the strike lasted 6 months... the companies knew the union was being f-ing retarded.


I don't care if it pisses you off. Keep paying your dues. Keep making more than you should. As a consumer, i'll just move on to the cheaper alternative and let you contribute to the demise of your company and ultimately the loss of your job.

Here's an interesting question. This is all about being as "capitalist" as possible, right? Well if we're all for competition and the free market, why is it that you support a system designed to give businesses all the power when it comes to employment? Your entire rhetoric is about what's good for the business, but that's not always what's good for the employees.

 

[Craig234]

This is why we need unions to go global. Otherwise, competition among nations for the wealthy to invest forces them to reduce taxes and slash services, good for the rich and bad for the poor, while labor doesn't have any such competition paying them more, quite the opposite.

Only global agreements can prevent this economic imbalance.

It's a bit like how the theory of states regulating corporations goes out the window when Delaware gives the corporation a sweetheart deal, and most big corporations incorporate there.

 

[Moonbeam]

What we need to do is eliminate borders so ambitious people from anywhere in the world can go anywhere the can find work. Next we need to eliminate all professional standards that really are there to keep other people out, like licensing and educational requirements. Open every job to whoever in the world will do it the most efficiently. Millions of Chinese and Indians would work better and for far less at every job in America. Get rid of corporate law and patents and all the other crap that is there to prevent others from using ideas and the world will change over night. Americans will eventually learn to live on a bowl of rice and a living picking through trash.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Craig234
This is why we need unions to go global.

Otherwise, competition among nations for the wealthy to invest forces them to reduce taxes and slash services, good for the rich and bad for the poor, while labor doesn't have any such competition paying them more, quite the opposite.

Only global agreements can prevent this economic imbalance.

It's a bit like how the theory of states regulating corporations goes out the window when Delaware gives the corporation a sweetheart deal, and most big corporations incorporate there.

Exactly, you've seen where I propose every single American job under Union.

Clean up starts at home.

 

[nageov3t]

are unions even that pervasive anymore?

I've never worked a job that was unionized and the only people I know in unions are teachers.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

I couldn't agree more. Unions served their purpose many years ago, and got the workers the pay and treatment they deserved. Now, they are crossing the line. They have contributed greatly to the demise of GM and Ford, as well as the airline industry, among others. I'm not saying get rid of them, but rather some of their powers should be limited. Unions should NEVER be able to control a company.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

And you wonder why outsourcing is happening. Do you really want that, because we will be 100% service based real quick if we implemented your plan.