Unionized jobs offer any room for salary negotation?

[zCypher]

I know there's another salary negotiation thread, but did not want to derail it, so here I am. I'm curious as to how likely it is for any negotiation headroom to exist in a unionized position. There are clearly defined pay scales in the collective agreement, but the problem is there are no defined increases other than very little "cost of living" increases which usually don't even match the actual cost of living. Basically every other part of the company (still unionized parts) have much better compensation and significant/regular increases.

I went through interview and have been offered the position, but have yet to sit down and sign anything. I was happy to have the offer and said I was still interested, but we have yet to talk about anything pay related. Very confident that I am by far the best candidate they have for this position.

I could go to other departments, but I actually like this job and the people too. If the pay was closer to what I think it should be, I'd probably stay a lot longer. If I get the minimum, I'm likely to still accept but move on to something better within the next year.

Am I just dreaming thinking that salary can be negotiated in a unionized position? Any tips?

 

[Pr0d1gy]

In my experience with unions they are pretty useless, but I can't comment on the salary negotiations because the wages were locked...so no negotiation.

 

[rivan]

In my experience with unions they are pretty useless, but I can't comment on the salary negotiations because the wages were locked...so no negotiation.

I can say from personal experience you CAN be paid more than union scale in a union shop. Whether or not you can negotiate it depends greatly on your personal relationship with your company, as well as the union's relationship with the company.

 

[kranky]

If there is a salary RANGE for the position, I would expect you can negotiate your starting pay as long as it is within that range. If you are eligible for merit increases then that would be on top of any COLA increase. If there are no merit increases provided for in the contract, then you only get COLA increases.

 

[Ausm]

I can say from personal experience you CAN be paid more than union scale in a union shop. Whether or not you can negotiate it depends greatly on your personal relationship with your company, as well as the union's relationship with the company.

^^

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yes the CWA and most other unions are all about members being paid more.

 

[zCypher]

Just checked the agreement, and most other roles show a table with a progression between levels, even with a footnote about increases happening either by accreditation or by meeting job expectations. For this role however, the table is only comprised of minimum and maximum, does not show any progressions nor makes any mention of how one would ever get any increase.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

I can say from personal experience you CAN be paid more than union scale in a union shop. Whether or not you can negotiate it depends greatly on your personal relationship with your company, as well as the union's relationship with the company.

I was a new hire and the union had almost no sway. :\ Oh well, at least I don't work there anymore.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Progression would be at the company discrecion

 

[notposting]

As others have said, it all depends on the company (and possibly whether anything is written into to that particular local union chapter contract with them).

I work in union electrical, and the contractors can certainly do whatever they want. They can do it relatively easily by classifying someone as a foreman (which has its own set pay requirements), possibly adding perks like a service van with gas card, sometimes busy work in the shop when jobs are slow. And I have known of people who got paid above scale, whether having skills or certifications in obscure areas, or being a "known quantity" in regards to running large jobs (the alternative being that person takes a layoff as soon they don't have a days work for them, and get picked up by another contractor).

But all unions, companies, and their contracts are different. Obviously with a lower pay scale they are hoping some other aspects can make up for it (benefits, retirement, holidays and overtime spelled out, some sort of security in that a pissy manager shouldn't be able to fire you at will, etc). If not...keep looking for something better

 

[jme5343]

Am I just dreaming thinking that salary can be negotiated in a unionized position? Any tips?

In my experience running union shops, yes, you are dreaming. Of course my industry may differ than yours.

The union, while designed to help you achieve a higher overall wage, sometimes bolsters the wages of those less competent, while holding back the wage of those who are superior. So, often times, those who are the superior candidates eventually leave the union and often become managers.

Trust me, that's not always the case, though. I have also seen unions protect good workers from personal grudges and out-and-out vendettas, based on anything from the person's last name to their perceived attitude, regardless of their work habits. So I'mnot totally anti-union. It's actually a bit easier running a union shop, as there few gray areas. It's either in the contract or it isn't.

I've given my non union guys $2-$3 in wage increases in the last two years, while the union contracted employees get their annual cost of living bump - equivalent to about $0.75. They're locked in for another five years of pre-determined bumps.

 

[Ausm]

I was a new hire and the union had almost no sway. :\ Oh well, at least I don't work there anymore.

You must worked for a management friendly "Union" then.

 

[rivan]

Just checked the agreement, and most other roles show a table with a progression between levels, even with a footnote about increases happening either by accreditation or by meeting job expectations. For this role however, the table is only comprised of minimum and maximum, does not show any progressions nor makes any mention of how one would ever get any increase.

They won't just give it to you without you pushing for it, and the "maximum" may or may not actually mean anything. As a rule of thumb, the larger the company, the lower your chances of negotiating something beyond the 'maximum'. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Again, from personal experience, 'maximums' for a position can be skirted by creating a new position/title just for you. The ranges are mostly for the accountants.

Take care, however, as pushing too hard for an exceptional raise can really backfire on you.

 

[rivan]

You must worked for a management friendly "Union" then.

