Union - Destroying American Business

[jdoggg12]

No flame wars, but an intelligent debate over the whole union issie.

IMO, unions are going to continue hurting American business untill they are completely gone (not that it'll ever happen). I worked as a butcher for Vons (safeway) for 5 years during college. I was a member of the UFCW. I hated having to be a part of the union. Sure, the pay was better b/c the store was unionized, but it also killed 90% of the incentive to work harder. Promotions, time off, etc were based on seniority.... lazier workers than I were getting promotions b/c they had been there longer!

My father is a corporate VP of HR. He worked for a company for 25+ years and it was an amazing company b/c it treated all of the employees very very well. In 2001 his company was facing a worker strike b/c they weren't willing to increase the factory worker pay as much as they wanted (the line workers/floor sweepers were making 13-19/hr). The strike killed the company. They had to sell b/c of competition from China. The workers didnt care... they wanted their raise... what did it end up costing them? Their jobs, the new company fired them all and was willing to hire them back at 30% lower pay and no union.


IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

 

[compuwiz1]

I concur.

Unions paralize American business. The company managers are not the boss, the unions are. Union people are generally the first ones you always hear saying things like, "it's not my job".
Also, it doesn't matter if the work is done, or not, a union employee will just clock out, and leave.
Unions promote overpaid, overbenefitted, lazy, unaccountable people. I'm not blaming the people who are members of a union, for they are just working within the parameters of their membership.

 

[jimkyser]

You should probably post this in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=52&threadid=2004383&enterthread=y

 

[Tom]

unions aren't responsible for lazy workers. Bad management is.

It's also unlikely that "the strike" killed your Father's company. What is likely is you heard one side of an argument, you obviously don't think much of the workers. (floor sweepers ?)

Sounds more likely the previous owners wanted to cash out, and the new owners are part of the breed of management that equates slave labor with money in their pocket. A short sided policy that doesn't lead anywhere.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
...
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.
...

What's your basis for this claim? Obviously there are negative side effects of unions, but it doesn't necessarily follow that unions are therefore totally worthless. Let's not forget, unions came about because of some pretty bad stuff on the part of businesses, what makes you think the average company has gotten any cuddlier and friendlier since then? After all, many large companies are outsourcing to countries like China, where "worker rights" is the punchline to a joke. Given the chance, don't you think they'd go back to when blue collar work was like that in the US as well?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12



IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I concur.

Unions paralize American business. The company managers are not the boss, the unions are. Union people are generally the first ones you always hear saying things like, "it's not my job".
Also, it doesn't matter if the work is done, or not, a union employee will just clock out, and leave.
Unions promote overpaid, overbenefitted, lazy, unaccountable people. I'm not blaming the people who are members of a union, for they are just working within the parameters of their membership.

Do you think unions have superpowers ? The conditions you describe aren't created by unions, they can be created by bad contracts and attitudes on both sides. But the union isn't any more responsible for that than the business.

The only thing business has to worry about concerning unions, is the same thing that ought to concern them about every other aspect of business, their own incompetence.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: Tom
unions aren't responsible for lazy workers. Bad management is.

It's also unlikely that "the strike" killed your Father's company. What is likely is you heard one side of an argument, you obviously don't think much of the workers. (floor sweepers ?)

Sounds more likely the previous owners wanted to cash out, and the new owners are part of the breed of management that equates slave labor with money in their pocket. A short sided policy that doesn't lead anywhere.

Yes, the strike DID kill the company. Their biggest disadvantage when faced with the competition from china was labor cost. They were paying well above market value for their employees as it was. The industry as a whole (vegetable dehydration) is facing stiff global competition and American labor is very expensive.


And yes, floor sweepers. I did an internship at the company as a production supervisor and there were employees who's sole role was to sweep the fllors of spilt product. They made 14.50/hr.

It was a private company and the owners were very proud of their company. They most certainly did not want to sell it, but it was either sell or go bankrupt. They had plants in the US, Mexico, Spain, and a couple others in europe... the US plants were 1.5-2.5x as expensive as any other of their plants, but were necessary for availability of the plants

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: Tom
unions aren't responsible for lazy workers. Bad management is.