The best unions work WITH management. Of course, the best management works WITH unions. It all falls to shit and becomes the bad stereotype of unions when the relationship becomes adversarial, and it often becomes adversarial when either a) accountants get involved or b) union members get lazy or greedy.

 

[Ausm]

The best unions work WITH management. Of course, the best management works WITH unions. It all falls to shit and becomes the bad stereotype of unions when the relationship becomes adversarial, and it often becomes adversarial when either a) accountants get involved or b) union members get lazy or greedy.

The only reason why Unions get demonized by one side has to do in reality with Political donations but their sheepal buy into the stereotypes. I do agree that both sides have to work together.

 

[rivan]

The only reason why Unions get demonized by one side has to do in reality with Political donations but their sheepal buy into the stereotypes. I do agree that both sides have to work together.

Oh c'mon - you've never seen a Union overreach? There is such a thing as asking for too much - and to jme5343's point, unions do absolutely protect twats when sometimes they shouldn't.

 

[jme5343]

The best unions work WITH management. Of course, the best management works WITH unions. It all falls to shit and becomes the bad stereotype of unions when the relationship becomes adversarial, and it often becomes adversarial when either a) accountants get involved or b) union members get lazy or greedy.

Spot on.

 

[Ausm]

Oh c'mon - you've never seen a Union overreach? There is such a thing as asking for too much - and to jme5343's point, unions do absolutely protect twats when sometimes they shouldn't.

Equally as much as management over reach, yes.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Ausm is correct, Union contracts only get big because A) someone at the negotiating table is lazy or B) Management over steps its bounds and tries to manipulate or violate the agreement.
Assuming all parties are responsible it works fine. Honestly my experience dealing with the CWA the Stewart's hated people that could not perform their jobs correctly almost as much as I did. They get performance incentives and they hate the internal member to member conflict it brings. Their main focus was are they being given the right support & tools to be productive and am I applying any rules consistently.

 

[unokitty]

I know there's another salary negotiation thread, but did not want to derail it, so here I am. I'm curious as to how likely it is for any negotiation headroom to exist in a unionized position. There are clearly defined pay scales in the collective agreement, but the problem is there are no defined increases other than very little "cost of living" increases which usually don't even match the actual cost of living. Basically every other part of the company (still unionized parts) have much better compensation and significant/regular increases.

I went through interview and have been offered the position, but have yet to sit down and sign anything. I was happy to have the offer and said I was still interested, but we have yet to talk about anything pay related. Very confident that I am by far the best candidate they have for this position.

I could go to other departments, but I actually like this job and the people too. If the pay was closer to what I think it should be, I'd probably stay a lot longer. If I get the minimum, I'm likely to still accept but move on to something better within the next year.

Am I just dreaming thinking that salary can be negotiated in a unionized position? Any tips?

When I was a Teamster, I got paid the same as everyone else.

Though if the company has any flexibility in terms of job titles, they might be able to do something for you. For example, they might start you as a senior dock worker rather that a junior dock worker ... but its probably not prudent to expect very much flexibility.

Best of luck,
uno

 

[notposting]

One of my biggest gripes is protecting people who ought to be shown the door. In construction it's a lot less of an issue as those who can't pull their own weight will quickly get canned, but it can be a problem for many fields.

Worked with a guy who was a steward for the UAW at Chrysler, he jumped ship after 15 years because he was sick of the (very few) ignorant, lazy, drunken sorts who would show up inebriated, not wanting to work, etc etc. They would get pulled off the line but be back the next day.

Last couple years local news crews have caught a few of these jackasses out drinking and getting high on their breaks (and after Chrysler got US funds of course). But it's something like 20 out 2000 that they caught, and everyone gets painted with the same brush. But then I'm sure the UAW didn't help show these fools the door, even worse since they are a hazard to the rest of the workers.

 

[zCypher]

Well there are various levels or grades that increment the pay, with II, III, IV, V after the title for example. Problem is at this office they don't give any different titles. There is only one title for this position, with a minimum and maximum, and no defined progression. The same job in other bargaining units have proper progressions with appropriate titles.

I don't expect them to change my title or bend the rules as they are clearly written. However I can't see anything in here that says they can't start me a bit higher than minimum. I recall having a conversation with one union rep who said the manager is able to give an increase (obviously if budget permits).

So then, if the range is let's say $19-$27, would it not be reasonable to start at $21 or $22 given a clear advantage over other applicants? Remember at this point they have verbally made the offer and I just need to sign in order to make it all official.

I'd likely accept the position regardless since I like the work but a higher starting wage would keep me there longer.

 

[zCypher]

Any other input?

 

[notposting]

About the only other thing to remember is that if you could get something higher, if a manager or bean counter buried somewhere decides to take it away, as long as you are still within the union contracted range they won't be able to help.

 

[zCypher]

Well I got my offer letter, and to my surprise the offer is already higher than the minimum that everyone complains about. This has caught me off guard! I probably have less grounds to ask for more hehe.