It's also unlikely that "the strike" killed your Father's company. What is likely is you heard one side of an argument, you obviously don't think much of the workers. (floor sweepers ?)

Sounds more likely the previous owners wanted to cash out, and the new owners are part of the breed of management that equates slave labor with money in their pocket. A short sided policy that doesn't lead anywhere.

Yes, the strike DID kill the company. Their biggest disadvantage when faced with the competition from china was labor cost. They were paying well above market value for their employees as it was. The industry as a whole (vegetable dehydration) is facing stiff global competition and American labor is very expensive.


And yes, floor sweepers. I did an internship at the company as a production supervisor and there were employees who's sole role was to sweep the fllors of spilt product. They made 14.50/hr.

I don't question there were floor sweepers; my point is how you feel about them.

As far as your reasoning on what killed the company, it doesn't make sense. If the owners were willing to go to China, they would have whether there was a union or not. Non-union wages in the USA are not competitive with wages in China.

All that's required is putting one self's material possessions above one's country, neighborhood, and a willingness to rape China while living in the country defended by the men buried in those graves in Arlington National Cemetery.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12



IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.


Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

QFT

 

[Red Dawn]

I wouldn't want to work as a skilled laborer in Construction and not belong to a Union. I've worked both sides of that fence and I can testify that non Union Construction Workers get the shaft big time. Their work isn't up to par with Union Workers either. I can also testify that if you are a Union Carpenter the Unions won't save your job if you are a Slacker.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: Tom
unions aren't responsible for lazy workers. Bad management is.

It's also unlikely that "the strike" killed your Father's company. What is likely is you heard one side of an argument, you obviously don't think much of the workers. (floor sweepers ?)

Sounds more likely the previous owners wanted to cash out, and the new owners are part of the breed of management that equates slave labor with money in their pocket. A short sided policy that doesn't lead anywhere.

Yes, the strike DID kill the company. Their biggest disadvantage when faced with the competition from china was labor cost. They were paying well above market value for their employees as it was. The industry as a whole (vegetable dehydration) is facing stiff global competition and American labor is very expensive.


And yes, floor sweepers. I did an internship at the company as a production supervisor and there were employees who's sole role was to sweep the fllors of spilt product. They made 14.50/hr.

I don't question there were floor sweepers; my point is how you feel about them.

As far as your reasoning on what killed the company, it doesn't make sense. If the owners were willing to go to China, they would have whether there was a union or not. Non-union wages in the USA are not competitive with wages in China.

All that's required is putting one self's material possessions above one's country, neighborhood, and a willingness to rape China while living in the country defended by the men buried in those graves in Arlington National Cemetery.

You don't know how i feel about them. I don't feel one way or the other, i used that term to paint a picture of someone who sweeps the floor making 30k/year... and feels they're underpaid.

They didn't want to go to China. That would have been prohibitively expensive to build a new plant there.

Non union wages are considerably less than union wages... which is why business are moving out of the US for production... its hard WITHOUT a union, let alone WITH one.


I fail to see what you're getting at, i'm looking back on this 5 years later and just seeing it from a practical standpoint. Are you saying unions are a good thing and theres no way it couldve been a main reason for the demise of the company. You feel that i dont know what i'm talking about, even though i worked there for a while, even though i read all the newspaper articles, even though i had many open discussions, even though i latet was forced to join the same union that drove that business away......

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
Union - Destroying American Business

Your entire premise is faulty if you group all "American business" or all unions as single, opposing entities.

It's impossible to toss all businesses or all unions into single, opposing groups. As with people, in general, there are good and bad "American businesses," and their overall behavior with respect to civic and social responsiblity to their communities covers the spectrum from saintly to monstrous.

There are well known American businesses who have used their financial muscle to enrich their upper management at the expense of their salaried employees. There are those, such as some companies in energy and transportation, who have used their wealth to block environmental legislation. There are some, including some large pharmaceutical companies who have acted to maintain huge profits at the expense of the American public by impeding governmental evaluation and oversight of the safety of the products they sell and failing to compensate those who have been harmed thought their negligence or intentional behavior. Then, there are some, such as tobacco companies, who have enriched themselves through unconscionable behavior, selling deadly products that remain legal only because they have used their wealth to corrupt public officials from top to bottom. Add to that the large parasitic companies whose only function is to maximize their bottom line through acquisition, repackaging and disposing of other corporate assets, often through nothing more than "creative" accounting, with no regard for the effect of their actions on their employees or the public.

There are also plenty of examples of companies who flourish while practicing civil responsiblity and proactively marketing creative contributions to society.

The same is true thoughout the history of unions. There are plenty of examples of both good and bad behavior. The same power and resources of mass that enables them to do good can be abused in the same ways as coroporate power.

Conceptually, collective action through unionis is one of the few tools available to many working people to provide benefits to their membership, such as group health insurance, that may not be available through any other current business structure and to combat the wrongs done by malevolent employers.

There are also plenty of examples of businesses working with unions to create workplaces that benefit both executives and labor while ccreating products and delivering services that provide positive contributions to the larger society.

They're not all that way, but it's a better outlook and goal than assuming that "business" and "labor" must be in opposition to each other.

 

[umbrella39]

IMO unions had their time and place (in relation to the auto industry). The year 2007 is neither. Just look to SE Michigan to see how wonderfully unions have affected the Big 3.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
IMO unions had their time and place (in relation to the auto industry). The year 2007 is neither. Just look to SE Michigan to see how wonderfully unions have affected the Big 3.

You have got to be kidding me. The big 3 or little 3 hurt themselves by never changing to market trends as quickly as their Japanese competitors and becoming to used to the government ( tit ) contracts they received and the status quo.

There are so many reasons other then unions as to why the big 3 auto makers in the U.S. have been affectively diminished in their business market position.

Never mind though lets blame the Unions and then the Mexicans companies hire after they get rid of the unions. Let's never blame the companies themselves and their flawed leadership running around in suits who bail out with golden parachutes.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I wouldn't want to work as a skilled laborer in Construction and not belong to a Union. I've worked both sides of that fence and I can testify that non Union Construction Workers get the shaft big time. Their work isn't up to par with Union Workers either. I can also testify that if you are a Union Carpenter the Unions won't save your job if you are a Slacker.

Many of the subs on the project I was on were union, and I was impressed with the work ethic. They didn't stand around talking, someone on the crew would chew their ass if someone left their work area without good reason, they took their breaks and lunch right on time, started work and left work punctually, and generally werel ahead of projected times for completion of various jobs they had bid for.

When there were delays, the fault was almost always my companys' poor scheduling and co-ordination, resulting in subs being in the way of one another, or having the area totally clogged with a particular sub-contractors materials.

The only knock against any of them, was some of the union guys were serious whiners/crybabies about the work enviroment. After all, it is a construction site. occassionally there will be dust and other effects of the process to contend with, that fans, sweeping compound, ect. isn't going to entirely alleviate. Wear the uncomfortable respirator or stfu about it. I guess every company has workers like that, but none of the non-union guys seemed to find anything noteworthy about the W.E. beyond the heat, and that is just Florida for ya.

Overall, I'd have to say I was impressed with the union guys&gals. The self-policing among the workers really seemed to keep everyone on task and productive. Something I couldn't say about the non-union subs on the site.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: umbrella39
IMO unions had their time and place (in relation to the auto industry). The year 2007 is neither. Just look to SE Michigan to see how wonderfully unions have affected the Big 3.

You have got to be kidding me. The big 3 or little 3 hurt themselves by never changing to market trends as quickly as their Japanese competitors and becoming to used to the government ( tit ) contracts they received and the status quo.

There are so many reasons other then unions as to why the big 3 auto makers in the U.S. have been affectively diminished in their business market position.

Never mind though lets blame the Unions and then the Mexicans companies hire after they get rid of the unions. Let's never blame the companies themselves and their flawed leadership running around in suits who bail out with golden parachutes.

Once again, i have to ask... are you saying the Unions aren't a hindrance?

 

[Engineer]

While I typically don't like unions (have been around 3 and I personally think they all stunk), I think American business is doing just fine (vs. OP's title). Profits are at an all time high of 10% GDP (last time close was right before Great Depression). No matter what you do with regards to unions, cheap offshore labor is going to take down US manufacturing (and that includes automation because automation is starting to work its way throughout the rest of the "cheap labor" world).

I wouldn't be suprised that unions would eventually make a comeback when the gap (income, wealth, etc) grows further (not sure where that point is but history might repeat itself at some point).

 

[fskimospy]

The problem here is not that there are too many unions in the US, but that there aren't enough of them elsewhere. Because businesses have globalized and labor hasn't, labor is at a distinct disadvantage because there is always another country that businesses can go to and exploit their workers more cheaply.

Workers being exploited elsewhere doesn't mean that they should be exploited here, it means it should be stopped there. Unions are absolutely essential as a bulwark against corporate excesses. The funny thing here is that somehow the right has gotten people to blame the unions for this problem, not the people actually responsible for it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jdoggg12
IMO unions are no longer necessary to ensure that workers are not subjected to unfair practices, but to cripple the American businesses' ability to compete in a global economy that is now facing competition from China.

Discuss.

move you and your family to China and your problem will be solved.

Exactly in fact I propose the opposite.

Every single American worker protected under Union.

End of debate.

 

[fallensight]

Lack of Unions is why we have a 'race to the bottom' for pay and benifits for any non-upper management possiton. You think unions cause lazy people, you havnt been around enough. The company I work for(no unions in my state) has 'pay scales' for possitions. Once you get to the cap, NOTHING will get you more money. Period. ANd the scales are low enough that nearly everyone for a job is at the cap. Now when you have everyone at a cap,no bonus availible either, you now have a situation where the people only work hard enough to not get fired(which means just show up, more or less on time, and dont steal anything)

As the Unions have slowly faded away you have been left with the train wreck we currently have that calls itself American Buisenes. Wages for the average worker have stagnated while the CEOs have had thier pay more than double. Vacation gets more scarce, you have to work more years to get the weeks. Health care plans shrivel or vanish. Retirement, you might get a 401k, but that is your money alone most of the time.

Bad managment is ruining things. Just take a look at the CEO pay. CHeck out what managers are pulling for bonuses(usually more that what the average worker makes a year). Companies complain that workers are not loyal to them anymore, well the companies are not loyal to the workers. DOes your company reward you if it does better this year, hit or beat it's goals? Odds are unless you are a member of the management the answer is no. You get the same either way, but the guys sitting at the top reap all the rewards of your work.

Compete agaisnt China you say. Race to the bottom I say. If the companies in this country could get away with it, you would be making $1 an hour working 12 hour days seven days a week. Dont believe me? read some american history from the early 1900s. If the executives could have it thier way, things would go back to that.

 

[jdoggg12]

I wouldn't be working for $1/hr.... i put myself through school to better myself... as did my father, who's mexican and started life working in the fields with the rest of his family.

Why work hard when you can work union... as long as you put your hours in, you get your raises, promotions, etc.

 

[SKoprowski]

It's not just the big 3- a memo from Toyota was leaked this week indicating their frustration with labor costs in the US- and they are not unionized. You can't possibly compete with labor in another country when their cost of living is over 3x less than the USA- doesn't matter that kind of business you do.

 

[compuwiz1]

Wal*Mart would not be what is is, if it were union shop.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Wal*Mart would not be what is is, if it were union shop.

The flip side is that the American economic muscle would not be what it is without previous union power. Unions built up wages in this country regardless of how one feels about them now.

It's a good point that unions around the rest of the world might just indeed level the playing field at some point.